Nwa Ta

[320AV8R]

Would someone form NWA please explain why you guys are agreeing to concessions when management refuses to go along with fare raises?

Because we are required to negotiate under the rules of the RLA. Federal law dictates our negotiation schedule. The Company dictates fare prices

 

[320AV8R]

The NWA ALPA negotiators did a phenomenal job under the circumstances. But, this TA is merely a band aid to help NWA convince their creditors that it is on its way to getting its labor costs under control without having to resort to Ch. 11.

The Agreement doesn't take effect unless the debt is refinanced

NWA's "business plan" calls for $950 million in labor savings, of which they wanted $465 million from the pilots. The pilots just gave them $250 million. They need A LOT more, according to their "plan." Of course, their plan also has oil being at less than $50 a barrel. Not good.

Management always asks for more than they want. We gave them $265 million, not $250 million. Nothing was based on the price of oil.

This TA merely gives the pilots some more breathing room. Unless the industry starts a rapid recovery, I think you can count on further concessions being given by the NWA pilots in the future. And those concessions will be much uglier.

Really ? How do you know ? Do you work for NWA, or are you just stating your opinion ?

 

[320AV8R]

Unless you were employed there from '93-'96 you would not understand the reasons behind the other groups not playing ball with NWA. The pilots saw the pensions at other airlines being raped and decided to work with the company. The other groups won't scare as easy and will not be as easy to deal with as the pilots were. NWA will have their hands full with them.

Were YOU employed there from '93-'96 ?

So the pilots worked with the Company because of the pension situation at other carriers ? I guess it had nothing to do with the fact that we were in Section 6 negotiations in accordance with the Federally mandated Railway Labor Act provisions. And I guess we didn't have the NWA financial situation evaluated by the ALPA Economic Advisors as well as an Independent Wall Street Finnancial Consulting firm; who decided concessions were necessary.

No, the other Unions won't scare easily, since they have NWA over a barrel. Yea- that's why 10%.....no, let's see, 15%....no, oh yea, 40%, yea, 40% of the Mechanics have lost their jobs. And NWA has plans to outsource all Maintenance except Line Maintence. Mechanics have no Scope provisions, so their leverage is HUGE.

The F/A's new union has not been given the Board seat occupied by the previous union; the Company won't allow them to payroll deduct their Union dues, & the Company owes them million$ in Class C stock....& they won't pay them. Yea, they'll take the Company to the cleaners when their contract opens.

How about the Company files for expedited mediation with both groups, when their contracts become ammendable, & both groups have a new contract before they know it.

Unless you have some facts, don't speculate.

 

[saabservant]

Schwanker:
An all NWA pilot third airlink set up to fly 70 seaters is one thing, but what I think mgmt. has in mind is to bring in one of the regionals for USAir or United, should a liquidation occur. They would not even have to be involved in any 70 seat flying, simply used as another whipsaw against mainline, and more directly against Mesaba and Pinnacle. I can't believe that alpa natl. and nwa alpa are approving of this scenario, where one group of pilots desperate for any work is used as leverage against the contracts of current airlink pilots.
I can see it now: the Pinnacle group reaches 20 months past amendable date, and mgmt. tells them about the group coming in who will do the flying for 40% less.
I would expect nothing else of NWA mgmt.

 

[canyonblue]

Were YOU employed there from '93-'96 ?

Yes, I was employed at Northwest from '89-'96 in a non-pilot position. Became friends with many NWA pilots that still fly there and I still talk to, including one, a 1979 hire, who told me to apply to SWA in '98 because he felt that if he was applying at an airline, his top choice would be Southwest. I finally did in '00 and he still gives me greif over those missed 2 years.

The F/A's new union has not been given the Board seat occupied by the previous union; the Company won't allow them to payroll deduct their Union dues, & the Company owes them million$ in Class C stock....& they won't pay them. Yea, they'll take the Company to the cleaners when their contract opens.

And you wonder why I believe they are not interested in helping the company.

How about the Company files for expedited mediation with both groups, when their contracts become ammendable

It doesn't work that way. Have you ever heard of bargaining in good faith? Why do most contracts take 2-3 years?

Unless you have some facts, don't speculate.

