NYT Article on the Airlines...Worst Yet to Come...

[MedFlyer]

oldxfr8dog,

You have NO CLUE what you are talking about. First of all, we only have 8 777s, so anyone who was a 777 Capt was very very senior. (compared to AA having over 30 777s) Second, how much money do you think each passenger contributed from each ticket per hour? Maybe 80 cents. So, on a trip to Paris the passengers each paid around $7 each (out of $300-400 each way) for the Captain's experience.

So according to you, mainline pilot pay on the 777 has NO impact on DL's financial's and ability to acquire aircraft. However, according to you, Comair's "high" pilot pay is the reason Comair isn't getting any planes.

Why does pilot pay only play a factor for regionals and not mainline? Why the double standard?

Your logic (or lack thereof) explains why mainline got such a crappy contract.

 

[BID]

{I am sure there are plenty of nice Skywesters. Great. But, they were among the first to ACCEPT growth for the same pay, and that was planes up to 99 seats for 50 seat wages. }

Above quoted by the General.

Air Indy Airbus pay $125.00 6 yr captain. America West pays all the same 757, 737-200, Airbus, etc. 6 year captain $125.00 same as Air Indy What is the difference in number of seats between a 737-200 and a 757?

Mesa pays $69.00 per hour for a 90 seat aircraft at a 6 year captain rate.
Their 70 seat is $64.00 per hour vs SkyWest $65.00 per hour 50 seat rate.

CHQ pays $68.00 per hour for the EMB-170 6 year captain rate.

(all values taken from airlinepilotpay.com)

Now General, you are focused on SkyWest! Guess what, we don't have anything bigger than a 70 seat aircraft. To top it off, our 18 months are over. We are in the process of changing these pay rates. Difficult, but I truly believe our pilot group will not accept anything, but a split 50 and 70 seat rate.

BTW, I am curious what you guys pay for the 757 and the 767-300? Is it the same pay rate ??????????????????

Also, if you think you are done with pay cuts, you might be in for a surprise. Who will you blame 2005?

 

[AMRCostUnit]

If the pilots at an airline worked for free and the company still loses money does NOT suggest to me that pilot pay is a problem.

There is no correlation between pilot pay and large money losing management decisions.

Unfortunately, we employees get stuck holding the empty bag.

There has been a transfer of flying from the majors to the regionals. But the pay and QOL is NOT being transfered. Well, it is; but not to any line employees...

The regional guys are trapped because the music at the majors has stopped and there is no chair for them and probably won't be for a long, long time. There so many highly experienced guys on the street that the majors that are hiring can be very choosy.

The only profitable airlines flying today have one thing in common: they do NOT have RJ subsidiaries. AirTran tried it for a while and abandoned it. It is very difficult to make any money flying jets smaller than 100 seats. That is why "fee-for-departure" and "capacity purchase agreements" are necessary. AMR has set up AA to pay Eagle "cost plus 8%" for each of their flights. That is why it is said Eagle is "profitable". Yes, AA keeps the revenue but the 10K shows a $250 million shortfall from that arrangement.

Management's endgame here is to get the largest aircraft to be flown by the lowest cost pilots. Not that they CAN'T make money with higher cost group; they can make MORE MONEY (for bonuses) with the lower cost group. Nothing personal; just good business. They'll take a loss for now (what the heck, the employees will pay for it, why not?) until they get it optimized and it will pay them back large.

Take a good look at SwissAir. The CrossAir RJ subsidiary took over ALL of the flying. That's where they want to be.

Did I miss anything?

Unit

 

[General Lee]

BID,


I am glad you KNOW we will get another pay cut in 2005. By the way, what are the Lotto numbers for the Georgia lottery? (or the Pick 5)

Ah, you got that the 757 and 767-300 wages are the same. Good research. But, they just came down from being more on the FO seat in the 5th or 6th year than an AA Captain on the 777. You can pull that argument both ways. I think the 757 wages were brought UP to the 767-300 wages. So, in reality, our 757 wages are great, thanks to them bringing them UP to the 767-300 wages. What a good deal! That is what happened in our 2000 Contract. Our 757 pay rates were less than the 767, and then they made them equal, without lowering the 767's.(actually increasing it) Good try.


