NWA TA ratified

[brainhurts]

haha you wanna talk about broken records listen to all the chest thumpers on this site. HOLD THE LINE, MANAGEMENT IS EVIL AND HATES EVERY LIVING PERSON, FULL PAY TIL THE LAST DAY, NOT ONE PENNY, BURN IT DOWN, STRIKE THIS STRIKE THAT, WE ARE THE UNION COLLECTIVE WE WISH TO ASSIMILATE ALL WHO DISAGREE WITH US. There is no such thing as unity anymore. Doh so you say YOU are the company eh? Do you sign your own checks, do you run anything behind the scenes besides flying? No your job is to fly from point a to point b wherever you now work if you still fly. Management is sort of the company. They sign your paychecks and allow you to make a living. The company is no one really. It is a name on a piece of paper so buisness can be done. It is a name used for brand recognition. It is quite arrogant to think any one group is the company. Everyone combines to help the company run. Would the company run without pilots nope but it sure wouldnt run without management either. BTW thank god pilots dont run airlines. Trust me they would be in a lot worse shape.

blah blah blah=boring

 

[brainhurts]

Again no one may have to join the union but you still arent allowed to vote. I highly doubt all of you would walk off the job. Its really quite simple if management didnt have to recognize the union they wouldnt. The RLA requires them to recognize the union. Without that it would be even more of a shell game passing flying around to non union carriers. You really live in an ideal world if you think everyone would just walk off their job without the protections of the RLA. Without the rules of a strike they can simply fire all of you, take the parachute and laugh as you stand there like a bunch of tards. To say no one in the union is corrupt is also foolish. We all know of some of the crap unions have pulled in the past. It doesn't matter if you don't have to join or pay dues you still cant vote like you should be able to since you are also an employee. There are definately a few non members out there however your not allowed to vote on issues to the best of my understanding. The supreme court has ruled pilots can be forced by unions to pay maintenace fees. Would the union forgive those? I dunno I have never asked anyone that is a non member. I have never flown with M.W but have heard of him. I dont really ask people whos a member or not because quite frankly that is their buisness. BTW if the RLA "impedes on your constitutional rights" why dont you try taking it up with the supreme court? See how far that gets you. We should have arbitration because unions are out of control. They are out of touch with membership and they demand outrageous things. It's quite simple really most jobs don't even have contracts. You just have a salary that you agree to work for with management which BTW can be cut without a vote or anything. Unions are what have provided the contracts which come from guess what laws that the government created. You are not entitled to even have contracts without laws that the government has in place. Sure you can demand it if you want but without the law requiring the company to do it they would simply laugh in your face and tell you "if you don't like it quit". You are quite the idealist though I give you credit for this. Without the RLA how are you going to get everyone organized to walk out when you dont get your way? What do you do if the majority doesnt want to walk? How do you even get a contract? Most non union companies have some type of policy manual or something however its not enforceable without the RLA requiring the grievance process. How do you plan to fix all that? Oh ya I forgot your going to walk every time you dont get your way, like a toddler. I wonder how many people would actually follow your lead. One always wonders if there is a strike but buisness goes on as usual was there ever really a strike? Arbitration is the best solution. It forces the union to stop being ridiculous and forces the company to stop being ridiculous. You each get your own arbitrator then one neutral one mutually agreed upon. It isnt government interferance its solving a dispute. Remember if you get enough people together you can always walk any time you want, there is no law against quitting. If you get enough people to walk voluntarily theres nothing the courts or anyone can do about it. Oh thats rightt you want to be accepted back every time you throw your tantrum.

It is incredible to witness--but long winded D will probably prevail on this thread because he is willing to spew his rap--endlessly and painfully--to the effect that I am about to gouge out my eyes in an effort not to have to read it.

 

[doh]

Unions are what have provided the contracts which come from guess what laws that the government created. You are not entitled to even have contracts without laws that the government has in place.


You are confusing the constitution with law. They are two very different animals. The constitution protects your contract rights. Grievance procedures would have to be negotiated on a company by company basis, but then would be equally binding. And lastly, you are not reading my posts. I said management could replace us if we walk. That does not change. You are the one who has a tantrum every time I talk about letting the market set pay and benefits. I will keep :smash: this theme until it penetrates that pea brain of yours.

 

[doh]

Oh, and by the way D'oosch, you still haven't explained to me why you ever agreed to work at a union carrier. You just got done telling Green "you knew the requirements..." so the same applies to you. Why didn't you go to Colgan or one of the other non-union carriers? Hmm? I'm waiting...

 

[doh]

It is incredible to witness--but long winded D will probably prevail on this thread because he is willing to spew his rap--endlessly and painfully--to the effect that I am about to gouge out my eyes in an effort not to have to read it.

