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NWA and DAL MECs dropped...

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J

JAM-BRO

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 4, 2005
Posts
378
IMHO, the NWA and DAL MECs, as well as the respective Negotiation Committees, dropped the ball on this one... Why are they calling this a status and category award? It's a relative seniority award. Are you telling me that we could not come up with this award on our own? Did we need this stupid process? What a crock....

I feel this has been the biggest negative of this whole merger. It cost every one of us involved, a lot of money. We lost a 2% raise in pay, a 2% increase in DC payments and possibly a higher stock award. Plus, add to that the money wasted on a "war chest" required by each side to hire lawyers to deal with the arbitration process.

ALPA leaders on both sides did all of us a disservice. Not pointing fingers but making the point that we could have come up with this on our own.

Oh well, water under the bridge now... I believe we have a stronger carrier now... Let's make it a great place to fly at...
 
I respectfully disagree. I voted against the JPWA and am not a fan of the SLI result, but, think Reps from both sides did an outstanding job at making the best out of a situation management was going to execute with, or without, pilots' participation.

Failing to staple Compass and rationalize Section 1 was a failure. But that wasn't the entire test.

IMHO the MEC's both get A-, at least a 90%.
 
On the point of MEC leadership I think we need an entirely different group leading us into the next contract negotiations in four years. I get a little uncomfortable each time (like today at the conference call) managment thanks individuals from the MEC. There starts to become this brotherly love thing where the new found friend is afraid to say what he is really thinking for fear of offending his new VIP friend who is continually praising him in public. As always we will need people who can negotiate but also get tough and not back down when the time comes. I promise you even if Delta is making 2 billion plus a year in profits it will be a bloody battle when you talk about "restoration" that I know a lot of Delta guys rightfully feel should take place, especially with the loss of the pensions.
 
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~~~^~~~ said:
I respectfully disagree. I voted against the JPWA and am not a fan of the SLI result, but, think Reps from both sides did an outstanding job at making the best out of a situation management was going to execute with, or without, pilots' participation.

Failing to staple Compass and rationalize Section 1 was a failure. But that wasn't the entire test.

IMHO the MEC's both get A-, at least a 90%.
Click to expand...


The company needed scope to be relaxed to do the merger, so pilot participation was needed...
 
I think both the MECs did a great job considering the complexity of the issue. Now it is time to unite and be a formidable power moving forward.
 
I fully agree. ALPA Merger Policy was NOT followed.

This is what annoys me about ALPA. They say one thing while talking out the side of their mouth about something else.
 
whymeworry? said:
I fully agree. ALPA Merger Policy was NOT followed.

This is what annoys me about ALPA. They say one thing while talking out the side of their mouth about something else.
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Okay........ALPA Merger Policy was not followed.

Call Steve Bradford and Lee Seeham, They will be happy to have all malcontents petition the NMB for representation by USAPA.

When you lose all other benefits that ALPA offers, you can have your day in court sueing and countersueing and be represented by a dysfuctional group of individuals who have all the answers. But when the judge sees through all the BS, you'll find that throwing your ALPA representation off the island is not in your best interest.

I'm just stating facts as they have been presented to the US/AWA merger.........not a pretty sight, but make your own assessment of the situation, and go from there.

Captairbusbb
 
whymeworry? said:
I fully agree. ALPA Merger Policy was NOT followed.

This is what annoys me about ALPA. They say one thing while talking out the side of their mouth about something else.
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Judging from your stats, you're a DAL guy...in what way do you think that ALPA policy was not followed?

