NWA/Delta new Agreement. Mesaba?

[Superpilot92]

How about documented proof that an individual is capable of sticking with a program over a protracted period of time to achieve a defined accomplishment regardless of the perceived value?

It might not make you a better pilot but when an employer only has a very limited amount of time to decide on a future employee the applicant without the degree will have the appearance of a deadbeat.

Exactly! While i agree we should get paid more, a degree should be a requirement for any professional position. If someone doesnt want to get a degree then by all means they dont have to get it. I dont want to hear them complain though when they cant get the job they want because one of the Requirements cant be checked off on the application.

A degree is like anything else in this job, its a qualification. If Someone doesnt have a multi-engine license do you want to hear them complain they cant get a job flying a twin because they dont have a multi-ticket? Certificates are qualifications and if you dont have them all then your job opportunities me be limited. simple as that.

 

[Speedtape]

The vast majority of college degrees are either worthless by the time the individual gets to exercise the knowledge or become irrelevant due to career change. A degree in "Aviation Science" or whatever is no better or worse than anything else. If you want to focus on a career path get a masters.

Even an advanced degree will not matter unless you pursue a career in that area of study after obtaining the paper. It would be like earning your ratings, not gaining any further experience, and then pursuing a career path as a lawyer. At a later point, you decide law is not for you, and you decide to pursue flying again. Without the experience, you will be no better off and maybe actually worse off, than you were when you decided to pursue law after getting your ratings. It's not just about having the certifications, it's about having work experience in that field.

 

[Speedtape]

Having a degree in anything is better than having a degree in nothing--always. Generally, college graduates earn more than high school graduates. More doors are always open.

 

[Flybet3]

How about documented proof that an individual is capable of sticking with a program over a protracted period of time to achieve a defined accomplishment regardless of the perceived value?

Are you fu***ng serious? HA! That doesn't mean sh*t. Anyone can go to college, choose to major in ENGLISH and just show up to class, get drunk, high, party party party, maybe get laid and pass with a C-. Congratulations, you barely passed but who cares b/c you have proof of being able to stick with a program. Unless you got a Doctorate or a Masters in something that actually matters stop patting your self on the back and thinking that you're better than someone that couldn't go/afford/ or just didn't go to college. In my eyes anyone that sticks with aviation (airline, charter or crappy cargo ops) for more than 10 years and keeps their nose cleas has already shown me enough commitment to "sticking with a program". ( I also have a degree too)
Lets get real here. If I was interviewing an individual I would care more about their qualifications, references and work history.

 

[Flybet3]

The vast majority of college degrees are either worthless by the time the individual gets to exercise the knowledge or become irrelevant due to career change. A degree in "Aviation Science" or whatever is no better or worse than anything else. If you want to focus on a career path get a masters.

Now with this I agree, just get a Masters in something useful and USE the damnnn thing! Don't get a masters just b/c you wanna shine at fed ex and feel like a Scientist on flightinfo.

 

[Flybet3]

If Someone doesnt have a multi-engine license do you want to hear them complain they cant get a job flying a twin because they dont have a multi-ticket? Certificates are qualifications and if you dont have them all then your job opportunities me be limited. simple as that.

Terrible example by the way.

 

[Jetjockey]

The biggest argument for having a degree is; it allows you to get the next 'relevant' degree much quicker for your new career after you are furloughed.

Maybe the youth of America will take note. Run far, far away from this crap hole/abortion/train wreck called an aviation career.

p.s. I have a expensive degree from an aviation college. If I could get a refund, and 25 years back, I'd take it.

 

[Superpilot92]

Terrible example by the way.

How so? When an employer sets Minimums to apply is that not fair in your mind? When a job requires a type in order to qualify is that not fair? Whats the difference in having a requirement set by the employer that one must have a degree to be qualified?

A degree is just a piece of the overall qualification puzzle. There are those that have it and there are those that dont. For those of us who have a degree we can check that box in the qualification section of every application regardless of what the degree was in. simple as that

 

[flap operator]

Yes - Mesaba hired a good amount of low time guys, but they did not out number the guys/gals above our minimums. Further, if they had less than the minimums their application had to go through further screening and those that were hired below minimums all had a degree. I'm willing to bet that greater than 99% of our hew hires all have degrees or are in the process of completing one. Mesaba turned down more applicants than were actually hired during our massive hiring swing of 2007-2008, so I'd hardly call it dredging the bottom of the barrel. Therefore, I don't think Delta would really be dealing with a bunch of ignorant, uneducated and lowly time pilots if the flow actually continued.

