Nwa Ta

[saabservant]

The word flying around at MSA is that the TA gives NWA the right to shop around for ANOTHER airlink carrier, if there is bankruptcy/liquidation at another brand. This after MSA pilots went past a strike deadline to achieve scope against it's own holdings company. Now it appears that mainline is opening the door at the other end for management. This scope was highly prized at MSA, NWA, and national alpa. Many other contract goals were sacrificed to achieve it, because all parties agreed that this was necessary to achieve a "brand scope" to protect the pilots of the NWA "family".
With 800 NWA pilots still out, 400 MSA FO's stuck in the right seat with no pay and career progression, and 9e hiring 400 hour pay-for- training wonders who upgrade to capt. on a jet in less than two years, how does allowing a third airlink make sense?
This only makes whipsawing easier.

The leadership of MSA and NWA alpa have both written and said that brand scope, career progression, and an end to whipsawing are their goals.
My question to NWA alpa: How much in saved pay or pension did you get to allow this? Did you sell out a part of your pilot group, or the airlink pilots who have been serving you and subsidizing your pensions(which airlink pilots don't get) for YEARS? Why not NWA pilots flying 50, or 70 seaters at mainline, or your CURRENT servant airlines?

The puppet mgmt. team at MSA likes to tell us: "We need to continue our outstanding operating performance so we are positioned for future growth with NWA".
We now know what we are really being positioned for....

 

[blade230]

9e hiring 400 hour pay-for- training wonders who upgrade to capt. on a jet in less than two years,

1. This thread has absolutely nothing to do with PFT.
2. The average GIA guy has over 600 TT, some with less, some with much much more.
3. If somone had 400 TT, and our upgrade mins are 3500 TT red. to 3000 with 500 in type, it would be a little hard to upgrade in less than 2 years don't you think.
4. 9E is not the only airline with PFT programs currently running. (ASA with Flight Safety, Air Wisky with RAA and CAE)
5. Mesaba within the last 6 months has hired guys with under 1000 TT. One of which is a friend of mine.

No wonder the whipsaw works so well. We have pilot groups that like each other so much.

 

[searching]

No wonder the whipsaw works so well. We have pilot groups that like each other so much.

Amen to that. If pilots want to fight cost cutting management, pilot should STICK TOGETHER, not trash eachother. We (Pilots) are our own worst enemy. Because all we do is talk chit to one another.

 

[saabservant]

blade230: thanks for correcting the details, but my point is the same. And no, we don't dislike other airlink pilots, only the masters at NWA who set up this system. Many of us worked closely with your volunteers last January with good results, and the situation will surely be reversed whenever you approach release, if ever.
Seeyaaa

 

[charley varrick]

The additional 40 though.. does this mean they are shopping around for another airlink or are they still keeping the furloughee's from flying 50 seaters?

NWA wants the ability to take advantage of excess feeder capacity that might be left over from either another carrier's demise or reduction in service.

 

[furloughed dude]

Saabservant,

Give me a break! NWA absolutely supported Mesaba 100% during your negotiations. If you chose to strike, mainline would not have flown any routes flown by Mesaba. I have no idea what you are talking about.

As I understand it, NWALPA did not want the company to finance any more RJs. While you speak some nonsense about subsidizing mainline, who do you think pays for those Avros (or Pinnacles CRJs)? Who has grown while the mainline still has about 700 furloughs? Mesaba has hired back all of their pilots while Pinnacle has grown temendously. While we are trying to get mainline pilots to fly any future 70 seaters, NWALPA is trying to get a flow up for you guys. And before you ask, there is no talk of a flow down.

If the company is in terrible shape and needs concessions, they surely don't have the cash to buy more RJs. NWALPA is not responsible for your career progression and if you have heartburn with any pilot group, why don't you look at the company that is now flying over 100 CRJs?

 

[saabservant]

I ruffled a few feathers, but you guys are missing the point.
Why an additional airlink carrier, when there are plenty of pilots, including 800 furloughed, within the present system?
What happened to the "brand scope", and why is it no longer important?
Is the outsource threat not real? What has changed?

You bring up an interesting side point, which we should leave for another day, but I'll toss in my two cents. Yes, NWA mgmt. and NWA alpa ARE responsible for what happens in this system, since they are the ones who set it up, and who completely control the activities of it's airlink partners, who are not free to engage in other work, for anybody else due to our air service agreements, and whose boards of directors and management teams are controlled by NWA executives.
but i digress....

--still greeting my fellow pilots with a "hello"

 

[T-Gates]

NWALPA is not responsible for your career progression and if you have heartburn with any pilot group, why don't you look at the company that is now flying over 100 CRJs?