Nu
 
I have some friends hired at DAL in '07 before merger announcement, one of them just prior. Where do they stand on this list?
 
~~~^~~~ said:
I respectfully disagree. I voted against the JPWA and am not a fan of the SLI result, but, think Reps from both sides did an outstanding job at making the best out of a situation management was going to execute with, or without, pilots' participation.

Failing to staple Compass and rationalize Section 1 was a failure. But that wasn't the entire test.

IMHO the MEC's both get A-, at least a 90%.
Click to expand...

I guess you must fly narrow body for DAL. As a junior guy if you happen to be flying a widebody our days are counted. The moment they move, let's say 15 7er from ATL to a different base, it becomes an open bid and chances are 10 year guys at NWA who had no chance of flying a widebody at NWA before, they will jump all over them. My union should've had this foresight and not settle for anything else than 5 year fences.

I give NWA union A+ they got a much better contract for their pilot group than our union got for us, and they still have their frozen pension, which DAL is paying for, contributing to it. As far as seniority is concerned, NWA can hold much better equipment with this new list. I don't think a 98 NWA hire could be mid way up the list in a widebody before at NWA, guess what, he is now.

DAL union failed miserably the DAL pilots. Yes great we get equity in the company, but we have no say in how it's distributed, or when, or how. We got a much lower payraise that NWA did in the contract, and they failed to protect the bottom 30% of the list. Let's just hope Lee steps aside, and the NWA MEC brings the new DAL where it belongs.
 
DAL prior to merged list = 91.0 %
DAL/NWA = 90.7 %

-Company most likely moving my category out of SLC, and agreement failed to fence the other two categories in base. I am not excited about the outcome of relative seniority with a company that was on its way to furlough prior to merger announcement, but very pleased that until next fall any furloughs that originate from parking DC-'s will come from NWA side, and that is all I can ask for given the focus of the arbitrators obviously was to protect the senior pilots on the Northwest's list.

If you were on the bottome 15-30% of the DAL list and are in an Int. Category you just lost your QOL, Thanks Lee.

All in all I think the award is what it is and I am very happy this is over, now lets buy another company with furloughs on the way and start all this bs over again, hopefully our leadership can sort out a simple list by themselves this time and leave the pull and plug artists to plug themselves!

JP
 
jetjockey#1 said:
I guess you must fly narrow body for DAL. As a junior guy if you happen to be flying a widebody our days are counted. The moment they move, let's say 15 7er from ATL to a different base, it becomes an open bid and chances are 10 year guys at NWA who had no chance of flying a widebody at NWA before, they will jump all over them. My union should've had this foresight and not settle for anything else than 5 year fences.

I give NWA union A+ they got a much better contract for their pilot group than our union got for us, and they still have their frozen pension, which DAL is paying for, contributing to it. As far as seniority is concerned, NWA can hold much better equipment with this new list. I don't think a 98 NWA hire could be mid way up the list in a widebody before at NWA, guess what, he is now.

DAL union failed miserably the DAL pilots. Yes great we get equity in the company, but we have no say in how it's distributed, or when, or how. We got a much lower payraise that NWA did in the contract, and they failed to protect the bottom 30% of the list. Let's just hope Lee steps aside, and the NWA MEC brings the new DAL where it belongs.
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You have to admit that the junior guys are pretty fortunate to be on the ER as a new hire in the first place. Even without the merger, there are plenty of senior guys that could bid over to the ER and you would lose that QOL. I agree that there should have been more fences though.
 
JOPILOT said:
-Company most likely moving my category out of SLC, and agreement failed to fence the other two categories in base. I am not excited about the outcome of relative seniority with a company that was on its way to furlough prior to merger announcement, but very pleased that until next fall any furloughs that originate from parking DC-'s will come from NWA side, and that is all I can ask for given the focus of the arbitrators obviously was to protect the senior pilots on the Northwest's list.

If you were on the bottome 15-30% of the DAL list and are in an Int. Category you just lost your QOL, Thanks Lee.

All in all I think the award is what it is and I am very happy this is over, now lets buy another company with furloughs on the way and start all this bs over again, hopefully our leadership can sort out a simple list by themselves this time and leave the pull and plug artists to plug themselves!

JP
Click to expand...

You are proving that you have very little insight on Northwest Airlines. Some of you paint NWA as a dieing airline when in fact we made as much if not more money even though we were a smaller airline. Also we were hiring up to the merger announcement not about to furlough :rolleyes:

there is no need to pull the drama queen stuff, its over and time to move on. Cheers :beer:
 
Super, fact is that many of the guys I know there that are mid level commute and are drooling over an international aircraft no matter where it is base.
The way I see it, it is fine, most of us new guys are getting to do something that we KNEW we should not see for 10+ years, now that is a reality. Stinks, but now that your original DAL brethren saw that their was enough reserve fodder below them they were finally bidding up. One way or another your QOL was going to go in the toilet on the ER.
This way you WILL get it back sooner.
I am ready for whatever is thrown our way. It is what it is, and it is done. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. I much rather be here than any other US domestic airline.
Five years from now you will be on a seniority freight train that will not stop for the rest of your career's here. Just have a little patience. Instant gratification is great, but when you whine about not keeping it, you sound spoiled. Be happy you have a paycheck.

PS this does not apply to the dead zoners that will be bumped from heir wide body chairs.
 
ACL65PILOT said:
The way I see it, it is fine, most of us new guys are getting to do something that we KNEW we should not see for 10+ years, now that is a reality.
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I do not see how you can look at what you hold today and say that is not a reality. To me it is much more surprising that a group of pilots will go from $68 to $105 overnight and be able to take your job.

Status quo is your ability to continue to fly, what you fly, in the same relative position & pay. This award fails that test. The fact that the MAJORITY of this airline is out of position for what their seniority will hold at SOC is a clear indication of that fact. At its core, this decision fails to abide by ALPA merger policy ( and of course it does not have to ).

There was a huge demographic difference between DAL and NWA new hires. NWA was not worth leaving a regional for unless you were very young and very mobile.

The Delta MEC took the high road. It cost the Delta pilots, but made the overall Company stronger while preserving the union. ALPA did a fine job, Delta is a great Company, but no longer a first choice at a DC9B slot.

Fred Ex is getting 757's.
 
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jetjockey#1 said:
DAL union failed miserably the DAL pilots.
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Jet I hear you, but you are equating effort with results. The Delta MEC took the high road and lost by virtue of the arbitration panel "splitting the Baby up the middle."

The Delta MEC was not wrong to try to accomplish the SLI with integrity.

Your frustration is understandable, very much so.
 
To me it is much more surprising that a group of pilots will go from $68 to $105 overnight and be able to take your job.
Click to expand...
I must be missing something....I'm looking at the new contract rates and I can't see who you are referring to....even without the "able to take your job" comment.
 
Longevity and equipment bump, or just ask your FO, they should be able to explain it once you unscrew them from the ceiling.
 
