NWA/DAL what's the sentiment?

[Frank Lorenzo]

the "What Happens If It Fails?" section.

Stop being so dramatic.

So tell us all, what happens if it fails?

Let me guess, both airlines will retain lawyers and commence immediate Ch. 7 liquidation proceedings.

What a bunch of suckers you are.

I have to tell you, when I was helping put together your "road show" presentation with Dick and Doug, we didn't think the pilots would buy our spin job so easily. Once again, Uncle Frank has been proven wrong, as ALPO has stepped up to the plate to vet our talking points for us.

I thought at a minimum a lot of pilots would be asking 'hey, if we are doomed without a merger, how will all of the other airlines survive?" Thankfully, most of the NWA and DAL pilots appear to have suffered head trauma of some sort and are supporting our executive bonus agenda.

I admit, I have "bonus envy" with Dick and Doug. An AirTran/Bankruptcy type contract all the way out to around 2015!! I LOVE IT!!

Maybe you pilots aren't such bad guys after all!

Enjoy your SLI!

Your favorite corporate raider,

Frank

(forgot to ask - did Dick offer to provide free lubricant to the DAL pilots for the arbitration process?)

 

[DTW320]

I believe the "new" PS space for training addition was for PS on Pinnacle. I don't believe we (DAL) get PS on our commuter carriers, only mainline. I could be wrong, however.

One more thing. In the past DAL always had a punitive "no one forces you to commute" policy that was ridiculous. Two examples:

1. You were only given a hotel for training "away from your domicile" for ANY training. Therefore if you were an ATL commuter and were going to ATL for 5-6 weeks of training on a new aircraft...it was crashpad time for you! Ridiculous. NWA currently has that exact policy.....agree...ridiculous. No MSP based pilots get a paid hotel room for any type of training.

2. The same applied to PS seats to training "away from domicile." So if you were a CVG pilot going to training in ATL, you got a PS seat, but if you were ATL-based but commuting from elsewhere and going to training, you had to non-rev/jumpseat. NWA does give PS travel to training regardless of base.

However over the years we have actually got some in the mgmt (and ALPA) side with a clue and acknowledged the reality that we have and always will have large numbers of commuters, partially due to the fact that we have closed so many former bases. So given that, here are the new and better rules (compared to years ago).

1. If you are going to training at your base (ex. an ATL-based FL commuter) you WILL get PS to it regardless of the training type.

2. In the above example, you will still not get a paid hotel for recurrent training at your base, but that never last more than three days, so most guys eat it (and of course if you are going to recurrent training "away" from your base you still get the hotel).Same as NWA

3. For all qualification training (i.e. anything other than annual recurrent) you will get a hotel even if the training is at your base. Having been a commuter (and even non-commuter who lives an hour from the airport) who has not gotten a hotel in the past when going from 727 SO to M88 FO and had to pay for a crappy crashpad, I cannot tell you how much better this provision is. It is great. That is much beter than NWA's policy of no hotel room if you are MSP based, even if you live somewhere else.

Long-winded enough?

Overall better language at DAL on this.

 

[DTW320]

We have a lot of folks unhappy about the 70 hour reserve guarantee at DAL. Can any of you DAL reserve types comment on how often you end your month with 70 hours pay? I've heard stories of parlaying some of the reserve rules to end up with a LOT more credit than 70. How often is that possible? I know it would be a guess, but what % of reserve pilots do you think end up over 70 in any given month?

 

[B737 Guy]

Stop being so dramatic.

So tell us all, what happens if it fails?

Let me guess, both airlines will retain lawyers and commence immediate Ch. 7 liquidation proceedings.

What a bunch of suckers you are.

I have to tell you, when I was helping put together your "road show" presentation with Dick and Doug, we didn't think the pilots would buy our spin job so easily. Once again, Uncle Frank has been proven wrong, as ALPO has stepped up to the plate to vet our talking points for us.

I thought at a minimum a lot of pilots would be asking 'hey, if we are doomed without a merger, how will all of the other airlines survive?" Thankfully, most of the NWA and DAL pilots appear to have suffered head trauma of some sort and are supporting our executive bonus agenda.

I admit, I have "bonus envy" with Dick and Doug. An AirTran/Bankruptcy type contract all the way out to around 2015!! I LOVE IT!!

Maybe you pilots aren't such bad guys after all!

Enjoy your SLI!

Your favorite corporate raider,

Frank

(forgot to ask - did Dick offer to provide free lubricant to the DAL pilots for the arbitration process?)

Nothing worse than some panzee pretending to be the biggest a'hole in the aviation world.
I bet your parents are real proud. Do us all a favor and take a flying f*@k in a rolling doughnut!

 

[PuffDriver]

We have a lot of folks unhappy about the 70 hour reserve guarantee at DAL. Can any of you DAL reserve types comment on how often you end your month with 70 hours pay? I've heard stories of parlaying some of the reserve rules to end up with a LOT more credit than 70. How often is that possible? I know it would be a guess, but what % of reserve pilots do you think end up over 70 in any given month?