No, he won't. I'm am making it my mission to refute every lie he tells. When I am on the road, I will hunt for him. I am relentless, a veritable pitbull on an ankle. I will be :uzi:ing for him.

 

[D'Angelo]

Unions are what have provided the contracts which come from guess what laws that the government created. You are not entitled to even have contracts without laws that the government has in place.


You are confusing the constitution with law. They are two very different animals. The constitution protects your contract rights. Grievance procedures would have to be negotiated on a company by company basis, but then would be equally binding. And lastly, you are not reading my posts. I said management could replace us if we walk. That does not change. You are the one who has a tantrum every time I talk about letting the market set pay and benefits. I will keep :smash: this theme until it penetrates that pea brain of yours.

Hey the market is already setting the rates. You don't see a mass exodus yet do you? no one is being forced to stay against their will at any airline in the country right now.This is evidence most people are still happy with their jobs. Perhaps because there is as little govt interferance as possible. So what you cant strike whenever you want. If you want the contracts to be so binding maybe you should have to sign a multi year contract with the company? Sorry you cant always get your way. I throw no tantrum you are the one wanting to walk off the job every time you get your way. Guess what you can just dont expect to be invited back to work

 

[Lear70]

Brain, don't worry about it. Put him on "ignore" and all you see are his quotes when OTHER people post something.

He's just a troll. Don't worry about what he says, he's not convincing anyone BUT HIMSELF...

Mark, you just COULDN'T leave well enough alone, could ya'?

 

[brainhurts]

1 ignore comin' up.

 

[CaptainMark]

Mark, you just COULDN'T leave well enough alone, could ya'?

my fault...

 

[Lear70]

my fault...

It's all good, brutha...

Hope you had a good Mother's Day with the missus.

 

[D'Angelo]

Way to go NWA pilots, your still standing strong. Don't worry about those pesky FAs. They will be dealt with soon enough! Keep fighting the right and just fight!

 

[kmox29]

Thank you D'Angelo

Now that I am no longer an airline pilot (remember when that title held some prestige?), I want to personally thank D'Angelo. Because of you, and your willingness to work for whatever management deems prudent, I am going to be able to buy cheap airfare for quite some time.

Ya see, now that I am the "flying public", I would be willing to pay whatever the cost of a ticket might be for my vacation. After all, there really is only one practical way to go to Europe and I'll have to pay what it costs.

HOWEVER, because D'Angelo and his type have convinced themselves with their "market driven rate" theory, I know that the ticket price will stay low. Once again, thank you!

ps - In all seriousness, to the rest of the airline pilot community, PLEASE keep the fight. As you all know, you're worth much more than what you're being forced to swallow.

 

[Beach Bum]

Hey the market is already setting the rates.

"The Market" also doesn't care if you are living in your car and eating out of dumpsters as long as you perform your duties. Many factors influence "the market", and what wage level the labor force is willing to accept is one of the factors. If labor submits to slave wages, then that's what management will pay.

 

[D'Angelo]

"The Market" also doesn't care if you are living in your car and eating out of dumpsters as long as you perform your duties. Many factors influence "the market", and what wage level the labor force is willing to accept is one of the factors. If labor submits to slave wages, then that's what management will pay.

Its not slavery if its voluntary. Unlike the slaves you have a choice to leave the industry if you wish. Comparing this buisness to slavery is ignorant and uninformed.

 

[kmox29]

D'Angelo,

Do you ever address people's issues and questions or do you just dodge them and spew the same rhetoric you have been posting since January? The point Beach Bum was making was that management will lower the pay to whatever you are willing to accept...even down to "slave wages" (which is a figure of speech).

Your response didn't even address the issue he was presenting which was because of people with your mentality, wages will continue to decline.

You just focused on the word "slave" and ranted on about how the job is voluntary.

Add to that, you've never responded to my suggestion, which was to go and negotiate a pay rate and work rules with Comair management on your own...just for fun...and see what you get.

 

[D'Angelo]

"The Market" also doesn't care if you are living in your car and eating out of dumpsters as long as you perform your duties. Many factors influence "the market", and what wage level the labor force is willing to accept is one of the factors. If labor submits to slave wages, then that's what management will pay.

To a certain extent yes, however there are still people doing this job and thriving. There is a point where wages reach a spot where people simply wont do it. Wages then have to climb the hill again. Slave wages? Please quit being such a drama queen. If there are still people willing to do the job then the market is working.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

To a certain extent yes, however there are still people doing this job and thriving. There is a point where wages reach a spot where people simply wont do it. Wages then have to climb the hill again. Slave wages? Please quit being such a drama queen. If there are still people willing to do the job then the market is working.