~~~^~~~ said:
Wrong, wrong, wrong. I do not see how you can look at what you hold today and say that is not a reality. To me it is much more surprising that a group of pilots will go from $68 to $105 overnight and be able to take your job.

Status quo is your ability to continue to fly, what you fly, in the same relative position & pay. This award completely fails that test. The fact that the MAJORITY of this airline is out of position for what their seniority will hold at SOC is a clear indication of that fact. At its core, this decision fails to abide by ALPA merger policy ( and of course it does not have to ).

We have different theories on how the Company will adjust to such a large rush to the schoolhouse if airplanes are moved.

There was a huge demographic difference between DAL and NWA new hires. NWA was not worth leaving a regional for unless you were very young and very mobile. Frankly for many Delta new hires, there are better opportunities elsewhere - they would be well advised to see what their experience an education can get them with other career opportunities.

The Delta MEC took the high road. It cost the Delta pilots, but made the overall Company stronger while preserving the union. ALPA did a fine job, Delta is a great Company, but no longer a first choice at a DC9B or A320 slot.

FedEx is getting 757's.
Click to expand...

Heyas Fins,

The arbitrators sought a balance between NWA's older group with more attrition (which they accepted as fact) versus DAL's relatively younger group that had been displaced upward some years back.

With this situation, they could award an unlimited amount of attrition via a dynamic list or they could have front loaded the award with what seemed to them as a reasonable number. They chose the later.