It is all speculation, but I don't believe you will see any cooperation from the other employee groups. Why would they. Don't forget the Northwest Company Motto........"We're not happy, 'til your not happy". Best of luck though, I still have many friends there that are great people. Next trip ask the other groups if they are on board for the concessions, then you will see what I mean. I don't see them giving anything outside of BK.

 

[dondk]

but what I think mgmt. has in mind is to bring in one of the regionals for USAir or United, should a liquidation occur.

In addition, they can obtain an additional 40 50 seaters which must be owned, or leased, and operated by someone other than NWA.

Well.. these 2 comments bring an interesting "twist".. How many other CRJ operators (50 seat) are there for those 2 USA or UAL?.

Air Wisky- maybe has a few extras' from the Air Tran deal
Mesa- would definately have extra's and would do it for less $$$
ACA- (former UAL) Indy air, but they have their own problems right now.
PSA- they don't have the 40 jets AND they don't own any
am I missing any?

The question of the hour though would be... It was always my understanding that NWA MEC had the say in who "could" be another Airlink. Does NWA MEC still have that say or was that removed in the TA?

 

[furloughed dude]

Again, Saabservant, I don't think mainline pilots want to see an airline that needs concessions finance any more RJs. If they decide to take advantage of the 50 additional 50 seaters, they will probably will try and find an existing carrier that has available assets. Maybe one of the United or US Airways regional carriers...

Quit complaining that you have no choice. You have tons of choices. Make them and stop blaming other people for your plight....

 

[saabservant]

Yazaboss, Iza go back an' drive the sh** wagon now...so we just shut the he** up and pick at whatever bone you choose to toss at us, huh? And the outsource threat can't touch you, right?
I am speechless. If you are furloughed, are you saying that it is ok with you that the number of rj's is increased, along with the number of groups flying them? Or am i to presume there is no connection between double digit growth in airlink flying while mainline is flat?
How long do you think you will be on the street if mgmt. does bring in more rj's and outside pilots to fly them?

Maybe I choose to hope this alpa thing might turn out to be a real union, that represents all of its pilots equally, and not just a tool for protection of a few...then again, maybe not

 

[charley varrick]

Really ? How do you know ? Do you work for NWA, or are you just stating your opinion ?

I am furloughed, and my opinion is based on what I garnered at the first MSP road show.

The negotiator pointedly stated that this TA is a "bridge" agreement to a second round of negotiations. If the other unions at NWA don't start to play ball, and if oil prices stay at $50+ a barrel, I think you can't count on more concessions in that "second round."

He also stated that if NWA was not in such a bind with the banks over the looming revolver financing, they would have demanded more concessions and offered less at the table. Thus, I believe, the company became statisfied with the $250 million (I do not include the $15 million "credit" for the 40 additional 50 seaters that are to be owned/leased and operated by someone other than NWA, since that has not yet been realized, and may never be) versus their target of $465 million.

The negotiators realized, in my opinion, that this was a propitious time to come to a concessionary TA that was not a literal gutting of the contract. They brilliantly used the leverage of the looming revolver refinancing to ameliorate the scope and breadth of the concessions. Evidently, it was worth a lot to NWA to be able to say "look progress!!" to their bankers.

Let's pray the banks go for it. And then that the other unions start to think with their heads when it comes to their future. Otherwise, round two may come all too quickly.

 

[Schwanker]

How long do you think you will be on the street if mgmt. does bring in more rj's and outside pilots to fly them?

A max of 18 months for the most junior guy. From the info we're seeing, recalls are ramping up. They have already called back 174 pilots this quarter (Oct-Dec). HR says they are way behind and need to know ASAP if you'll be going on military leave when recalled. Bypasses and military leaves are causing them to go through the list faster. Some with info to next years flying and staffing plans are telling us all will be back by next year. Who knows, with a 25% military leave and bypass rate, maybe they'll even be taking apps by then. Just trying to answer your question.

Schwanker

 

[furloughed dude]

Poor saabservant,


Doesn't like his job and now blames NWA ALPA. I am not sure what you expect from this "union thing" but, first of all, you don't work for Northwest. You expect us to not only support you during your negotiations (which we did) but also to negotiate some more regional jets for your company. Wow!

