NWA/DAL + Air France $750 Mil

[DTW320]

But wait, you don't have big delays in DTW, so where then? MSP or DSM? Maybe Minot or Fargo?

Bye Bye--General Lee

ATL when they turn the airport around. Or ATL trying to get out of 4 or 5N in the center of the RJ universe.

 

[General Lee]

ATL when they turn the airport around. Or ATL trying to get out of 4 or 5N in the center of the RJ universe.

When they turn the airport around? Doesn't that happen at any airport when they turn it around? And you don't have RJs at DTW? Come on now, that was weak.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DTW320]

When they turn the airport around? Doesn't that happen at any airport when they turn it around? And you don't have RJs at DTW? Come on now, that was weak.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Oh, YOU edit your post to remove reference to MSP, DSM, MOT,& FAR regarding delays but I'm weak? Good one!

To answer your ? though, I've never seen a delay on turning the airport around like I have in ATL. Doesn't bother me though. Still paid by the hour. And, yes, we have RJ's in DTW, but nowhere NEAR the numbers you have in ATL

 

[Sedona16]

Right around when Gerry G. left Delta was getting ready to place an order for 125 787's. The merger timeline then picked up spead when Anderson came on board and those orders were not seen as necessary due to the birds NWA already had on order. If this merger falls through expect a larger order for 787's along with more 777's.

 

[Noserider76]

Right around when Gerry G. left Delta was getting ready to place an order for 125 787's. The merger timeline then picked up spead when Anderson came on board and those orders were not seen as necessary due to the birds NWA already had on order. If this merger falls through expect a larger order for 787's along with more 777's.

You're right there. Whitehurst spilled the beans on the 125 787s last summer which may be part of the reason he got the ax. Looks like Anderson may be setting up to say "we tried but couldn't do it, let's move on." Or maybe it's wishful thinking on my part. From his recorded mesage to employees Friday,

"Delta has a strong standalone plan and will only move forward with consolidation if such a move meets the company's goals." He offered no details on any talks, saying only, "We'll keep you posted."

 

[Schwanker]

....and the 787 is great for making bases like NRT obsolete.

I guess some folks won't get it. NRT is an enormous intra-Asia O&D market. 5th Freedom Rights allows you to play that market as if you're the hometown airline. Your limited vision of NRT is it's for connecting traffic. When $$ becomes obsolete, so will NRT.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

I guess if NRT will be obsolete, you must lump ATL,CVG,CLT,PHL,DTW,DFW,MSP,ORD, etc. I don't understand why this is so hard to understand. While the 777,787 type a/c are able to overfly will there be the traffic? No. If you want to get from Macon to Manila lets say, you are going thru at least two hubs to get there. This is the value of NRT, just like ATL is for the Southeast.

I guess some folks won't get it. NRT is an enormous intra-Asia O&D market. 5th Freedom Rights allows you to play that market as if you're the hometown airline. Your limited vision of NRT is it's for connecting traffic. When $$ becomes obsolete, so will NRT.

 

[jetflier]

General,
You said "Looking for more 742s? Go look towards UPS--they are dumping theirs....Well, some aviation folks think the 744s are going to replace the 742s. High oil will make Steenland think twice about keeping that gas guzzling fleet alive. Look at every Pacific Rim airline out there flying cargo. Every one is replacing their 742s with 744s--JAL Cargo, NCA, Cathay, etc. They are also replacing their PAX 744s with 773s. The only airline adding larger planes is Singapore currently (A380)".

NWA management is smart. They have the best numbers , look at the last quarter results, even with the high price of fuel.

They look for aircraft that supply cheap lift, and then fly the H#ll out of them, thusly avoiding the high operating costs associated with new aircraft price$ and leasing costs.

Many of the asian carriers are government subsidised and will easilly pay for new aircraft. Asians are noted for maintaining the proper appearance, a custom of theirs. Maintaining face and keeping ahead of their rivals is so very importantant to them.

So, yes they are ridding their airlines of old aircraft, and aquiring new "fuel efficient" aircraft. but thats "saving face".

NWA will continue to look there for aircraft bargins, so don't write off our cargo ops just yet.

 

[johnsonrod]

General,
You said "Looking for more 742s? Go look towards UPS--they are dumping theirs....Well, some aviation folks think the 744s are going to replace the 742s. High oil will make Steenland think twice about keeping that gas guzzling fleet alive. Look at every Pacific Rim airline out there flying cargo. Every one is replacing their 742s with 744s--JAL Cargo, NCA, Cathay, etc. They are also replacing their PAX 744s with 773s. The only airline adding larger planes is Singapore currently (A380)".

NWA management is smart. They have the best numbers , look at the last quarter results, even with the high price of fuel.