It's incredible that mainline pilots still look down upon regional guys as if we're some sort of subspecies of the human race.

 

[MJ42]

Yes - Mesaba hired a good amount of low time guys, but they did not out number the guys/gals above our minimums. Further, if they had less than the minimums their application had to go through further screening and those that were hired below minimums all had a degree. I'm willing to bet that greater than 99% of our hew hires all have degrees or are in the process of completing one. Mesaba turned down more applicants than were actually hired during our massive hiring swing of 2007-2008, so I'd hardly call it dredging the bottom of the barrel. Therefore, I don't think Delta would really be dealing with a bunch of ignorant, uneducated and lowly time pilots if the flow actually continued.

It's incredible that mainline pilots still look down upon regional guys as if we're some sort of subspecies of the human race.

That's BS! Most of us have a regional background and worked very hard to get to a major. I don't think anyone was "looking down" on regional pilots. However, I posted my opinion that I think DAL will continue their past hiring practices, including eventually no flow agreements. DAL was never a fan of flow. Which flow UP has actually worked? Ask senior Eagle pilots.

Several regional pilots have posted on this thread in support of the benefit of higher education. Are they looking down on their peers who do not have a degree?

 

[CptMurf]

Which flow UP has actually worked? Ask senior Eagle pilots.

XJ's flow is a COMPLETELY different animal compared to Eagle's flow. There can only be as many flow downs as there was flow ups, right now 13 positions available. When the cycle reverses and NWA/DAL hires (after any down flow) the positions are reset and no flow down positions are available. It resets like this for every cycle. Compass's flow different story, but we had the ability to build in these protections and I think it is better for all.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

The flow through at both Mesaba and Compass require; 30 months experience at the regional, be a current captain, and meet any and all off the street hiring requirements ( flight times, degrees, background checks, ect.)

 

[xjhawk]

I bet flybet does not have a degree- just an observation

 

[Flybet3]

I bet flybet does not have a degree- just an observation

I bet you I do.

 

[ttuite]

The flow through at both Mesaba and Compass require; 30 months experience at the regional, be a current captain, and meet any and all off the street hiring requirements ( flight times, degrees, background checks, ect.)

Where is this written? I know a couple of guys at CP who do not have degrees. They will be very upset to hear that they need the degree. Very qualified individuals with a lot of international PIC. There was no mention of this when I interviewed so I don't imagine that they heard of it either. I hope that yo are wrong for their sake.

 

[MJ42]

XJ's flow is a COMPLETELY different animal compared to Eagle's flow. There can only be as many flow downs as there was flow ups, right now 13 positions available. When the cycle reverses and NWA/DAL hires (after any down flow) the positions are reset and no flow down positions are available. It resets like this for every cycle. Compass's flow different story, but we had the ability to build in these protections and I think it is better for all.

You're right, but how well has that flow up worked for Mesaba, 13 pilots out of how many eligible? How many were hired at NWA since last fall? When was your flow agreement negotiated? Why has it only worked for 13?

You act as if you're upset that I stated an opinion about DAL and flow ups. But the truth is, DAL never liked flow up agreements, therefore I wouldn't count on it being around during next contract negotiations. I don't think DAL will be doing much(if any) hiring during that time frame.

Also, I never heard those stipulations posted posted by wmusigpi. It doesn't sound accurate.

 

[Flybet3]

How so? When an employer sets Minimums to apply is that not fair in your mind? When a job requires a type in order to qualify is that not fair? Whats the difference in having a requirement set by the employer that one must have a degree to be qualified?

A degree is just a piece of the overall qualification puzzle. There are those that have it and there are those that dont. For those of us who have a degree we can check that box in the qualification section of every application regardless of what the degree was in. simple as that

Who's more qualified for a Major Airline Job (Any major)?
Candidate 1: 9000 TT, 5000 hrs TPIC, former 121 Check airman, 4 type ratings, trilingual, and has 3 internal recommendations.

Candidate 2: 3500 TT, 1500 TPIC, 1 type rating, only speaks english, no internal recommendations, and a Degree in Aviation.

 

[Flybet3]

But the truth is, DAL never liked flow up agreements, therefore I wouldn't count on it being around during next contract negotiations. I don't think DAL will be doing much(if any) hiring during that time frame.

.

Of course they don't like it, b/c that means that their squadron buddies would have to go through a regional to get to a Major.

 

[Superpilot92]

Who's more qualified for a Major Airline Job (Any major)?
Candidate 1: 9000 TT, 5000 hrs TPIC, former 121 Check airman, 4 type ratings, trilingual, and has 3 internal recommendations.

