NWA/DAL negotiations update

[FDJ2]

Well said!! :beer:

Most of his post was emotionally driven uneducated, ignorant and pure unadulturated bovine excrement!
Just another opinion.

 

[Velvet Jones]

Why Doesn't NWA Aquire DAL?

This is an interesting thread. I have to know if anyone has ever suggested that Northwest aquire Delta? It IS an aquisition of NWA by DAL is it not? Merger sounds kinder and gentler, but it does not appear to be what is happening.

Whilst there is much talk about fairness, both pilot groups are members of the same union. This is unlike the AA/TWA aquisition where there were separate unions, hence governmental legislation to prevent "unfairness" between non-affiliates. My point is that it would seem that "to the victor go the spoils" is not unfair to those taking the risk and benefits of aquiring another business.

I just wonder how it would be if the shoe was on the other foot and NWA was calling the shots. How would the NWA MEC deal with their assimilating DAL pilot group?

Discuss amongst yourselves...

Velvet Jones

 

[RedRum]

How do you do business with an MEC that will not do business?

When you offer to work with someone and their response is "F_U_DAL," the answer is clear and you move on.

NWA pilots did not concoct the FU Delta campaign. F&H at Delta commenced that campaign. That is so plain to see. Where have you seen an FU Delta statement from the NWA MEC. Just isn't true.

It is not the intent of Delta's pilots, or management, to move on without the NWA pilots - but - the fact remains that the result of intransigence is irrelevance.

Well you guys know RA's phone number. You have a communications commitee that has made your point clearly. However, actions speak louder than words. I guess DAL is going to play the game for another 3 weeks. Why even say you will go ahead with Letter 19 if we are not brought to pay parity? If you guys really wanted pay parity on the first day you wouldn't have done your own deal.

ONE AIRLINES ONE CONTRACT

NO HARMONIZATION, PERIOD

 

[~~~^~~~]

Redrum,

Some of your buddies on airlinepilotcentral posted pictures of the "FU DAL" bag stickers. That sentiment was repeated to Delta's negotiators and Delta's management. It wasn't cute or funny. It was inappropriate and set back your effort to reach parity.

Just is not the way to do business.

You had equity, you had parity, you had relative seniority into a larger and growing fleet. Your negotiators turned it down and vowed to fight the merger. Now you complain that you don't have what you left on the table. Well, which is it? You in, or out?