Now, you guys are different. You guys went for growth, and your senior guys, who have "been around" overwhelmingly voted it down, to be out voted by every junior FO and Captain searching for a better quality of life. My friend over there could not believe it passed. Now it is time to see if you guys will do the same. I predict industry lowest A319 rates. (for growth, darnit) Good luck, and I hope that is not the case and you get paid what you deserve. Yes, you currently only have 50 and 70 seaters, but you agreed to seats up to 99 I believe? What is next? Gerry Atkin is salivating. Isn't that Indy Air Airbus pay rate for an 18 year Captain? Are you close to 18 years at Skywest?

And again, what are those Lotto numbers?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[46Driver]

Now, you guys are different. You guys went for growth, and your senior guys, who have "been around" overwhelmingly voted it down, to be out voted by every junior FO and Captain searching for a better quality of life.

Bye Bye--General Lee

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

If its not multi-engine PIC time, then its worthless being an FO. The hiring departments at the big airlines only want multi-engine PIC - until you change that, don't expect anything else to change.

 

[altscap]

I am sure there are plenty of nice Skywesters. Great. But, they were among the first to ACCEPT growth for the same pay, and that was planes up to 99 seats for 50 seat wages. All of their senior pilots knew this was a crock, but all of the junior guys and junior Captains apparently voted for growth, not seeing that they initiated a trend. That trend will keep their salaries down for decades. Sure, we at Delta just gave up huge pay also, but we actually brought the "bar" up to the highest it has ever been for 3 full years. We had 777 Captains making over $320 an hour. Not anymore. Was the threat of bankruptcy looming over the Skywesters' heads? Nope. What is next for Skywest? A318s for RJ wages? Probably. I bet the senior guys over there are banging their heads against the walls.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

Just in case all you "bigleaguers" have forgotten what it's like at the regional level, here's a taste. Mesa IS getting 737's-rumor has it there are at least 2-200's on the property already. Expect to see them flying under the old freedumb ticket (no, that hasn't gone away, just lurking in the shadows like some corrupt spider waiting to leap on an unsuspecting industry). Rumor also has it that mgmt and Mesa ALPA have reach an agreement on payscales. This has not been made public knowledge yet but at one point jonathan Orenstien was expecting 50 seat rj f/o's to fly a 737 FOR THE SAME SCALE!!!! Captains to be paid at 20% over our 86 seat scale or about $72 an hour for me, yeah I know this is well below the average. Here's the problem. Orenstien has no problem about doing an end-run around ALPA (they don't adequately represent the regionals anymore anyway) and hiring crews off the street. You WILL see guys with 1000-1500tt with sh@%-eating grins on their faces flying a 737 at $20 an hour just for the "priveledge" of being on a narrow body. JO always gets things up and running and then by the time ALPA gets the legal side up and running to stop him, it's two years later, freedumb has already been inthe air for a year and the precious pic time has been pushed back yet another 12 months. It is unfortunant, but someday you will see a 737 execute a tail slide, hopefully into a body of water isntead of turning one or more homes into a smoking crater.

FN FAL - You know, mesa is ripe for a class-action..we've got harassment, hostile work envirnoment, unsafe scheduling practices (oh wait never mind, they're legal), emotional distress related to threats against our livelyhood, discrimination against single mothers (possibly), and more convicted felons than college graduations in the upper echelon.

I used to work the cargo side aof things for DAL and dreamed of making to the right seat of a 757. Now it looks like I'll be flying an international contract gig or leaving the industry intirelly before I develop an ulcer. So as bad as it is at your level, remember that your pay cut of 50% that leaves you with $165 an hour on the 777, and being treated like a human being and an asset to your company is light years ahead of what we are dealing with. Until you've slept on an airplane for 2 hours in the middle of the night because the company is too cheap to spend $200 for hotel rooms, I really don't see what you have to complain about.

My apologies if I got off the subject or mispelled a few words in my ranting.

 

[fokkers&beer]

Welcome to the United States, we are a country that believes in the FREE MARKET. Maybe you have heard of it. De regulation has finally taken hold. If your old and inefficient airline can't keep up, maybe it is time for it to go to sleep. It is a free market and the strong contenders will survive. People have spoken and they want cheap tickets. The consumer does not care what your QOL is, they just want to get from point a to point b as cheap as possible. When the old inefficient carriers have closed their doors, and everyones wage has unfortunately declined the cycle will be complete. Welcome to Economics 201, a required college course for most degrees, maybe you took it.