Candidate 2: 3500 TT, 1500 TPIC, 1 type rating, only speaks english, no internal recommendations, and a Degree in Aviation.

Well if the requirements set by the company in question REQUIRE a degree to be QUALIFIED then i would say the person with a degree is more qualified. He may have less flight time but he meets the Qualifications and Requirements.

You do know what it means when a company sets requirements dont you?

Is it fair if a guy has 10000 flight hours in a 777 who is seeking employment with a company that flies lears not be qualified because he doesnt have 100 hours in a lear? I mean he has plenty of flight time but doesnt meet the requirements set by the insurance or the company. That pilot has a couple options, he can get qualified by getting a type and time in type or not be qualified for that specific position. Simple really

 

[koepp]

Where is this written? I know a couple of guys at CP who do not have degrees. They will be very upset to hear that they need the degree. Very qualified individuals with a lot of international PIC. There was no mention of this when I interviewed so I don't imagine that they heard of it either. I hope that yo are wrong for their sake.

Only the XJ flow agreement requires the pilot to meet "all objective hiring criteria and requirements as established by Northwest".

The CP flow agreement only requires the pilot to have 30 months on the payroll and be a Captain - there is no other requirement. That's one of the reasons the CP CBA requires ATP mins for new hires.

 

[Flybet3]

Well if the requirements set by the company in question REQUIRE a degree to be QUALIFIED then i would say the person with a degree is more qualified. He may have less flight time but he meets the Qualifications and Requirements.

You do know what it means when a company sets requirements dont you?

Is it fair if a guy has 10000 flight hours in a 777 who is seeking employment with a company that flies lears not be qualified because he doesnt have 100 hours in a lear? I mean he has plenty of flight time but doesnt meet the requirements set by the insurance or the company. That pilot has a couple options, he can get qualified by getting a type and time in type or not be qualified for that specific position. Simple really

My whole point is that people are trying to set this quals at a regional level. And try to make them selves seem better than the next guy who doesn't have one. The funny thing is that both make the same damnn amount of money.

 

[Flybet3]

Well if the requirements set by the company in question REQUIRE a degree to be QUALIFIED then i would say the person with a degree is more qualified. He may have less flight time but he meets the Qualifications and Requirements.

You do know what it means when a company sets requirements dont you?

Is it fair if a guy has 10000 flight hours in a 777 who is seeking employment with a company that flies lears not be qualified because he doesnt have 100 hours in a lear? I mean he has plenty of flight time but doesnt meet the requirements set by the insurance or the company. That pilot has a couple options, he can get qualified by getting a type and time in type or not be qualified for that specific position. Simple really

once again you fail with your example. One guy has 10,000 hour total in a 777 and a degree, and the other guy has 10,000 hours in a 777 as well but no college degree... who's going to fly the lear better after 100 hours in Type???? Who's going to have better decision making skills??? hmmm....
Secondly, not meet the requirement for the insurance company? Sooo what about the street captains with to time in type? Many with a degree, and a few with out.

 

[Superpilot92]

once again you fail with your example. Once again you fail to comprehend the argument. One guy has 10,000 hour total in a 777 and a degree, and the other guy has 10,000 hours in a 777 as well but no college degree... who's going to fly the lear better after 100 hours in Type???? Who's going to have better decision making skills???Thats not the question the question was do they meet the requirements set forth by the company that is doing the hiring? hmmm....
Secondly, not meet the requirement for the insurance company? Yes thats what i said. Sooo what about the street captains with to time in type? It was a hypothetical situation champ. Many with a degree, and a few with out.

Never mind you OBVIOUSLY have no idea what a set of requirements are. The company that does the hiring sets the rules. Dont like it go start your own airline and set up your own list of REQUIRED QUALIFICATIONS. Until then Cheers :beer:

 

[MJ42]

Of course they don't like it, b/c that means that their squadron buddies would have to go through a regional to get to a Major.

Are you living in the 80's and 90's? I would agree if you were talking about that era, but, you do know that most hired in the past 1 1/2 years at DAL came from the regional ranks.

Who knows, a post merger DAL may change their minds on flow agreements when the next contract comes up. But, as their past history dictates, if I were at CPZ or XJ I wouldn't count on a flow being in tact.

As I said, I'd like to see CPZ added to the bottom of our list(yes, even those without degrees). Unfortunately, it is looking less likely to happen.

Shouldn't your argument on requirements be directed toward DAL instead of Superpilot? He obviously understands what a requirement is! He was trying to give you a simplistic explanation to your experience theories; corporate or airlines, it doesn't matter what your experience level is if you don't meet THEIR hiring requirements. I guess since my degree is OUTSIDE of aviation I'm able to grasp this concept easier then you!

