NWA and the 787

[festus]

Updated: 09:57 PM EDT
Northwest Airlines Set To Order Up To 18 Boeing 787s

DALLAS -- Northwest Airlines Corp. (NWAC) is in final negotiations to order as many as 18 Boeing 787 Dreamliner airplanes after ruling out a competing proposal from longtime supplier Airbus, people familiar with the situation told The Wall Street Journal.

The deal would be worth a total of about $2.1 billion at list prices. If concluded, it would expand a recent string of wins for Boeing Co.'s (BA) newest airplane, a twin-engine 250-seater being billed by the company as 20% cheaper to operate than other jetliners its size.

The loss would a blow for Airbus, which had been hoping that Northwest's existing fleet of A330 jetliners would give it the home court advantage with its proposed new A350 jetliner.

But according to several people familiar with the situation, the airline recently notified Airbus that it had decided to pursue a deal with Boeing. The airline also has picked engines from General Electric Co. (GE) over those made by Rolls-Royce PLC, giving GE an important win as well.

A Northwest spokesman declined to confirm whether the Eagan, Minn., airline had selected the 787, saying "Northwest continues to be in discussions with all of our manufacturers."

Spokespeople for Boeing and GE declined to comment, citing policies about not commenting on negotiations with customers. An Airbus spokeswoman also declined to comment.

- By J. Lynn Lunsford and Daniel Michaels, The Wall Street Journal

Dow Jones Newswires 04-11-052141ET

 

[aa73]

Sounds like NWA just might be the 2nd legacy to start hiring again.

Here comes the end -of - decade boom! ... repeating history for the last 40 years!

73

 

[fly4ever]

GuppyKiller,

I'll bet you've heard this before but your screen name is offensive to everyone that has lost so much over the past few years. Given your posted lack of total experience I would bet you are one of the clueless that also have the sticker on your bag and then ask to jumpseat on a mainline carrier.

It's time to "GET A CLUE". When the hiring does turn around at the mainline carriers as it has with Continental you'll be left wondering why you can't get on with one of them.

 

[Flechas]

GuppyKiller is EMB170Pilot.
You should get banned forever dude. Your attitude is the reason nobody likes Chitaco..

 

[habubuaza]

Remeber how long NWA had those A330s on order for! Just because they ordered them doesn't mean they will actually take delivery of them when they said. They probably ordered them now just to get a good early delivery price.

A330 isn't exactly what I'd call a stellar piece of equipment.

 

[FlyingSig]

Or NWA could be using a play in the CAL book. Order a bunch of 787's this month. Then next month say that if we don't get $XXX million in concessions from employees we're gonna not only cancel the new airplanes, but we're gonna park a bunch of current airplanes and furlough a boatload of you guys.

Worked like a charm at CAL.

 

[RampTower]

A330 isn't exactly what I'd call a stellar piece of equipment.

Yet, it's a proven glider!

 

[habubuaza]

Yet, it's a proven glider!

True.

 

[Whale Rider]

Boeing has been winning orders all over the industry.....All over the world....Its nice to see American Flag Carriers order Boeings again.

 

[JetMonkey]

A330 isn't exactly what I'd call a stellar piece of equipment.

How the hell would you know? It looks like you don't have ANY Airbus experience listed.

 

[habubuaza]

How the hell would you know? It looks like you don't have ANY Airbus experience listed.

Well, you would probably have a hard time finding a lot of A330 pilots since most airlines aren't crazy enough to actually order them. I can understand you being defensive. I guess I would be upset too if all I'd flown were foreign throw away airplanes.

 

[fatburger]

Careful..............hububuaza is a 737 f/o and knows everything there is to know about the Airbus. I suggest you save your comments until you've actually flown one. I have a type in the 320 (1200hrs) and have flown the 330 sim and ridden the jumpseat. It is an impressive aircraft all the way around.

Cat 3b single engine autoland approach.............in my opinion, that is impressive.

-fatburger-

 

[Flywrite]

Well, you would probably have a hard time finding a lot of A330 pilots since most airlines aren't crazy enough to actually order them. I can understand you being defensive. I guess I would be upset too if all I'd flown were foreign throw away airplanes.

Yeah, and if you fly too far you go right off the edge of the Earth too!

 

[kevdog]

Well, you would probably have a hard time finding a lot of A330 pilots since most airlines aren't crazy enough to actually order them. I can understand you being defensive. I guess I would be upset too if all I'd flown were foreign throw away airplanes.

Airbus 300 - 32 years old

Airbus 320- 18 years old

They might be a little cheaper than a Boeing, but they ain't throw away airplanes.

 

[IFIxUmUBrakeUm]

Airbus is made to throw away thats why they are so cheap--no alclad, likes to rot away, cheaper to park an aircraft then do a d check.

By the way how does this fit in with with Mesaba?? Nwa orders new aircraft to get all recalls back and mesaba gets 70 seaters?? just a thought

 

[Marko Ramius]

If you want to make it patriotic trade argument, OK, otherwise get real

Well, you would probably have a hard time finding a lot of A330 pilots since most airlines aren't crazy enough to actually order them. I can understand you being defensive. I guess I would be upset too if all I'd flown were foreign throw away airplanes.

From the March 2005 issue of ATW magazine:
"Another disquieting trend within the numbers is that Airbus has done well in orders in the last two years in the sector where Boeing says the money is. The A330/A340 family has outsold the 777 two-to-one."