Do I like the fact that Pinnacle was growing like crazy when we had over 900 pilots on furlough? Hell no. The company outsmarted us in this respect. ALPA didn't see NW buying 50 seat jets, taking six seats out, and recertifying them as 44 seat jets. But they were abiding by the contract. Tough luck for us. Do I like seeing us allowing 40 more RJs to be flown? Hell no, but that's the way it goes.

As far as this team crap goes, I sure didn't see Pinnacle turing down those jets with us on the street. And I wouldn't expect them too. This is business and the sooner you see this, the better off you will be.

Don't expect mainline to negotiate in your behalf. You only seem pissed because the 40 additional jets won't be flown by Mesaba. Your growth is stagnant, blah, blah. You obviously care about yourself, not for this so called "team." I have always seen the Mesaba guys as very professional. You are obviously one of the few that doesn't measure up....

 

[saabservant]

Oh, brother. I guess some people only hear what they wish to. What we(not just me) are pissed about is that this is about protecting the careers of airlink pilots, not just mainline. Are only mainline jobs worthy of protection from outsourcing and whipsawing?
I happen to like my job, thank you, and I gladly extend the same level of service to your customers that you do, and we do not expect anything from mainline leadership but equal treatment, not an ok to management to bring in another whipsaw.

Once Pinnacle is fully staffed there will be over 2000 pilots flying NWA airlink aircraft. This will represent almost a third of the system's pilots.
Don't these people deserve the same level of representation and job/career protection as you do?

Your attempt to portray OUR concerns as just personal problems, and that if we don't like it we can hit the street is insulting, demeaning, and disrespectful. Who is unprofessional?

 

[320AV8R]

The negotiator pointedly stated that this TA is a "bridge" agreement to a second round of negotiations. If the other unions at NWA don't start to play ball, and if oil prices stay at $50+ a barrel, I think you can't count on more concessions in that "second round."

Check the Council 001 Update dated 22 Oct under Media Matters.

 

[furloughed dude]

saabservant,

You have representation, it is Mesaba ALPA.

If you just woke up, it isn't a great negotiating environment. Ask guys at American, United, and US Airways. You don't care if NWA outsources more regional jets, you just want them to go your carrier. We have about 700 furloughed guys that could probably care less if you have job growth or not.

Many NWA pilots are tired of outsourcing our jobs to Pinnacle. NWA is abiding by the contract, so it is just the way it goes.

 

[surplus1]

This after MSA pilots went past a strike deadline to achieve scope against it's own holdings company. Now it appears that mainline is opening the door at the other end for management. This scope was highly prized at MSA, NWA, and national alpa. Many other contract goals were sacrificed to achieve it, because all parties agreed that this was necessary to achieve a "brand scope" to protect the pilots of the NWA "family".
This only makes whipsawing easier.

The leadership of MSA and NWA alpa have both written and said that brand scope, career progression, and an end to whipsawing are their goals.

We now know what we are really being positioned for....

When are you people going to learn that the smooth talk you get from ALPA National and your own chairman is meaningless garbage?

Nobody at NWALPA or at ALPA national gives a dam_n whether you are "whipsawed" or not and never has. "Brand Scope" is designed to protect mainline pilots, not you.

They been feeding you Kool Aid and stocking up on KY for years and you're still drinking it. Why are you surprised that you're now being told to bend over and grab your ankles? What did you think the KY was for?

You deserve whatever you get. Just keep smiling while they insert and expect to swallow when asked.

 

[Monster Buck]

I have always seen the Mesaba guys as very professional. You are obviously one of the few that doesn't measure up....[/QUOTE]Well said. Please remember this is one person's opinion. Everyone has lost a piece of their dream career, some have a harder time directing that anger and dissapointment. I wish you guys the best. I know you guys don't want pay cuts any more than we do. NWA pilots seem to have done better than most in these crappy times. If I owned the gold, I sure the hell would't be working for a living.

It seems that you held your ground on the 70 seat issue, congrats. I haven't read the TA since I don't work for NWA, but if you have a copy, can you tell us exactly how it reads on the rj ac, I would like some more credible info. Thanks.