They look for aircraft that supply cheap lift, and then fly the H#ll out of them, thusly avoiding the high operating costs associated with new aircraft price$ and leasing costs.

Many of the asian carriers are government subsidised and will easilly pay for new aircraft. Asians are noted for maintaining the proper appearance, a custom of theirs. Maintaining face and keeping ahead of their rivals is so very importantant to them.

So, yes they are ridding their airlines of old aircraft, and aquiring new "fuel efficient" aircraft. but thats "saving face".

NWA will continue to look there for aircraft bargins, so don't write off our cargo ops just yet.

Are you referring to the increasing number of Compass E175s and Mesaba CR9s?

 

[jetflier]

I guess if NRT will be obsolete, you must lump ATL,CVG,CLT,PHL,DTW,DFW,MSP,ORD, etc. I don't understand why this is so hard to understand. While the 777,787 type a/c are able to overfly will there be the traffic? No. If you want to get from Macon to Manila lets say, you are going thru at least two hubs to get there. This is the value of NRT, just like ATL is for the Southeast.

Great post.

Narita is a hub for connecting pax, but more importantly, originating traffic traveling beyond and into other asian and south pacific destinations. Northwest picks up incredible o&d traffic comprised of both passengers and freight.

The 787 mission has been explained to us a launching new nonstops from the US. Austrailia, Kuala lumpur as well as other impossible to reach destinations were mentioned as new 787 markets.

The 787 was never mentioned as a replacement for any aircraft, 'cause it is made for a new mission, thin ultra long-range flights, generating new markets.

 

[clippyrip]

The 787s are not even on the property so until that happens they dont belong to anyone. If they are aquired after a merger, would they not belong to the "new" entity and be bid on by whoever can hold them?

Let me guess.....you work for Delta.

 

[jetflier]

Johnson,....
" NWA will continue to look there for aircraft bargins, so don't write off our cargo ops just yet."

You missed the last sentence,....umless of course you're trying to flame us

 

[Superpilot92]

Are you referring to the increasing number of Compass E175s and Mesaba CR9s?

Those aircraft have a cap and will soon be capped out. How many 70 seaters does DAL have flying for you? You DAL guys sure are quick to throw out rants about the regional feed that NWA has but you guys are the Regional Jet Kings of the industry. Whats the limit on RJs DAL can have?

I know it might be hard for you guys to understand what Scope is or what a CAP means, since the reason scope is such a big deal these days is in large part thanks to DAL guys being to good to fly "small" jets.

Bottom line is all flying needs to be done by mainline pilots. Hopefully if a merger happens they will close scope and finally take it back.

 

[DTW320]

Those aircraft have a cap and will soon be capped out. How many 70 seaters does DAL have flying for you? You DAL guys sure are quick to throw out rants about the regional feed that NWA has but you guys are the Regional Jet Kings of the industry. Whats the limit on RJs DAL can have?

I know it might be hard for you guys to understand what Scope is or what a CAP means, since the reason scope is such a big deal these days is in large part thanks to DAL guys being to good to fly "small" jets.

Bottom line is all flying needs to be done by mainline pilots. Hopefully if a merger happens they will close scope and finally take it back.

According to the ALPA E&FA analysis Delta has 350% more ASM's provided by domestic regional affiliates than NWA. DAL regional affiliates produce 22% of DAL revenue vs 10% at NWA. Contract Carrier arrangements are 17% of DAL's total operating expense vs. 8% at NWA.

Cipherin's fun aint'it?

 

[sat74]

Let me guess.....you work for Delta.

Nope! Not NWA and not DAL! Just wondering out loud and waiting to hear thoughts on this whether they are right or wrong.

 

[Noserider76]

According to the ALPA E&FA analysis Delta has 350% more ASM's provided by domestic regional affiliates than NWA. DAL regional affiliates produce 22% of DAL revenue vs 10% at NWA. Contract Carrier arrangements are 17% of DAL's total operating expense vs. 8% at NWA.

Cipherin's fun aint'it?

You're right, we let the cow out of the barn. We retired a boat load of 737-200/300s alone in the last few years that were much more up-to-date than the -9.

Those jobs are now at FreeRepubliPinComASASkymesaChitExpressjet airlines.

I'd much rather see the -9s flying those routes but have no faith those airplanes wouldn't be sheet canned regardless of what anyone's scope language says now. Like it or not, the old fleet at NW is a big part of the reason DL guys are scared of this merger. Concrete scope to protect current -9 jobs would be great until the next force majeure event.

Even if that doesn't happen, the old guys in this industry don't seem to have too much problem with feeding the younger ones to the wolves when push comes to shove.

 

[Superpilot92]

You're right, we let the cow out of the barn. We retired a boat load of 737-200/300s alone in the last few years that were much more up-to-date than the -9.