From the August 2004 ATW article:A320 17 years young:
"the airline sees no significant differences in reliability between the oldest A320 and 7,200-cycle whippersnapper A321s.........Indeed, MSN-69 is one of the best aircraft in the fleet."

It's got to be here, Davenport I mean, because you say it's 22 miles, and you're really smart.....yet it's not on the map.

 

[habubuaza]

From the March 2005 issue of ATW magazine:
"Another disquieting trend within the numbers is that Airbus has done well in orders in the last two years in the sector where Boeing says the money is. The A330/A340 family has outsold the 777 two-to-one."

.

Oh, ok. So they stick two totally different types of Airbus airplanes and compare it to one type for Boeing, the 777. Then they say that combined they have outsold the 777 two to one....? OK, yeah sign me up.

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/apr2005/tc20050413_3753_tc024.htm?chan=db

 

[Marko Ramius]

www.boeing.com www.airbus.com

Oh, ok. So they stick two totally different types of Airbus airplanes and compare it to one type for Boeing, the 777. Then they say that combined they have outsold the 777 two to one....? OK, yeah sign me up.

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/apr2005/tc20050413_3753_tc024.htm?chan=db

Again, if you've caught a case of patriotism, cool, but you're really need to shore up facts. A330/A340 family is the competitor to the 777 and by default of both family's product ranges, the older A300 and 767-300ER. They just represent two different manufacturers approach to designing aircraft for the market. The basic -300 models of the A330/340 share the same basic fuselage, and wing/wingbox. The primary difference being that the 340 has larger fuel tanks which are balanced by having two engines per wing vs. one and the center landing gear. This also allows the A330/340 to have a smaller tail relative to the 777 because the the 777 had to be designed for a lot of thrust growth in a two engine situation whereas the heavier a/c in the 330/340 series are the four engine A340 which has fewer moment issues. This coupled with the ability to have lighter basic support structures, is probably why Airbus has been sucessful shrinking the A330 for the -200 model that has been kiling the 767-300/400 is sales and Boeing has elected to go to an all new airframe instead of just shrinking the 777. Sort of the same problem the 737-600 and A318 have vs. the 717 and Emb-190. I guess to be 100% fair, you'd have to include sales of the 767-300/400 along with Boeing 777's data for a more accurate picture, but I don't think Boeing has sold many of them in recent years and Airbus could add their relatively few A300-600(freighters) to the total. Bottom line, it's likely a fifty percent market for Boeing and Airbus who both build good airplanes so just deal with it.

 

[habubuaza]

Again, if you've caught a case of patriotism, cool, but you're really need to shore up facts. A330/A340 family is the competitor to the 777 and by default of both family's product ranges, the older A300 and 767-300ER. They just represent two different manufacturers approach to designing aircraft for the market. The basic -300 models of the A330/340 share the same basic fuselage, and wing/wingbox. The primary difference being that the 340 has larger fuel tanks which are balanced by having two engines per wing vs. one and the center landing gear. This also allows the A330/340 to have a smaller tail relative to the 777 because the the 777 had to be designed for a lot of thrust growth in a two engine situation whereas the heavier a/c in the 330/340 series are the four engine A340 which has fewer moment issues. This coupled with the ability to have lighter basic support structures, is probably why Airbus has been sucessful shrinking the A330 for the -200 model that has been kiling the 767-300/400 is sales and Boeing has elected to go to an all new airframe instead of just shrinking the 777. Sort of the same problem the 737-600 and A318 have vs. the 717 and Emb-190. I guess to be 100% fair, you'd have to include sales of the 767-300/400 along with Boeing 777's data for a more accurate picture, but I don't think Boeing has sold many of them in recent years and Airbus could add their relatively few A300-600(freighters) to the total. Bottom line, it's likely a fifty percent market for Boeing and Airbus who both build good airplanes so just deal with it.

I believe that Airbus advances this argument above. You simply can't compare the two totally different design philosphies. No way, no how. I am sure there are elements in the Airbus A330 that are unique. I have flown with guys that were both on the Airbus and the 737 for example, and sure they say that the airbus has some cool characteristics but as far as overall performance Boeing is superior. I believe that. Did you realize that for international long haul's the A340 has a 50% greater turnback rate that the 777? Now sure you can argue that ETOPS maintenance requirements keep a closer eye on the 777 but the bottom line is dispatch reliability and economics. I have no idea what Airbus is thinking by going to 4 engine long haul frames. Aside from the A320, Airbus is a reactionary aircraft manufacturer. Don't get me wrong the A320 seems to be a cool airplane, but it's all about performance. Yeah I fly a raggedy 737 but have you seen some of the routes that this thing flys? Not to mention Boeing is coming out with an ER version of the 737. It's all about the numbers and being able to perform. I believe that the 777 (the first A/C certified Cat IIIB Autoland with an engine out by the way) stunned them. I believe they really underestimated Boeing. I believe that the 777LR (connecting any two points on the planet) is also making them a little nervous. The 787?...Heck.. they don't know what to do to react to that creation. (And please don't tell me about the A350) The A380 seems to be turning into an abortion, perhaps they will recover from that thing and it may yet prove to be a great airplane but who knows. By the way, the first non accident A320 is currently in the process of being scrapped in Miami. Only 16 years old.