NWA wants DOH

[FDJ2]

Those darn computers!


Bye Bye--General Lee

Garbage in, garbage out.

 

[Donsa320]

But didn't Red Book cry murder about their wide-body "career expectations"?

Oh, they did indeed and in fact they gave many Republic guys a very hard time in DC-10 transition. One of them left a tape recorder running in the sim break room and caught a conversation between a couple of red book instructors as to how they would make sure the green book pilot would fail his ride. The lawyers had a ball with that. Nasty times.

I would hope that this merger goes more smoothly but I would not bet on it. It is all up to the people involved on both sides.

 

[General Lee]

Oh, they did indeed and in fact they gave many Republic guys a very hard time in DC-10 transition. One of them left a tape recorder running in the sim break room and caught a conversation between a couple of red book instructors as to how they would make sure the green book pilot would fail his ride. The lawyers had a ball with that. Nasty times.

I would hope that this merger goes more smoothly but I would not bet on it. It is all up to the people involved on both sides.

True Don, and it all starts with the opening positions. They went one way with DOH (far left), and we could have gone the polar opposite and said "Staple." Instead, we threw in relative seniority with a small chunk at the bottom due to outgoing airplanes. You can't really say "let's find some middle ground" since they started far left and we started in the middle. We'll see who we are dealing with soon I suppose.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[castle bravo]

Oh, they did indeed and in fact they gave many Republic guys a very hard time in DC-10 transition. "


This is the entire point. Now that the shoe is on the other foot.............

 

[Donsa320]

True Don, and it all starts with the opening positions. They went one way with DOH (far left), and we could have gone the polar opposite and said "Staple." Instead, we threw in relative seniority with a small chunk at the bottom due to outgoing airplanes. You can't really say "let's find some middle ground" since they started far left and we started in the middle. We'll see who we are dealing with soon I suppose.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Yes, General, I understand your point.

I am long gone now but NWA was my 3rd merger, Southern and then Hughes Airwest were first. Southern went the easiest IMHO. I would like to add that Southern had a 13 airplane commuter operation as well. But those Metro pilots were on the Southern list and they came right along with the mainline pilots. We had no problem with that. Too bad that is not the way it is now.

Good luck to you all.

DC

 

[recallsomeday]

So, you're only going up $15 an hour? Going up 4 years in pay, and then getting a 15-20% raise in pay rates? Really? You see, if you are in the bottom 5% of NWA, shouldn't you be in the bottom 5% of a new company? But, you guys are losing a bunch of planes soon, and we aren't. That is called inequity. You are only adding 18 mystery planes that haven't flown yet. You are adding some retirements, though, just like we are 5 years from now. (of course, we don't know if all of your pilots WILL retire at 60, just like ours).

Bye Bye--General Lee

I can see if one were 5% on the pre merger list, and 5% on the merged SLI.

Why would the DAL proposal put someone who is 10% on the pre-list and barely over 5% on the merged list?

Bottom line is this, you can keep the raise ... seniority is not for SALE. You keep trying to cover your seniority grab with a few dollars and the argument of credit for time on furlough.

 

[MJ42]

I can see if one were 5% on the pre merger list, and 5% on the merged SLI.

Why would the DAL proposal put someone who is 10% on the pre-list and barely over 5% on the merged list?

Bottom line is this, you can keep the raise ... seniority is not for SALE. You keep trying to cover your seniority grab with a few dollars and the argument of credit for time on furlough.

Exactly. Can someone please explain to me how the current DAL eight ball, who has only been on line for a couple of months, can be(relatively speaking) senior to a 00 DEC 19 NWA pilot (baby bus block holder) that has a few hundred pilots below?

I just don't get it.

Bottom line is all DAL pilots think NWA's DOH is unfair. ALL NWA pilots think DAL's relative seniority is unfair for many reasons. We do not think DAL's proposal was in the middle, no matter how you guys try to say it is! Hopefully the arbitrators gave a bit of insight and y'all (practicing my southern lingo) will wake up and realize a middle ground from both PROPOSALS is probably the fairest to all.

I'd like to see DOH for everyone hired after the last recalled pilot on both sides. Also, any new hire after 14 APR on the DAL side (about 48???) knew what they were getting into and therefore shouldn't complain about being on the bottom. Do you think ANY of them would have turned down the offer if they knew they would be on the bottom of the combined list? I don't.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

The pilots that were in the first few classes at DAL came to a Company that was still in BK protection, and knew they were on the front end of a major hiring wave. One that got cut short by the merger.
Doing DOH to these pilots would change their relative seniority by more than 6-7%. That is a major sticking point for DALPA and its membership.
The first few classes at DAL in 07 now put these pilots as line holders on everything except the 765 and 777. Their relative seniority is 88.5-91%. That is a big deal.

 

[castle bravo]

"Exactly. Can someone please explain to me how the current DAL eight ball, who has only been on line for a couple of months, can be(relatively speaking) senior to a 00 DEC 19 NWA pilot (baby bus block holder) that has a few hundred pilots below"?