Those jobs are now at FreeRepubliPinComASASkymesaChitExpressjet airlines.

I'd much rather see the -9s flying those routes but have no faith those airplanes wouldn't be sheet canned regardless of what anyone's scope language says now. Like it or not, the old fleet at NW is a big part of the reason DL guys are scared of this merger. Concrete scope to protect current -9 jobs would be great until the next force majeure event.

Even if that doesn't happen, the old guys in this industry don't seem to have too much problem with feeding the younger ones to the wolves when push comes to shove.

Thats why its important that the negotiators lock scope down. If there was ever a time to do it, now is it.

 

[JoeMerchant]

.....If scope is being discussed....the proposals need to be shared with the affected regional MECs....per the RJDC settlement....I wonder if that is happening.....

 

[FDJ2]

.....If scope is being discussed....the proposals need to be shared with the affected regional MECs....per the RJDC settlement....I wonder if that is happening.....

We'll send you a memo of what we decide, as per the settlement.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Superpilot92]

.....If scope is being discussed....the proposals need to be shared with the affected regional MECs....per the RJDC settlement....I wonder if that is happening.....

Its definitely being discussed but all i have heard is rumors as to what is being asked for.

 

[JoeMerchant]

We'll send you a memo of what we decide, as per the settlement.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

....that's not what the settlement said.....maybe you should read it.....

 

[Superpilot92]

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/sto...A8-49E1-AC6F-7D0BA75DD20A&dist=SecMostEmailed

a good read, its funny how things change.

 

[~~~^~~~]

.....If scope is being discussed....I wonder if that is happening.....

I've asked that question and have been told the PWAs' current scope language goes forward with no changes. I did not have the opportunity to ask the follow up question regarding conflicts in the two PWAs, but I remember that minor changes would have to be made to resolve things as simple as Delta's preferential hiring and seniority resignation provisions to as major as the number of permitted aircraft types and codeshare. My unconfirmed "feeling" was that if Delta allows 200 big RJ's and NWA allows 72, the new number would be 272.

The ratio for exanding the number of RJ's at either airline is different. I think DAL allows 3 to 1, while NWA allows 1 to 1. The Delta fleet is growing with rumors of the growth accelerating. The NWA fleet is shrinking for now - the NWA guys have a better feel for where their airline is going with future fleet acquisitions. None the less, it would seem if nothing else, the ratios would have to be resolved and hopefully resolved by getting the NWA flying on the mainline list since it is flying now performed by NWA pilots.

My arguement for mergers to bring the flying back to mainline have met with little interest.

 

[FDJ2]

....that's not what the settlement said.....maybe you should read it.....

No, that's about all it says. Face it, Dan Ford and the RJDC threw in the towel. The RJDC lawsuit came apart like a wet taco and Dan Ford caved. He probably didn't want to be humiliated in front of the Judge again.

Expect the memo once we make our decision. :laugh:

 

[JoeMerchant]

I've asked that question and have been told the PWAs' current scope language goes forward with no changes. I did not have the opportunity to ask the follow up question regarding conflicts in the two PWAs, but I remember that minor changes would have to be made to resolve things as simple as Delta's preferential hiring and seniority resignation provisions to as major as the number of permitted aircraft types and codeshare. My unconfirmed "feeling" was that if Delta allows 200 big RJ's and NWA allows 72, the new number would be 272.

The ratio for exanding the number of RJ's at either airline is different. I think DAL allows 3 to 1, while NWA allows 1 to 1. The Delta fleet is growing with rumors of the growth accelerating. The NWA fleet is shrinking for now - the NWA guys have a better feel for where their airline is going with future fleet acquisitions. None the less, it would seem if nothing else, the ratios would have to be resolved and hopefully resolved by getting the NWA flying on the mainline list since it is flying now performed by NWA pilots.

My arguement for mergers to bring the flying back to mainline have met with little interest. The military guys are excellent pilots, but if I can speak in very broad terms, it appears to me they see this as clear as the distinction between officer and enlisted. There is no rational reason to try to keep "regional flying" off the mainline list but somehow they see the line clearly when I can't see it at all.

Thanks for the update fins.....You have much more patience than I do....The problem you accurately described above was exactly the same problem when the PID was filed......A leopard doesn't change it's spots and neither does DALPA....

 

[JoeMerchant]

No, that's about all it says. Face it, Dan Ford and the RJDC threw in the towel. The RJDC lawsuit came apart like a wet taco and Dan Ford caved. He probably didn't want to be humiliated in front of the Judge again.