I do want parity on day one. But when your side turns down every reasonable proposal efforts to achieve homogenity wear thin quickly.

~~~^~~~

 

[~~~^~~~]

I have to know if anyone has ever suggested that Northwest aquire Delta? It IS an aquisition of NWA by DAL is it not?

I just wonder how it would be if the shoe was on the other foot and NWA was calling the shots. How would the NWA MEC deal with their assimilating DAL pilot group?

Velvet Jones

No one in a position of influence has ever suggested NWA acquire Delta. I do not know if there is a structural reason, other than size, to account for this fact, or if it is a matter of branding. Steenland and NWA's managers seem to want to cash out, while it has been said that Delta's managers like running Delta. Internally you get the feeling that most Delta people love working for Delta.

It is pretty apparent how NWA's MEC would handle the assimilation of Delta pilots by their actions thus far.

 

[stlflyguy]

This is an interesting thread. I have to know if anyone has ever suggested that Northwest aquire Delta? It IS an aquisition of NWA by DAL is it not? Merger sounds kinder and gentler, but it does not appear to be what is happening.

Whilst there is much talk about fairness, both pilot groups are members of the same union. This is unlike the AA/TWA aquisition where there were separate unions, hence governmental legislation to prevent "unfairness" between non-affiliates. My point is that it would seem that "to the victor go the spoils" is not unfair to those taking the risk and benefits of aquiring another business.

I just wonder how it would be if the shoe was on the other foot and NWA was calling the shots. How would the NWA MEC deal with their assimilating DAL pilot group?

Discuss amongst yourselves...

Velvet Jones

Get over yourself, Velvet. You're putting two large employee groups together...operationally, it's a merger.

While you might view TWA/AA as an "acquisition" it's due to the fact that AA required TWA to file BK as a condition of the "sale."

ALPA National sat on it's overpaid A$$ and did nothing for the TWA pilots while making eyes at the APA.

And now you've the Feds involved due to the atrocities that AA and it's unions committed against the TWA folk.

Maybe "caveat emptor" should be the motto.

stlflyguy

 

[Occam's Razor]

Most of his post was emotionally driven uneducated, ignorant and pure unadulturated bovine excrement!
Just another opinion.

Be nice, please. it is in your best interests.

 

[Occam's Razor]

You have done nothing in your post but prove that you feel you are better than NWA and that we dont deserve to prosper from this deal also because DAL is "saving" us.

*Whisper*~ Without NWA DAL would be in serious problems if the economy goes further down the tubes. NWA has the flexibility of parking aircraft if needed with no repercussions of being stuck with leases. That's not good for pilots but its good for the long term success of a company. DAL has massive debts and doesnt have the flexibility to dig in and tough the storm.

Bottom line is both sides bring alot to the table and i think we will knock out a joint contract together but the SLI will go to arbitration. You're right Seniority is Forever hence why our guys arent letting you strongarm us with the SLI. I want a fair deal for both sides but it appears by your posts you want your version of *fair* because you THINK you are better positioned. Show a little character and stop trying to justify your idea of *fair*. We are in this together and to make this a long term successful company it would be smart not to divide the pilot group who will soon make up almost half of OUR list.

Cya Puffy

Be nice, please. it is in your best interests.

 

[Occam's Razor]

So sink it already. We're waiting with baited breath.
<whisper> you don't have the power to sink it.

Be nice, please. it is in your best interests.

 

[Superpilot92]

Redrum,

Some of your buddies on airlinepilotcentral posted pictures of the "FU DAL" bag stickers. That sentiment was repeated to Delta's negotiators and Delta's management. It wasn't cute or funny. It was inappropriate and set back your effort to reach parity. Just because a couple people on a aviation *forum* might have done that doesnt mean thats our MEC stance. I am willing to bet there are a few DAL hotheads on another aviation forum (hint-this one ) that have said and done stupid things. Dont be so quick to label everyone like that. You have seen a response from my rep, did it look like he had a F-U attitude?

Just is not the way to do business. I would agree if it was true and not a union busting firm that DAL employs to spin the info so we have the infighting.

You had equity, you had parity, you had relative seniority into a larger and growing fleet. Your negotiators turned it down and vowed to fight the merger. They vowed to fight the merger as it stand, not the merger in general. Fact is they were locked out with LOA 19 and regardless of what you think is true or not the majority of NWA felt that DALPA was throwing us under the bus. Now you complain that you don't have what you left on the table. Well, which is it? You in, or out?

I do want parity on day one. But when your side turns down every reasonable proposal efforts to achieve homogenity wear thin quickly. Does that mean that your side didnt turn down any proposals from NWALPA? This is a joint venture therefore it has to be a joint deal not a DALPA proposal aka "offer". DALPA appeared to be attempting to strongarm NWALPA at first. BOTH sides through up a wall and hopefully now we can tear that down and move forward. We need to keep the union busting firms from further dividing us.

~~~^~~~

:beer:

 

[Superpilot92]

Be nice, please. it is in your best interests.

I try, i really do. I am a firm believer that we are in on this together and the last thing we need is infighting. :beer:

 

[RedRum]

Did you mention seniority?

Redrum,

Some of your buddies on airlinepilotcentral posted pictures of the "FU DAL" bag stickers. That sentiment was repeated to Delta's negotiators and Delta's management. It wasn't cute or funny. It was inappropriate and set back your effort to reach parity.

Just is not the way to do business.

You had equity, you had parity, you had relative seniority into a larger and growing fleet. Your negotiators turned it down and vowed to fight the merger. Now you complain that you don't have what you left on the table. Well, which is it? You in, or out?