Wages actually may never climb the hill again under this market. You have a situation where the regionals are expanding to a point that always creates a surplus of pilots to the majors. There are still plenty of people willing to become a pilot instead of actually working to get a real job. The only thing a pilot shortage will cause is companies will pay to recruit people at the low wages; not bring wages up. You see until they exhaust the people willing to pay + the peope willing to accept that pay, will it ever start going up. I don't think that will be ever. Allowing foreign ownership, subjecting the airline market to the global scale, should allow pilots to take advantage of markets that are still regulated and have massive pilot shortages. Through these global monopolies we should be able to gain back the salaries we once had. Although the transition period will ruin a lot of pilots careers.

 

[pilotyip]

Again what is wrong with making $150K/yr, that is still a doable number at the majors and even the LLC's. It is in the upper 5% of all US incomes. It ain't what is used to be, but it is still a great wage.

 

[D'Angelo]

Again what is wrong with making $150K/yr, that is still a doable number at the majors and even the LLC's. It is in the upper 5% of all US incomes. It ain't what is used to be, but it is still a great wage.

Stop that your actually using logic not pure anger and emotion. There will be none of that here apparently. Everyone wants to think with misguided passions now adays

 

[pilotyip]

I'm sorry, I forgot I was dealing in reality.

 

[PCL_128]

Again what is wrong with making $150K/yr, that is still a doable number at the majors and even the LLC's. It is in the upper 5% of all US incomes. It ain't what is used to be, but it is still a great wage.

$150k ain't too bad (not what an airline pilot should be making, but still not bad), but the problem is how long it takes to get to that number. With the new EMB-190 rates at NWA, it would take forever to just get back to the $70-75k I'm making at Pinnacle now. I can't take a paycut for that long. Taking a puycut for a few years at Airtran, JetBlue, SWA, UPS, etc... isn't a big deal because it only lasts a few years. However, waiting for 5-10 years at NWA just to get back to current earnings, let alone get up to the $150k number, just isn't doable for a lot of people. Think about how long it takes from that first flying lesson until you see that $150k salary (if you ever see it). Four years of college, one year of flight training, one to two years of flight instructing, 3-5 years as an FO at a regional, 2-4 years as a Captain at a regional, 10 years as an FO at a major, then maybe you can hold an upgrade slot. How long did that take? 21-26 years. How long does it take someone to reach that $150k figure as a doctor, lawyer, dentist, executive, etc...? Half that time or less. Truly pathetic.

 

[pilotyip]

No college required

PLC here we go again; the 150K does not require a college degree. It does not require the regional low pay route either. The 135 world into the jet cargo operators will get a LLC job faster and reduce the time to 150K, than the college RJ F/O. captain route. Plus you will make more money.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Part of the multi faceted issue is convincing management to pay us more. We are currently in an environment where management wants more pay cuts.

Perhaps the accident rate which is significantly lowered will have to increase so management, gov't and the public WANT to pay pilots more so the industry isn't scraping the bottom of the barrel for pilots.

Again, just one point in an incredibly complex situation. There is no silver bullet.

 

[PCL_128]

PLC here we go again; the 150K does not require a college degree. It does not require the regional low pay route either. The 135 world into the jet cargo operators will get a LLC job faster and reduce the time to 150K, than the college RJ F/O. captain route. Plus you will make more money.

I doubt you can significantly reduce the amount of time to $150k by going the part 135 route. Yes, you'll make a little more money for those first 5 years or so, but it will still take just as long to reach the $150k figure you referred to earlier.

I do agree about the degree, however. Most of the airlines that I want to work for don't care about the degree. The majors are the only 4-year degree holdouts, and their jobs are less desirable than the Airtrans and SWAs of the world anyway as far as I'm concerned. I included the degree in the equation simply because many pilots do care about getting to Continental or Delta someday, so they'll still need the degree for that.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I do agree about the degree, however. Most of the airlines that I want to work for don't care about the degree. The majors are the only 4-year degree holdouts, and their jobs are less desirable than the Airtrans and SWAs of the world anyway as far as I'm concerned. I included the degree in the equation simply because many pilots do care about getting to Continental or Delta someday, so they'll still need the degree for that.

These pilots that get degrees only make it worse for everyone else. Whats next? A Masters to get hired at FedEx?

All you Pay For College guys are ruining it for the rest of us.

If no one got degrees then we wouldn't have to get degrees!

 

[pilotyip]

Ruining it I tell you just ruining it

Rez Yea Thats the spirit, those degree guys are ruining it for everyone, Ha Ha only kidding