Because there are 2008-hire DAL eight balls who are 767 international block holders right now? Could that be it? Are there any 2008-hires on the 330 as block holders? Are there even any 1999-hires as 330 block holder?

 

[MJ42]

"Exactly. Can someone please explain to me how the current DAL eight ball, who has only been on line for a couple of months, can be(relatively speaking) senior to a 00 DEC 19 NWA pilot (baby bus block holder) that has a few hundred pilots below"?



Because there are 2008-hire DAL eight balls who are 767 international block holders right now? Could that be it?

What??? The eight ball is THE LAST guy(singular) on DAL's list, and he's no line holder.

 

[castle bravo]

What??? The eight ball is THE LAST guy(singular) on DAL's list, and he's no line holder.

Ok, fine. Let's revise the statement. Ther ARE 2008-hires on the 767 as int'l line holders. Maybe they were hired early 2008 and are not currently the eight ball, but what is the hire date of the most junior 330 block holder?

 

[MJ42]

Ok, fine. Let's revise the statement. Ther ARE 2008-hires on the 767 as int'l line holders.

So? Where does that make them sit on DAL's current list? Bottom 3% or less?

P.S. responded too soon to quote your 330 block holder question but I know what you're getting at, they're senior. So??? It's a senior position at NWA for a reason, 767er is junior at DAL for a reason as well.

 

[castle bravo]

What is the hire date of the most junior 330 block holder?

 

[MJ42]

What is the hire date of the most junior 330 block holder?

Read above...

Ok then, What would a 2008 hire hold if everyone at DAL bid the biggest/highest paying aircraft they could hold?

Still haven't answered my question how the last guy on DAL's list(88 f/o reserve) is relatively senior to a 320 block holder?

All this has been beaten to death on FI. My point was, fair is probably somewhere between both proposals...like it, or not.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

We would be 73N FO's. Not just 88 FO's we have hired that many.
What this points out is that our early 07 hires are in fact enjoying the same bidding authority that your late 99 hires are. That is why we are slotted in with your late 99 hire 320 FO's.
FWIW we have 623 M88 FO slots system wide. We have hired over 700 pilots since Feb of 2007. This equates to aprox. 80 "new hires" that fit this bill.
We can argue the staple but that comes to gauge of aircraft.

 

[MJ42]

We would be 73N FO's. Not just 88 FO's we have hired that many.
What this points out is that our early 07 hires are in fact enjoying the same bidding authority that your late 99 hires are. That is why we are slotted in with your late 99 hire 320 FO's.
FWIW we have 623 M88 FO slots system wide. We have hired over 700 pilots since Feb of 2007. This equates to aprox. 80 "new hires" that fit this bill.
We can argue the staple but that comes to gauge of aircraft.

Okay, but, how does that fit in to your mid 08 hires, who are 88 reserve, being senior to 00 DEC hires at NWA? Can't say because of gauge of aircraft.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Everyone at NWA doesn't bid the most senior equipment they can hold..nor do they at DAL.

The reason the DAL proposal worked out the way it did was due to "stovepipe" which assumed everyone bid the most senior equipment possible. All the nwa dc-9 and 747 SO positions went below our list..since they would be considered junior to the md-88- which is bigger than the 319 (only 3 seats smaller than the 320..the md-90 is 7 seats bigger than the 320).


That is the answer to your question.

Why are the number 7 and 8 guys on your list on the 757? Does the quality of life stink so bad on whale and megapoodle?

 

[FDJ2]

P.S. responded too soon to quote your 330 block holder question but I know what you're getting at, they're senior. So??? It's a senior position at NWA for a reason, 767er is junior at DAL for a reason as well.

Probably because the DC-9 position is sooooooo miserable.

Wide bodied flying goes more junior at DAL because we have twice as much wide bodied international flying as NWA and it has experienced significant growth due to DAL's rapidly expanding international operation. DAL also has super premium non international flying which is an attractive alternative. DAL has twice as many super premium paying 757 flying positions as NWA. DAL 737 flying pays more than an NWA 757 and DAL MD-88s are paid on par, within a couple of bucks, with NWA 757s.

Perhaps the reason wide bodied flying is so senior at NWA is because it is a stagnant, or shrinking category and the narrow bodied flying at NWA is in small, old, low paying aircraft.

 

[MJ42]

Everyone at NWA doesn't bid the most senior equipment they can hold..nor do they at DAL.

The reason the DAL proposal worked out the way it did was due to "stovepipe" which assumed everyone bid the most senior equipment possible. All the nwa dc-9 and 747 SO positions went below our list..since they would be considered junior to the md-88- which is bigger than the 319 (only 3 seats smaller than the 320..the md-90 is 7 seats bigger than the 320).


That is the answer to your question.

Why are the number 7 and 8 guys on your list on the 757? Does the quality of life stink so bad on whale and megapoodle?

I don't know? Go email them since we can now communicate via company email. That's like asking why 88 f/o's who can hold the 76 or better still bid the 88? Does 75/76 QOL suck that bad?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Depends on what you are looking for. I prefer to bid 767 reserve than fly a line on the 88. Being in base helps.