NWA/DAL 2000 Payrates

[Deadend]

Does anyone know where I can find pay scales from 2000? Just would be nice to see what we will never see again.

 

[Monster Buck]

Hopefully you were just kidding. Yeah they were great and it will be a while but this is exactly the kind of thinking that will hurt us in 2012.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Referring to 2000 pay scale:

Hopefully you were just kidding. Yeah they were great and it will be a while but this is exactly the kind of thinking that will hurt us in 2012.

Are you serious you are afraid of getting paid? Are CEO and 400 plus management jobs getting paid more than they did in 2000? Have bonuses been paid for losing money since 2000?

Pay Me! Any pilot who argues they are not worth $400 per hour as a widebody captain and $250 for a narrow body just as SWA is paid is on crack.

Has health insurance gone down in price? Has gasoline gone down in price since 2000? Has housing in desirable places to live gone down in price since 2000 even though it is off the bubble pricing of 2006? Everything cost more than 2000 costs!

Yes transcon airline tickets still cost $200 a ticket just as they did in 1985 but that is management stupid fault. Not the pilots.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Inflation is a hidden government controlled tax which always increases. If you don't get it I am not explaining it morons.

And there is no such thing as deflation in fiat currency system. It is a temporary phases prior to hyperinflation, double digit.

 

[Monster Buck]

Either I worded my post wrong or you quoted the wrong person. I was saying that Delta pilots thinking we can't get back the 2000 pay scales is what will hurt us in 2012.

 

[Deadend]

I am all for the 2K payrates. Just dont have them on my computer anymore. If anyone has them please post.

 

[BRA]

Here is some info that was used for research into the work that Allegiant needs to do. At the time not one Delta captain made under $200 per hour. I remember something about delta express that flew 737-200's at a lower rate in the late 90's but I have no idea how exactly that worked. I think they also got very quick upgrades. These are a sample of the old delta rates from 2000:

MD80CA 737NGFO
11 $235 $174
10 $232 $172
9 $229 $170
8 $227 $168
7 $225 $164
6 $223 $160
5 $221 $156
4 $219 $152
3 $217 $149
2 $215 $127
1 $213 $56

Guarantee was 65 hours. 12 year 777 CA rate was $320


As for NWA, the 3rd year DC-9 CA rate was $178, 3rd year FO DC-9 rate was $107.

 

[Superpilot92]

Here is some info that was used for research into the work that Allegiant needs to do. At the time not one Delta captain made under $200 per hour. I remember something about delta express that flew 737-200's at a lower rate in the late 90's but I have no idea how exactly that worked. I think they also got very quick upgrades. These are a sample of the old delta rates from 2000:

MD80CA 737NGFO
11 $235 $174
10 $232 $172
9 $229 $170
8 $227 $168
7 $225 $164
6 $223 $160
5 $221 $156
4 $219 $152
3 $217 $149
2 $215 $127
1 $213 $56

Guarantee was 65 hours. 12 year 777 CA rate was $320


As for NWA, the 3rd year DC-9 CA rate was $178, 3rd year FO DC-9 rate was $107.

But the NWA guarantee was higher correct? 75 hours

 

[Hamfighter]

People totally forget the minimum guarantees! Southwest not only has the highest 737 pay rates, but also a 79 hour guarantee for reserve (78 for lineholders)!
Just as important as pay rates in negotiations!!!

 

[vtwo]

I have said it before and will say it again


It IS NOT hourly rate we need to look at.
We need real facts. W2 at the end of the year, vs Time away from Home.
WTF......

 

[BOOZENEWS]

Yes transcon airline tickets still cost $200 a ticket just as they did in 1985 but that is management stupid fault. Not the pilots.

That is correct. It however IS the pilot faults COMPLETELY for voting in concessionary contracts.

Is it stunning that in 2002-03 these guys really believed that taking a 40% paycut would really save the company when the price of oil was less than $30 a barrell back then.

You guys only have yourselves to blame for taking the concessions. It's not right, but its the truth.

 

[CesnaCaptn]

http://web.archive.org/web/20040326123328/http://www.airlinepilotpay.com/

These are '04 rates, but I think this is what you're looking for.

 

[CesnaCaptn]

Inflation is a hidden government controlled tax which always increases. If you don't get it I am not explaining it morons.

And there is no such thing as deflation in fiat currency system. It is a temporary phases prior to hyperinflation, double digit.

I'm one of those morons. Can you please post a link explaining this gvt tax or can you explain it using small word (pictures would be even better)?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Contract 2000+ COLA needs to be our opener.

No cease of payrate increase each year either- that crap is rediculous. The payrates should continue to get COLA bumps each year regardless of the amendable date.