Read: Don't hate me...Hate someone else!! So much for unity.....

 

[Schwanker]

Why not NWA pilots flying 50, or 70 seaters at mainline, or your CURRENT servant airlines?

...

Saabservant,

NWA pilots will be flying 70 seaters if they show up in NWA colors. It just may not be part of mainline to keep other costs down (FA's, Maintainence...).

Why not at a "servant" airline? I'm assuming you're talking Mesaba or Pinnacle. My guess is the pilots there would not allow a "super seniority" or flow back into the 70 seaters in the event of future furloughs. If this is the case, NWA could set up a third "airlink" with 70 seaters flown by mainline seniority pilots. We should know by next summer what's going to happen in this regard.

Schwanker

 

[aa73]

Any flying 70 seats and above belongs to the AA pilots and IMHO this is the reason why AA currently does not operate any 70 jets (other then the pre existing 30 CRJ70 at Eagle)


When mgt does decide to purchase something between the 50 seat ERJ's and the 118 Seat MD80's according to todays cpntract the AA pilots will fly it (as of this week)

G4G5,

I thought we owned 51 seats and above, after the May 2003 TA? Except for the 30 CR7s at Eagle, we fly anything that has 51+. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

aa73

 

[320AV8R]

Would someone form NWA please explain why you guys are agreeing to concessions when management refuses to go along with fare raises?

Because we are required to negotiate under the rules of the RLA. Federal law dictates our negotiation schedule. The Company dictates fare prices

 

[320AV8R]

The NWA ALPA negotiators did a phenomenal job under the circumstances. But, this TA is merely a band aid to help NWA convince their creditors that it is on its way to getting its labor costs under control without having to resort to Ch. 11.

The Agreement doesn't take effect unless the debt is refinanced

NWA's "business plan" calls for $950 million in labor savings, of which they wanted $465 million from the pilots. The pilots just gave them $250 million. They need A LOT more, according to their "plan." Of course, their plan also has oil being at less than $50 a barrel. Not good.

Management always asks for more than they want. We gave them $265 million, not $250 million. Nothing was based on the price of oil.

This TA merely gives the pilots some more breathing room. Unless the industry starts a rapid recovery, I think you can count on further concessions being given by the NWA pilots in the future. And those concessions will be much uglier.

Really ? How do you know ? Do you work for NWA, or are you just stating your opinion ?

 

[320AV8R]

Unless you were employed there from '93-'96 you would not understand the reasons behind the other groups not playing ball with NWA. The pilots saw the pensions at other airlines being raped and decided to work with the company. The other groups won't scare as easy and will not be as easy to deal with as the pilots were. NWA will have their hands full with them.

Were YOU employed there from '93-'96 ?

So the pilots worked with the Company because of the pension situation at other carriers ? I guess it had nothing to do with the fact that we were in Section 6 negotiations in accordance with the Federally mandated Railway Labor Act provisions. And I guess we didn't have the NWA financial situation evaluated by the ALPA Economic Advisors as well as an Independent Wall Street Finnancial Consulting firm; who decided concessions were necessary.

No, the other Unions won't scare easily, since they have NWA over a barrel. Yea- that's why 10%.....no, let's see, 15%....no, oh yea, 40%, yea, 40% of the Mechanics have lost their jobs. And NWA has plans to outsource all Maintenance except Line Maintence. Mechanics have no Scope provisions, so their leverage is HUGE.

The F/A's new union has not been given the Board seat occupied by the previous union; the Company won't allow them to payroll deduct their Union dues, & the Company owes them million$ in Class C stock....& they won't pay them. Yea, they'll take the Company to the cleaners when their contract opens.

How about the Company files for expedited mediation with both groups, when their contracts become ammendable, & both groups have a new contract before they know it.

Unless you have some facts, don't speculate.

 

[saabservant]

Schwanker:
An all NWA pilot third airlink set up to fly 70 seaters is one thing, but what I think mgmt. has in mind is to bring in one of the regionals for USAir or United, should a liquidation occur. They would not even have to be involved in any 70 seat flying, simply used as another whipsaw against mainline, and more directly against Mesaba and Pinnacle. I can't believe that alpa natl. and nwa alpa are approving of this scenario, where one group of pilots desperate for any work is used as leverage against the contracts of current airlink pilots.
I can see it now: the Pinnacle group reaches 20 months past amendable date, and mgmt. tells them about the group coming in who will do the flying for 40% less.
I would expect nothing else of NWA mgmt.

 

[canyonblue]

Were YOU employed there from '93-'96 ?