 

[CptMurf]

You're right, but how well has that flow up worked for Mesaba, 13 pilots out of how many eligible? How many were hired at NWA since last fall? When was your flow agreement negotiated? Why has it only worked for 13?

You act as if you're upset that I stated an opinion about DAL and flow ups. But the truth is, DAL never liked flow up agreements, therefore I wouldn't count on it being around during next contract negotiations. I don't think DAL will be doing much(if any) hiring during that time frame.

Also, I never heard those stipulations posted posted by wmusigpi. It doesn't sound accurate.

Our flow agreement was negotiated/finalized last fall, but flows did not start until January of 2008. NWA must be hiring for the flows to occur, therefore only 13 people had a chance to leave. The top 600 are/were eligible, the top 125 or so have locked in their decision and cannot change their preference (because someone junior to them has already flowed). The last ones are in class right now. They were in the top 150 here, delayed for training because our management could delay their flow for 3 months (a stipulation of the flow agreement starting...for the first 9 months they could training delay up to 3 months with a NWA number).

I am not upset at all. And DAL may very well not like flows, and they may be nixed in the future. I am just clarifying some things about XJ's flow agreement that you are stating as fact, but aren't quite correct on. For now the flows are in the TA, and if ratified, will be in the contract.

Those stipulations are stated directly from M.N., XJ MEC president, as of last week. I am sure they are accurate. No offense, but I'll trust M.N. over wmusigpi's post on FI.

 

[XJohXJ]

There's no need to "count on" anything for now. The flows for Compass and Mesaba are intact, unless the JCBA doesn't pass. The flow is part of the JCBA.

Now, things can happen, of course. Compass or Mesaba could be sold off, and then things become less clear. I understand there is language about the flow being transferable, but time alone would tell how it plays out in the real world.

Needless to say, in 4+ years, when a new contract happens, anything goes. However, if the JCBA passes, then the flow will be in effect for the next 4 years at least. If it's part of the JCBA, Delta won't simply be able to "change their mind" about it.

 

[MJ42]

Our flow agreement was negotiated/finalized last fall, but flows did not start until January of 2008. NWA must be hiring for the flows to occur, therefore only 13 people had a chance to leave. The last ones are in class right now. They were in the top 150 here, delayed for training because our management could delay their flow for 3 months (a stipulation of the flow agreement starting...for the first 9 months they could training delay up to 3 months with a NWA number).

I am not upset at all. And DAL may very well not like flows, and they may be nixed in the future. I am just clarifying some things about XJ's flow agreement that you are stating as fact, but aren't quite correct on. For now the flows are in the TA, and if ratified, will be in the contract.

Those stipulations are stated directly from M.N., XJ MEC president, as of last week. I am sure they are accurate. No offense, but I'll trust M.N. over wmusigpi's post on FI.

I didn't state any facts, just an opinion on what I think will happen to flow agreements. I also asked a few questions that you answered.

As for wmusigpi's comments, he referred to both CPZ and XJ. I also stated it didn't sound accurate.

 

[CptMurf]

There's no need to "count on" anything for now. The flows for Compass and Mesaba are intact, unless the JCBA doesn't pass. The flow is part of the JCBA.

Now, things can happen, of course. Compass or Mesaba could be sold off, and then things become less clear. I understand there is language about the flow being transferable, but time alone would tell how it plays out in the real world.

Needless to say, in 4+ years, when a new contract happens, anything goes. However, if the JCBA passes, then the flow will be in effect for the next 4 years at least. If it's part of the JCBA, Delta won't simply be able to "change their mind" about it.

I agree. If the TA passes the flows are intact. We can continue this discussion in 4 years.

 

[MJ42]

There's no need to "count on" anything for now. The flows for Compass and Mesaba are intact, unless the JCBA doesn't pass. The flow is part of the JCBA.

Now, things can happen, of course. Compass or Mesaba could be sold off, and then things become less clear. I understand there is language about the flow being transferable, but time alone would tell how it plays out in the real world.

Needless to say, in 4+ years, when a new contract happens, anything goes. However, if the JCBA passes, then the flow will be in effect for the next 4 years at least. If it's part of the JCBA, Delta won't simply be able to "change their mind" about it.

Yeah, right. There is also a 24 month no furlough clause. If DAL needs to furlough, I'm sure they'd find a way to send us to the streets.

 

[Flybet3]

I guess since my degree is OUTSIDE of aviation I'm able to grasp this concept easier then you!

Well then buy your self a beer, give your self a hug and celebrate. Yaaay!