 

[JohnDoe]

quote:
"Welcome to the United States, we are a country that believes in the FREE MARKET. "


Horsepoop! We don't have as "free" of a free market economy as you would like to think.

If we did, companies wouldn't be allowed to "hide" in chapter 11 protection for years. They would be allowed to wither and die if they can't make it. A judge wouldn't be allowed to step in and say that creditors cannot repo aircraft that aren't being paid for. What's up with that in this supposed free market economy??



"De regulation has finally taken hold. If your old and inefficient airline can't keep up, maybe it is time for it to go to sleep."

Thats funny..........a couple should already have gone "to sleep" but the government allows them to stay around via their bankruptcy laws.

 

[General Lee]

Altscap,


I have been there. I flew E120s for Midway connection out of MDW in the early to mid 90's, and I have been paid crap and I have done continuous duty overnights and decided to sleep in the frozen plane rather than drive 30 minutes to a hotel and have 4 hours of sleep and then drive back again. I have been there. The reason I brought this up is because we are in the middle of a spiral, and watching the regionals go down the tube when they aren't paid enough already is disturbing. Skywest started it by accpeting those rates in exchange for growth, and those FO's wanted the ability to upgrade quicker, which would help their then current situation. The junior Captains just wanted more growth so they could get a line faster and improve their lifestyle. It was a recipe for disaster, and their CEO knew it. They threatened them that they would not get the United codeshare again, and the next morning after they signed the new deal, at 7am, the United lawyers signed the deal too. Do you think that wasn't the plan anyway? What a joke. As far as Mesa and Freedum go, I have talked to a Mesa captain recently and he said the same, the FOs on the 737 would be paid RJ wages. He said they would NOT go for it there. We shall see.

Yeah, our payscales aren't that bad, and our 777 captains still make over $200 an hour. The problem is we don't have that many 777s and it would be tought to ever hold that. I am not complaining about my wage, and I wish it were like it used to be, but we will have to wait a while and then try to regain some of that again someday. It may take a while. I have 20 years to go hopefully, and maybe it will be close....?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[BID]

Yes, SkyWest started this whole mess and now we are flying 90 seat aircraft for $69.00 per hour. No wait or is that Mesa flying them for $69.00 per hour.

General, I do not know if you guys are going to get any more pay cuts. You are right about that. I sincerely hope not. But to say SkyWest started this all for the sake of growth is a bit narrow minded and one sided. Just before the vote took place there was a threat Mesa would be flying more for UAL, and if we did not become "competitive" we could stand to lose on UAL contract flying. Many were afraid, especially a lot of the EMB guys on the West coast (UAL flying), so the vote passed. I was also surprised how many senior pilots voted yes.

The scare tactic worked and early the next morning an order for more jets was announced. Big surprise! UAL was already getting upset we took too long to make the announcement and the pilot group felt cheated. The point is we did not start this mess. Maybe you guys did with scope clause? Maybe it was the low cost carriers? Maybe it was the weak union at Mesa? Maybe it is UAL oursourcing to just about every regional out there, looking for the lowest bidder.

Let us see what happens in the next month. Maybe we can fix the pay rates between the 50 and 70 seat aircraft, but until we actually get anything bigger than a 70 seat aircraft, which by the way I pray we never do, I am not going to sweat it. I actually think it is silly to have rates for aircraft we do not have or intend to get in the near future. Anything bigger than 70 seats has to stay at the major airline level, you guys better not screw that up.

 

[altscap]

General Lee, I was just using your quote as a reference, nothing personal. In a different world I'd be asking you for a referal to get back to DL.



I have also heard that skywest has been talking to Airbus so it may not be too far into the future before the regionals become the next LCC's.

The reason mesa caved on the last contract is because alpa never eally did anything successful to stop mgmt from launching freedom..next thing we know pink slips are flying and the only to save our jobs from street scabs is to take the contract with a scope clause preventing this from happening in the future...of course, mgmt always finds a way around the contract.

Now the AWA crews are mad at us because they think they should be flying the 86 seaters. And they probably should be, but their mgmt didn't acquire the equipment.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

oldxfr8dog,

You have NO CLUE what you are talking about. First of all, we only have 8 777s, so anyone who was a 777 Capt was very very senior. (compared to AA having over 30 777s) Second, how much money do you think each passenger contributed from each ticket per hour? Maybe 80 cents. So, on a trip to Paris the passengers each paid around $7 each (out of $300-400 each way) for the Captain's experience. Also, do you think our Delta 777 Captains sold the fuel hedges and lost an extra $600 million this year? Oh, that's right---I remember one of them saying "hey, let's pay more for gas because it is fun...." Come on. You sound like management's best friend.