 

[surplus1]

When are you people going to learn that the smooth talk you get from ALPA National is meaningless garbage? They've been fooling you with the same smoke and mirrors for years but you keep right on believing they're on your side and the just want to be "fair". You have been used and you will continue to be used. They've always believed you weren't smart enought to figure it out and you know what, they're right.

Nobody at NWALPA or at ALPA national gives a dam_n whether you are "whipsawed" or not and never has. "Brand Scope" is designed to protect mainline pilots, not you. Flowthroughs have nothing to do with "progression" for you, they are furlough protection for the mainline.

They been feeding you Kool Aid and stocking up on KY for years and you're still drinking it. Why are you surprised that you're now being told to bend over and grab your ankles? What did you think the KY was for?

You deserve whatever you get. Just keep smiling while they insert and expect to swallow when asked. When they've finished, you'd better tell them you like it and you want some more. If you cooperate the screwing will feel better. If you don't they'll take away your knee pads.

 

[flap operator]

Interesting thread... I can see saabservants points of view, because I'm living it right there with him! But I also can see the points the NWA dudes are making. The thought of a 3rd Airlink is more disheartening to me than anything esle. But if I read these points correctly, NWA is free to use 40 more 50 seat airplanes... only if they don't finance them. As scary as Mesa flying a red tail would be... what if MESABA er, I mean, MAIR holdings financed them? MAIR has tons of money, no debt and Foley has to do something to justify his brand spanking new 4 year contract (see latest 10K filing with the SEC). MAIR turned down UAL work because UAL wanted MAIR to assume the leases and MAIR thought that would be too risky given UALs state. But what if NWA breaks with tradition and allows MAIR to finance these planes? Just a thought.

I'm going to bed and wonder WHAT THE **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**K was I thinking getting into this industry? I mean $hit... how stupid was I to get a job with a company whos entire viability is controlled by another airlines pilot group!!??

Livin' the dream...

FO


Oh and BTW, boeing... do some research regarding NWA and fare increases. They have almost always matched fare increases... they may not have been across the board fare increases, which are stupid, but they raise fares on fares that need raising. Listen to their call from the other day... they actually raised international fares too!!

 

[Boeingman]

I beg to differ flap

Oh and BTW, boeing... do some research regarding NWA and fare increases. They have almost always matched fare increases... they may not have been across the board fare increases, which are stupid, but they raise fares on fares that need raising. Listen to their call from the other day... they actually raised international fares too!!

When you look at the past fare hikes that have been attempted, then rescinded, the blame was always put on NWA's failure to follow suit.


http://biz.yahoo.com/fool/040930/1096559040_2.html


Although this is only one reference, I could look up more but don't have the time. Fact is, from memory this has happened time and again with industry fare hikes over the last couple of years.

I still do not understand the concept of any company that feels their revenue model is performing correctly (by nixing fare increases), then tells the employees (essentially) they need concessions because the cost side is exceeding the revenue side of the accounting ledger.

Point is, had they of gone along, would the contracts needed to have been opened? At some point the employees of this industry cannot keep being used as a lending institution for poor management and/or industry woes. Wait, that doesn't even make sense. Lending institutions require collateral and get their money back with interest.I am just tired of seeing ALL employees getting hammered over and over again.The price of oil is a cost of doing business. As far as I am concerned, employees should not be subsidizing any cost of the business model for their companies.

Where does it end?

 

[flap operator]

Boeing - I agree... employees shouldn't always be the scape goat for the airlines problems. Regarding the fare hikes... if you listen to any investors conference NWA has ever participated in you would get a feel for their philosiphy. NWA sees across the board fare hikes as mostly revenue negative. Why should they raise already high unrestricted business fares? One analogy given by Richard Anderson was the comparison between the walk up unrestricted fares and the hotel rack rates published on the back of hotel room doors. Nobody really pays those rates, because there is always a deal to be had out there. So, it doesn't make sense to raise that rate, when very few people are buying it anyway. Not to mention, the people that do are usually their best customers... why alienate them further? So, because of this mentality, NWA has been SELECTIVE with fare hikes. They only do them if the feel that they'll actually produce extra revenue. Sometimes a fare hike would drive customers to Southwest or AIr Tran for example and therefore NWA loses revenue. So the blanket statements of NWA not EVER going along with fare hikes is simply untrue and very skewed.

FO4ever