 

[sat74]

Sorry for the screwed up formatting:

Compensation
12-Year Captain Hourly Base Rates
Aircraft Model Current Rate 5/1/00 Retro 5/1/01 5/1/02 5/1/03 5/1/04
B-777 258.11 268.01 280.07 292.68 305.85 319.61
MD-11 230.42 255.64 267.14 279.16 291.71 304.84
B-767-400ER 243.80 253.15 264.54 276.45 288.89 301.89
L-15 223.32 249.00 260.21 271.91 284.15 296.84
L-10 218.23 242.28 253.18 264.57 276.48 288.92
B-767-300ER 205.60 224.33 234.43 244.98 256.00 267.52
B-767-300 203.25 224.33 234.43 244.98 256.00 267.52
B-767-200 201.94 224.33 234.43 244.98 256.00 267.52
B-757 198.14 224.33 234.43 244.98 256.00 267.52
B-737-800 201.65 215.12 224.80 234.92 245.49 256.53
B-727 183.34 203.84 213.01 222.60 232.61 243.08
MD-90 175.23 203.84 213.01 222.60 232.61 243.08
MD-88 175.00 199.05 208.01 217.37 227.15 237.37
B-737-300G 183.87 193.56 202.27 211.37 220.88 230.82
B-737-300 172.51 193.56 202.27 211.37 220.88 230.82
B-737-700 Express NA NA 178.89 194.65 211.47 229.67
B-737-200 Express 126.95 148.19 161.08 175.27 190.42 206.79
Notes:
• Night and International Overrides are NOT included above
• Mainline B-737-200 retro pay based on B-737-300 pay rate
• Rates represent 1% more than UAL on all aircraft for the entire duration of the contract
• Rates on 5/1/04 vary from 24% to 39% over present book on the mainline and 63% at Express (note: 4/22/01 code-a-phone message contained typo regarding pay rates; incorrectly stated range was 24% to 34% rather than 39%)
• Increased first year pay from $36.03 to $48 ($50/52/54/56 in 01/02/03/04 respectively)
• Increase new-hire pilots training pay from $2000 to $2,750 per month

 

[instructordude]

Those payrates are unsustainable in todays competitive market. Be realistic in your demands.

 

[Paul R. Smith]

I have said it before and will say it again


It IS NOT hourly rate we need to look at.
We need real facts. W2 at the end of the year, vs Time away from Home.
WTF......

They had that too back then.
Rates and Rigs.

I agree though that folks get hung up on rates and don't look at the big picture.

 

[General Lee]

Those payrates are unsustainable in todays competitive market. Be realistic in your demands.

It takes 3 Southwest crews (on 3 seperate 737s)to carry the same amount of people and cargo as a 777 crew, yet the 777 Captain makes less than the SWA Captain. So, if the SWA Captain makes $210 an hour----3 of them equals $630 an hour. So, if our 777 carries twice the cargo and makes twice the revenue, there is no way he can make $300 an hour, which again is half of what it takes Southwest to carry the same amount of people and cargo? Unsustainable to ask for half of the $630 an hour? You are wrong. Now, we use 757s and 767s on routes that are common with SWA routes (like SEA to SLC, and LAX to SLC), and those planes are twice the size (757 vs 737) of the SWA planes, meaning 2 SWA planes equals a 757 or 767---cargo and pax compared to a 737, meaning $420 an hour for 2 SWA Captains vs one of ours making $170 an hour. Again, you are wrong.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

It takes 3 Southwest crews (on 3 seperate 737s)to carry the same amount of people and cargo as a 777 crew, yet the 777 Captain makes less than the SWA Captain. So, if the SWA Captain makes $210 an hour----3 of them equals $630 an hour. So, if our 777 carries twice the cargo and makes twice the revenue, there is no way he can make $300 an hour, which again is half of what it takes Southwest to carry the same amount of people and cargo? Unsustainable to ask for half of the $630 an hour? You are wrong. Now, we use 757s and 767s on routes that are common with SWA routes (like SEA to SLC, and LAX to SLC), and those planes are twice the size (757 vs 737) of the SWA planes, meaning 2 SWA planes equals a 757 or 767---cargo and pax compared to a 737, meaning $420 an hour for 2 SWA Captains vs one of ours making $170 an hour. Again, you are wrong.


Bye Bye--General Lee

It would be easy if it worked that way Gen, only problem is that it doesn't.

 

[LandGreen]

It would be easy if it worked that way Gen, only problem is that it doesn't.

Is this coming from an RJ guy?

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Is this coming from an RJ guy?

Yes it is tweedle dumb. I wish it worked at way but it doesn't.

 

[RedDogC130]

It takes 3 Southwest crews (on 3 seperate 737s)to carry the same amount of people and cargo as a 777 crew, yet the 777 Captain makes less than the SWA Captain. So, if the SWA Captain makes $210 an hour----3 of them equals $630 an hour. So, if our 777 carries twice the cargo and makes twice the revenue, there is no way he can make $300 an hour, which again is half of what it takes Southwest to carry the same amount of people and cargo? Unsustainable to ask for half of the $630 an hour? You are wrong. Now, we use 757s and 767s on routes that are common with SWA routes (like SEA to SLC, and LAX to SLC), and those planes are twice the size (757 vs 737) of the SWA planes, meaning 2 SWA planes equals a 757 or 767---cargo and pax compared to a 737, meaning $420 an hour for 2 SWA Captains vs one of ours making $170 an hour. Again, you are wrong.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Not sure on the math here because I do not know the pax capacity on the other aircraft but if you fly a 777 12 hours and carry x amount of people on 1 leg and our 737 flies 12 hours with multiple legs with x amount of total pax which plane makes more $$ over the 12 hours? typical 12 hours in SWA life is 6-7 legs......lets say we fill it up 137 people each leg. 7 x 137 = 959 people. lets say the average fare is $150 that equals $143,850...pilot cost $3200 based on a max out capt and 3rd year FO give or take a few bucks with our weird system of pay on a 12 hours scale. Someone fill in the blanks with the other numbers for a 777 numbers and see what it somes out to.