As far as our furloughs go, yeah, they probably are banging their heads. But, a chapter 11 would have made their stay out even longer, because more would have joined them. And, do you have a better idea when 500 senior guys want to retire and only have to give 24 hours notice? That sounds like it could park every widebody, and that would really help our financial situation. Do you have a better idea? At least those guys will eventually go, and why do I know that? Because the IRS said so---they don't like the double dipping much either. Taking your lump sum and still working kinda irks the IRS, and a deal was made for a specific amount of time. Many of those retired guys are in their mid 50's, so actually the furloughs will come back sooner than if those guys stayed until they were 60. It sounded like the best deal for a bad situation. That $ucks, but the alternative was worse. Good night.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General, with all respect, you brought up how you raised the bar to that hourly rate, then you rebut my reply saying that it was only for 8 airplanes. Make up your mind.
I say the bar WAS raised for all DL a/c types. Obviously, that's good. Whether the rate could be sustained by the revenue is a different story. Management is screwing you? Well, what do you think the dues you pay are for? Really, it's not just for that magazine, it's not that good. I have lots of back issues. You need to take responsibility for your own contract. Management can ALWAYS leverage you by pointing at a company that pays less. Let them compare all they want, shut the a$$holes down, if you think the principle is worth the risk.
You brought the pax ticket price into this; that's a red herring. Hell, if you want to go down that road, let's talk about the 30-40% the government takes!
My point was, you shouldn't rag on the Skywest guys for accepting the pay they do. What do you want them to do? Not apply? Strike, so it won't deteriorate YOUR pay scale? You say you took a pay cut to avert CH. 11. Wise choice. Would it be smarter to accept a pay rate that would ensure the profitability and health of the company BEFORE it faced CH 11? I agree, management screw-ups can make the rank-and-file pay a moot question. I don't have an answer for that. Employees could take no pay and still ride it into the dirt as a result of bad management decisions. Same as every other business around.
And finally;
Those 500 guys should be phased out as soon as the training sched can accommodate their departure. Since there are no new-hires, they should have the time. That way, the furloughees would be back on property ASAP. And I don't give a sh*t for the "IRS position" regarding double-dipping. I'm thinking of those people trying to support their families. But then, I may be a little more sympathetic, having been "on the street" 3 times.
Thank you for an interesting conversation, General!

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Had ALPA converted themselves to a real union and insisted on a national seniority list where the individual pilot is employed by the union I think we could have avoided all these problems.

GP[/QUOTE]Yup, that's the logical thing.
Nope, it'll never happen.
In our lifetime...

 

[General Lee]

oldxfr8dog,


Maybe I was a little too harsh on my saying "You have no clue what you are talking about." Maybe you do. But, there are many things that have contributed to our shortage of cash, and our pilot costs have always been a fixed cost---in a contract for them to see and prepare for. If we are always flexible to their needs, they would be asking constantly, and that is why we have a contract. As I said, pilot pay did not aim this company towards Chap 11, but it didn't help the situation. I accept the pay cut, I do. I understand that we need to be competitive, and right now the company aint doing that great, and high pay rates won't help. And, you're right, it is a tight rope---are you willing to put your money where your mouth is and strike? That is dangerous for everyone involved, and most of the time pilots will balk. But, it really depends on the circumstances. When you have economic advisors that you hired that are telling you Delta really needs the cash, you will probably give it to them. But, Skywest, on the otherhand, didn't. They easily have the cash, and they were playing games with their people-----an example is the agreement the next morning by 7AM with the United lawyers. 7AM? They already knew that they would cave. They knew that the growth carrot would work, and what would have happened had they said no? The United contract would have probably gone ahead with them anyway. We at Delta did a good thing by raising the bar to the highest level and keeping it there for as long as we could. That can't be said of some other airlines, and that is what we are unfortunately facing today. That was my point. Take care.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[oldxfr8dog]

oldxfr8dog,


Maybe I was a little too harsh on my saying "You have no clue what you are talking about." Maybe you do.

Nope, you were right on target. I'm clueless...

Be safe.