Yes, I was employed at Northwest from '89-'96 in a non-pilot position. Became friends with many NWA pilots that still fly there and I still talk to, including one, a 1979 hire, who told me to apply to SWA in '98 because he felt that if he was applying at an airline, his top choice would be Southwest. I finally did in '00 and he still gives me greif over those missed 2 years.

The F/A's new union has not been given the Board seat occupied by the previous union; the Company won't allow them to payroll deduct their Union dues, & the Company owes them million$ in Class C stock....& they won't pay them. Yea, they'll take the Company to the cleaners when their contract opens.

And you wonder why I believe they are not interested in helping the company.

How about the Company files for expedited mediation with both groups, when their contracts become ammendable

It doesn't work that way. Have you ever heard of bargaining in good faith? Why do most contracts take 2-3 years?

Unless you have some facts, don't speculate.

It is all speculation, but I don't believe you will see any cooperation from the other employee groups. Why would they. Don't forget the Northwest Company Motto........"We're not happy, 'til your not happy". Best of luck though, I still have many friends there that are great people. Next trip ask the other groups if they are on board for the concessions, then you will see what I mean. I don't see them giving anything outside of BK.

 

[dondk]

but what I think mgmt. has in mind is to bring in one of the regionals for USAir or United, should a liquidation occur.

In addition, they can obtain an additional 40 50 seaters which must be owned, or leased, and operated by someone other than NWA.

Well.. these 2 comments bring an interesting "twist".. How many other CRJ operators (50 seat) are there for those 2 USA or UAL?.

Air Wisky- maybe has a few extras' from the Air Tran deal
Mesa- would definately have extra's and would do it for less $$$
ACA- (former UAL) Indy air, but they have their own problems right now.
PSA- they don't have the 40 jets AND they don't own any
am I missing any?

The question of the hour though would be... It was always my understanding that NWA MEC had the say in who "could" be another Airlink. Does NWA MEC still have that say or was that removed in the TA?

 

[furloughed dude]

Again, Saabservant, I don't think mainline pilots want to see an airline that needs concessions finance any more RJs. If they decide to take advantage of the 50 additional 50 seaters, they will probably will try and find an existing carrier that has available assets. Maybe one of the United or US Airways regional carriers...

Quit complaining that you have no choice. You have tons of choices. Make them and stop blaming other people for your plight....

 

[saabservant]

Yazaboss, Iza go back an' drive the sh** wagon now...so we just shut the he** up and pick at whatever bone you choose to toss at us, huh? And the outsource threat can't touch you, right?
I am speechless. If you are furloughed, are you saying that it is ok with you that the number of rj's is increased, along with the number of groups flying them? Or am i to presume there is no connection between double digit growth in airlink flying while mainline is flat?
How long do you think you will be on the street if mgmt. does bring in more rj's and outside pilots to fly them?

Maybe I choose to hope this alpa thing might turn out to be a real union, that represents all of its pilots equally, and not just a tool for protection of a few...then again, maybe not

 

[charley varrick]

Really ? How do you know ? Do you work for NWA, or are you just stating your opinion ?

I am furloughed, and my opinion is based on what I garnered at the first MSP road show.

The negotiator pointedly stated that this TA is a "bridge" agreement to a second round of negotiations. If the other unions at NWA don't start to play ball, and if oil prices stay at $50+ a barrel, I think you can't count on more concessions in that "second round."

He also stated that if NWA was not in such a bind with the banks over the looming revolver financing, they would have demanded more concessions and offered less at the table. Thus, I believe, the company became statisfied with the $250 million (I do not include the $15 million "credit" for the 40 additional 50 seaters that are to be owned/leased and operated by someone other than NWA, since that has not yet been realized, and may never be) versus their target of $465 million.

The negotiators realized, in my opinion, that this was a propitious time to come to a concessionary TA that was not a literal gutting of the contract. They brilliantly used the leverage of the looming revolver refinancing to ameliorate the scope and breadth of the concessions. Evidently, it was worth a lot to NWA to be able to say "look progress!!" to their bankers.

Let's pray the banks go for it. And then that the other unions start to think with their heads when it comes to their future. Otherwise, round two may come all too quickly.

 

[Schwanker]

How long do you think you will be on the street if mgmt. does bring in more rj's and outside pilots to fly them?

A max of 18 months for the most junior guy. From the info we're seeing, recalls are ramping up. They have already called back 174 pilots this quarter (Oct-Dec). HR says they are way behind and need to know ASAP if you'll be going on military leave when recalled. Bypasses and military leaves are causing them to go through the list faster. Some with info to next years flying and staffing plans are telling us all will be back by next year. Who knows, with a 25% military leave and bypass rate, maybe they'll even be taking apps by then. Just trying to answer your question.

Schwanker