I'll take a crack at this one. In short, it's tough to do. The way that trip coverage is set up, it's tough to break guarantee. We use a weighted system that attempts to distribute flying equally amongst reserves. Seniority has little to do with how trips get assigned. Unless staffing it critically low--not very often--reserves don't break guarantee.

However, when staffing is low, reserves often use the concept we so lovingly call rolling thunder. In short, a reserve may "green slip" over their off days. If awarded, the value of the trip is paid ABOVE reserve guarantee, AND you get your days off back. Ex: You are off the 1,2,3 of the month. You put in a greenslip and get awarded a 3 day worth 15:45 minutes. As a lineholder, you get double pay--in the new contract--for all of that time which is greater than the ALV or 75 hours, whichever of those two values is less. You do not get your days off back. As a reserve, your new "guarantee" is 85:45 minutes AND you get your days off back immediately following the trip--the 4, 5, and 6. Now, on your NEW days off, 456, you are awarded ANOTHER greenslip worth 15:45. Your guarantee is now 101:00 and your days off are now 7,8,9. And so on. I do not believe that any category is enjoying this now, as we are short staffed but do not appear to be critically short. That is it in a nutshell.


Edit:
We are not happy about the 70 hour guarantee either. It is one of the things that really sucks, and we were hoping would change with the JPWA. A reason you may find some usual yes voters voting no. One of the many reasons I may continue my no vote streak.

 

[PuffDriver]

Passes by over 80% at NWA.

By over 65% at DAL.

No brainer.

Go to a Roadshow. Listen to the words. Look at the charts. About a third of the way into the presentation, you'll begin to see why both MEC's passed this thing unanimously.

NuGuy will vote for this. I'll sit behind him at the MSP Roadshow and youtube his reaction to the "What Happens If It Fails?" section.

Think people! The points you're bringing up were chewed through by both MEC's...and they voted for this.

Why?

True dat. However, some of the Delta guys are starting to adopt the NWA bretherin "what's in it for me" mentality. BOB could find it's way over to our side of the house. Many don't feel so great about the deal the NWA pilots are getting--yes it IS a deal--as compared with the unknown of the SLI. I don't agree with, but can certainly understand, this feeling--especially after the NWA pilots killed the better TA back in FEB with their tantrums, and holding of breath until they got their way.

 

[hockeypilot44]

I really don't think this contract is that great. Doing the math. Let's take a second year reserve first officer on the Airbus for example. NWA current contract pays 75 hours x 65 = 4875/month. New contract will pay 70 hours x 77 = 5390/month. 5390 - 4875 = 515 extra per month. If you take the extra 200/month for health insurance, it is only a raise of about 315/month. This is by no means a huge raise. It will bring parity across the board, and hopefully put the two groups on the same page. I too am not a big fan of the longevity of this agreement. It locks in a concessionary contract well past when both sides' contracts are up on their own.

I believe it will pass on both sides even though I am hoping both sides vote it down.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Poll:

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/mergers-acquisitions/28419-poll-yes-no-dal-nwa-jpwa.html

Go participate - lets put some numbers on this....

Provide a post every now & then to keep it on the front page.

 

[clippyrip]

True dat. However, some of the Delta guys are starting to adopt the NWA bretherin "what's in it for me" mentality. BOB could find it's way over to our side of the house. Many don't feel so great about the deal the NWA pilots are getting--yes it IS a deal--as compared with the unknown of the SLI. I don't agree with, but can certainly understand, this feeling--especially after the NWA pilots killed the better TA back in FEB with their tantrums, and holding of breath until they got their way.

One group is not to blame for February. Every pilot in the world is self centered and only cares about what is in it for them. Delta is no different.

 

[FDJ2]

I really don't think this contract is that great. Doing the math. Let's take a second year reserve first officer on the Airbus for example. NWA current contract pays 75 hours x 65 = 4875/month. New contract will pay 70 hours x 77 = 5390/month. 5390 - 4875 = 515 extra per month. If you take the extra 200/month for health insurance, it is only a raise of about 315/month. This is by no means a huge raise. It will bring parity across the board, and hopefully put the two groups on the same page. I too am not a big fan of the longevity of this agreement. It locks in a concessionary contract well past when both sides' contracts are up on their own.

I believe it will pass on both sides even though I am hoping both sides vote it down.

A few things to think about.

1. Not everyone will be on reserve at 70hr/month.
2. What's the equity value and how does that fit into the equation?
3. How much upward mobility is created by adopting DALPA work rules and staffing formulas.
4. What are your pay rates going forward 2, 3, 4 years and how do they compare to what you would have without this joint contract?
5. What DC payments will you have during this contract compared to what you have now?
6. Will your company be more or less viable with a joint contract and SLI?

If after careful consideration you think you can do better without this joint contract, or you think that the joint negotiating team can get more if you vote no, then by all means vote it down.