I do want parity on day one. But when your side turns down every reasonable proposal efforts to achieve homogenity wear thin quickly.

~~~^~~~

The FU Delta stickers were based on emotions that were riding high at the time. There is no doubt that they did exist and still do. I have seen the stickers. I am sure both sides of negotiators laugh when they see this sort of thing. They have to have known it was goingt o happen. Did you guys have stickers or was anything negative said when Doug Parker pulled into town and tried to take over? I am sure there was.

I agree that we do need to get on board, but that will only happen when we come up with a fair SLI. Sure we had pay parity and work rules in February but that was only if we had agreed to a SLI that really put NWA pilots at a severe disadvantage. On a sticker note, we now have "SENIORITY MATTERS" stickers. I personally think they are a waste of time. The public doesn't care, Delta knows our stance and my elected officers know my opinion. That is all that matters.

I understand that there may be a seniority hit for NWA pilots. No rational pilot here expects to get DOH. We are a passionate group here and we have been pushed to the limit. I think that is what DAL pilots don't really understand. There is a culture of distrust in our management. I am sure that can be alleviated soon with a fair contract and SLI.

In the meantime, we won't sign on to anything that hurts our seniority. We bring a lot to the table including cash from the blood-letting that occured during our BK negotiations.

ONE AIRLINE ONE CONTRACT

 

[General Lee]

Be nice, please. it is in your best interests.

So, take the entertainment out of this board? This aint a sim Occam. You can't just hit the "stop motion" button. I understand you want us all to play nice, but this board isn't your sim, and you cannot police it. Thanks for trying, and we understand your message.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

So, take the entertainment out of this board? This aint a sim Occam. You can't just hit the "stop motion" button. I understand you want us all to play nice, but this board isn't your sim, and you cannot police it. Thanks for trying, and we understand your message.


Dumb~A$$--General Lee

Deleted....I will take Occams advice

 

[~~~^~~~]

Dont be so quick to label everyone like that. You have seen a response from my rep, did it look like he had a F-U attitude?

Superpilot: That is true and absolutely correct, despite the fact that others on this board do not have a clue what we're making reference to. In fact, I'm a little jealous.

 

[General Lee]

Deleted....I will take Occams advice

That's great. But, Occam doesn't police this board. He can give advice, but berating us for "entertainment" and then himself stating "there is no intelligent life" on this board, is ridiculous.

Here was his post:

Originally Posted by Occam's Razor
"blah blah blah Doo Doo Heads! blah blah blah blah

blah You Are Too! blah blah blah blah blah blah

blah blah blah blah blah Butt Face! blah blah blah

blah Oh, Huh! blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

Beam me up, Scotty! There's no sign of intelligent life here!"




So, he can have fun, but the rest of us cannot......Riiight. This is NOT his sim.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

I agree that we do need to get on board, but that will only happen when we come up with a fair SLI. Sure we had pay parity and work rules in February but that was only if we had agreed to a SLI that really put NWA pilots at a severe disadvantage.

I understand that there may be a seniority hit for NWA pilots.

I do not understand. Really, I don't understand why you feel like equal seniority to wgat you have now is a "hit." Especially when you consider the fleet. Can you explain your basis?

You and I both are being "managed." Occam is smart enough to have promoted himself into "expectations manager." Our union will get us to sign off on a joint contract that increases our pay, while we remain clueless as to SLI methodology.

That is probably the right strategy for ALPA and the right strategy to protect us from our own self interest based mutual assured distruction.

I do not understand why NWA pilots did not eagerly accept relative seniority. Can someone explain the "other side" to me?

 

[767/757]

Be nice, please. it is in your best interests.

I think that he is on to something - cut the BS from the peanut gallery and let those from both airlines who are on the same side of the table now negotiate with MGT.

It is time to learn to play nice.

 

[Superpilot92]

I do not understand. Really, I don't understand why you feel like equal seniority to wgat you have now is a "hit." Especially when you consider the fleet. Can you explain your basis?

You and I both are being "managed." Occam is smart enough to have promoted himself into "expectations manager." Our union will get us to sign off on a joint contract that increases our pay, while we remain clueless as to SLI methodology. Thats fine, i am sure we can all agree on payscales and QOL increases, right? The SLI is much more complex.

That is probably the right strategy for ALPA and the right strategy to protect us from our own self interest based mutual assured distruction. I agree its the right decision. It protects us from ourselves so we can start moving in the right decision. A joint contract is something we can probably get knocked out quickly because it will benefit us all on the same level.

I do not understand why NWA pilots did not eagerly accept relative seniority. Can someone explain the "other side" to me I am sure we can agree there are many more factors involved. We both have good people looking at every aspect of this. None of us can answer that just like you cant because we dont have all the facts.?

Lets get the Joint contract done so we can get this thing moving in the right direction. :beer:

 

[~~~^~~~]

A joint contract is something we can probably get knocked out quickly because it will benefit us all on the same level.

'eh, no. Not even close.

$50 v/s $30 now. $81 v/s $58 in a few months 0 to 5% v/s 11% just between mi amigo and me. 40% v/s "nothing I aint already got" isn't "the same level."

You're welcome for our negotiating capital. Now come and get our seniority.

Now I better run along, eat some grass and be a good sheeple. Sorry Occam, baa'aa baa'aa, this sure is yummy grass....

Bottom line, I have confidence in both MEC's and I'm a grass eater. But, at least be honest - this is a heck of a windfall for you.