 

[General Lee]

It would be easy if it worked that way Gen, only problem is that it doesn't.

Thanks Dad, but yes it does. Comparing a Delta 757 or 767 to SLC from either of those cities with 2 SWA 737s is a great comparison. We fly twice the cargo, along with twice the pax--probably at about the same fares. Our pilots make less than half of what it takes to fly 2 SWA planes. It's great that SWA does well, and since BK and all of the pension clean ups etc, we are in better financial shape too. We are going to go for a lot better pay, and we deserve to get back some of what we lost-- a lot of it. And, SWA has to thank us for getting their rates up to where they are now (they compared our C2K rates to their's at the time), and we are happy to look at their rates during our next negotiations. To say otherwise is just wrong.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Not sure on the math here because I do not know the pax capacity on the other aircraft but if you fly a 777 12 hours and carry x amount of people on 1 leg and our 737 flies 12 hours with multiple legs with x amount of total pax which plane makes more $$ over the 12 hours? typical 12 hours in SWA life is 6-7 legs......lets say we fill it up 137 people each leg. 7 x 137 = 959 people. lets say the average fare is $150 that equals $143,850...pilot cost $3200 based on a max out capt and 3rd year FO give or take a few bucks with our weird system of pay on a 12 hours scale. Someone fill in the blanks with the other numbers for a 777 numbers and see what it somes out to.

Our 777LRs make LARGE bank on INTL flights (like Bombay (Mumbai) to ATL or Jo-berg to ATL), and those legs are over 14 hours long. They wouldn't be operating if they were not. Also, SWA planes only fly during the day, whereas our planes (738s and up) fly all day and all night usually). Hey, we lost a lot in BK and it is time to make some of that up. We are happy to use your current rates as a benchmark. (you used ours when you got your higher rates)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Our 777LRs make LARGE bank on INTL flights (like Bombay (Mumbai) to ATL or Jo-berg to ATL), and those legs are over 14 hours long. They wouldn't be operating if they were not. Also, SWA planes only fly during the day, whereas our planes (738s and up) fly all day and all night usually). Hey, we lost a lot in BK and it is time to make some of that up. We are happy to use your current rates as a benchmark. (you used ours when you got your higher rates)

Bye Bye--General Lee

Joberg, Lagos, and Dubai, yes..... Mumbai ceased operation a few days ago, i believe. If not, it's being pulled shortly. The yields weren't there. SYD is recovering and loads are picking up.

We're connecting through AMS with A330's to Mumbai.

 

[EMBpilot]

Just would be nice to see what we will never see again.

Why don't we stick together and double them.

If all stay on the same page - thats what it will take to fly airplanes.

 

[General Lee]

Joberg, Lagos, and Dubai, yes..... Mumbai ceased operation a few days ago, i believe. If not, it's being pulled shortly. The yields weren't there. SYD is recovering and loads are picking up.

We're connecting through AMS with A330's to Mumbai.

Yeah, I know. The reason we started that route was that at the time it was doing very well. The World economy has hurt that route, and even Air India is pulling the nonstops to JFK from Delhi and Mumbai. (going to 1 stoppers via LHR and FRA) But, my point is that Delta tends to put the 777s on routes that can do well. Do our Captains on it deserve AT LEAST what SWA 737 Captains make? Ummm, yeah, and I would say more thanks to the profit potential on each flight. We will be asking for it during upcoming negotiations. (and that 777 Capt pay is the same as 744 Capt pay---both of which need to come up)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Griswold]

General, I like it. Now tell me more about your DFW rumors.

 

[instructordude]

It's not what you think you are worth but what the company can pay. The economy is debilitating right now.

"Ask not what your company can do for you but what you can do for your company."

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Yeah, I know. The reason we started that route was that at the time it was doing very well. The World economy has hurt that route, and even Air India is pulling the nonstops to JFK from Delhi and Mumbai. (going to 1 stoppers via LHR and FRA) But, my point is that Delta tends to put the 777s on routes that can do well. Do our Captains on it deserve AT LEAST what SWA 737 Captains make? Ummm, yeah, and I would say more thanks to the profit potential on each flight. We will be asking for it during upcoming negotiations. (and that 777 Capt pay is the same as 744 Capt pay---both of which need to come up)


Bye Bye--General Lee

Absolutely agreed!