Expect the memo once we make our decision. :laugh:

[FONT=Arial,sans-serif] The agreement calls for significant additions to ALPA's internal policies and practices, including:[/FONT]

1. [FONT=Arial,sans-serif]Mandatory pre-bargaining disclosure between mainline/express pilot groups.[/FONT]
2. [FONT=Arial,sans-serif]The ability of mainline/express negotiating committees to consult with each other on proposed scope bargaining plans.[/FONT]
3. [FONT=Arial,sans-serif]Review of scope goals and scope bargaining proposals by a special subcommittee of the national collective bargaining committee. [/FONT]

 

[737 Pylt]

[FONT=Arial,sans-serif] The agreement calls for significant additions to ALPA's internal policies and practices, including:[/FONT]

1. [FONT=Arial,sans-serif]Mandatory pre-bargaining disclosure between mainline/express pilot groups.[/FONT]
2. [FONT=Arial,sans-serif]The ability of mainline/express negotiating committees to consult with each other on proposed scope bargaining plans.[/FONT]
3. [FONT=Arial,sans-serif]Review of scope goals and scope bargaining proposals by a special subcommittee of the national collective bargaining committee. [/FONT]

Like FDJ2 said John, we'll send you the memo!
BTW, what on earth did you, dan, jessee, n2264j and all the other losers at the rjdc do with all those $$millions you collected from your big win?:laugh: :laugh:

737

 

[~~~^~~~]

Joe - part of my patience is an open admission that I do not know everything and am open to learn something new.

DALPA is a very professional and intelligent group who have evolved. As evidence, I submit D ALPA's pro active involvement in Delta's merger(s). DALPA's current role is unprecedented.

For years Delta IMHO has been hijacked by outside consultants (Leo was brought in via Allen's McKinsey consultant group) and now maybe Anderson. D ALPA has successfully put Delta pilots back at the table with a position of authority & relevance.

The PID was percieved as a threat (although it was not). Like any rational group the Delta pilots organized to resist an external threat.

The PID failed because the politics were terribly bungled - something that you might consider before throwing rocks at other folks. Hey, I'll admit I share some blame there too, although as a second month E120 FO I did not know much more than the emergency action items for a V1 prop overspeed.

Bygones...

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe - part of my patience is an open admission that I do not know everything and am open to learn something new.

DALPA is a very professional and intelligent group who have evolved. As evidence, I submit D ALPA's pro active involvement in Delta's merger(s). DALPA's current role is unprecedented.

For years Delta IMHO has been hijacked by outside consultants (Leo was brought in via Allen's McKinsey consultant group) and now maybe Anderson. D ALPA has successfully put Delta pilots back at the table with a position of authority & relevance.

The PID was percieved as a threat (although it was not). Like any rational group the Delta pilots organized to resist an external threat.

The PID failed because the politics were terribly bungled - there should have been guarantees of a staple + gratitude. It was a lost opportunity that you and I share some blame for.

Sorry.....gotta disagree with you now.....I don't want to become furlough fodder or be bumped down....If that is what this is about than forget it.....Even you in the past advocated a W2 style merger....That isn't a staple....The most I would accept is a double staple....

You yourself said the military folks at Delta seem more concerned with not having to start out in an RJ....That is ego driven.....

You have a different perspective because you are on the otherside of the fence....You also are concerned, and rightly so, about job protection.....Some of us however aren't interested in becoming a cushion for those of you who decided to jump over the fence.....

Those ASA pilots who want to get stapled to the bottom of the list already have that ability.....You took advantage of it....

If the way the PID was handled meant not getting stapled....then I don't think anything was bungled....

It's really a moot point now.....the window of opportunity has passed and we are not owned by Delta anymore.....I think we will all have to live with the results....

 

[~~~^~~~]

Joe - there are advantages for both sides. But you have to look at it from the perspective of those you are trying to sell your ideas to. Of course the mainline guys only interest is job security, they want 777's and 787's under their command - they don't covet RJ's.

I'm not sure what you mean by a double staple, but something like the "fair" plan I posted seems to be palatable to most. The folks who interviewed, took a $100,000+ pay cut (as many ASA LCA's have done) & slogged through a commute to a far away base to fly MD88's on reserve are never going to accept something that does not give them pay back on their sacrifice and investment in their careers. That's understandable.

....and of course the job security arguement is a two way street. Bombardier and other manufacturers are getting designs for the GTF powered jets ready. These 100 to 130 seat jets are going to be every bit as revolutionary as the 787 (or RJ) and they are not going to be contracted out.

Most industry watchers anticipate that cities like VLD, MCN and BQK can't be supported with a few RJ's a day and will go away as a result of their infastructure costs. Cities like SAV will grow with larger jets which can more efficiently carry more passengers with equal frequency due to increased O&D traffic.

You and I both want to be on the correct side of that trend.