They were, in essence, saying "hey NWA guys...you have a bunch of older pilots that will be gone in 5-10 years, so here's your chance to run with what we give you. DAL guys, it doesn't matter for you,
'cause you're younger and will be around longer". That's why there were no fences around the mid-sized widbodies.

Obviously some people get lost in the demographics. NWA has some older guys, that despite the slight upward shift, will never see the WB left seat they would have had pre-merger. And from what you're saying, you guys take the same kind of hit with a different section of the list.

You could do what ACL suggests, and wait it out if you have the time. But it is ridiculous to think of the 320 as a slave barge, and DTW is not a terrible place to commute to, or fly out of (no delays, good, inexpensive commuter hotels, etc).

It is what it is.

Nu
 
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Specifically, your furloughed pilots who got their longevity back (which I think they deserved) and now will be able to bid into widebody international flying.

Again, I don't begrudge them anything - good for them.
 
~~~^~~~ said:
Specifically, your furloughed pilots who got their longevity back (which I think they deserved) and now will be able to bid into widebody international flying.

Again, I don't begrudge them anything - good for them.
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OK....now I'm with you.....I wasn't thinking of that situation. But I'm not sure I agree that NW guys in that group will be able to hold widebody Intl after SOC. How can you convince me of that?
 
NWA put out a good list that shows you what the pilots around you are holding. The pilots I'm referring to are middle lower in the pack of Delta 767 pilots.

Delta new hires hold the 767ER, some hold block with weekends off to Western Europe. Why do you think your pilots could not beat them in the bidding when the airplanes get moved around?

Delta pilots also tended to be folks who lived in Delta bases. Folks like me will do anything possible not to commute and with a side job that pays more than flying, commuting just is not an option. When these airplanes get moved around we anticipate the Delta pilots will try to stay in base, while the NWA pilots (who are more likely to be commuting anyway) will be more likely to chase the big airplanes. At least that is the theory that makes the most sense.

We will see once bidding actually starts.
 
~~~^~~~ said:
Specifically, your furloughed pilots who got their longevity back (which I think they deserved) and now will be able to bid into widebody international flying.

Again, I don't begrudge them anything - good for them.
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Well this furloughed guy spent close to 6 years benched while many of the Delta 2007 hire are now senior to me (Who started their airline careers during the 2001 furloughs). I lost close to 700 numbers. Ask the first Delta guy hired in 2007 if he made out ok. He jumped ahead of 2000 NWA hires. I was to hold WB captain for years w/o the merger........I bet the best I will hold now will be 757 captain. I think the list sucks donkey balls. From my perspective guys in the bottom 9% of NWA got screwed. ( Can you hear the violin playing;)) Its over though. There is not a dam thing I can do about it.

So what I'm getting at is it sucks for a lot of us. Delta and NWA ppl...........some guys it worked out ok. It just depends on where you are on the list. This is what we want though......and now we can together make this a better place for all of us.

As far a bidding widebody.....some will do this but I think you may be surprized. There is a reason why your W/B flying is so junior.

K-Roll
 
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You know what, I've tried articulate a point about three times now and have had to come back an delete it all due to the rambling. So... Suffice it to say...

Good luck to all of us.... the screwed (on both sides), the lucky (on both sides), and the largely indifferent (on both sides). My sixth sense says we're going to have far more important things than career expectations, relative seniority, and date of hire to worry about sooner than we would like. Here's hoping that we can all move forward like the professionals that we are from here on out.

Looking forward to working with all you pre-merger DAL guys (even General Lee, who I strongly suspect is the Delta pilot who is rumored to live up the street from me.... Bar's open at the brick Cape Cod with the white picket fence any time, dude...)

From here on out our failure to work together only puts us in peril, ladies and gents. Enough said.
 
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FmrFreightDog said:
You know what, I've tried articulate a point about three times now and have had to come back an delete it all due to the rambling. So... Suffice it to say...

Good luck to all of us.... the screwed (on both sides), the lucky (on both sides), and the largely indifferent (on both sides). My sixth sense says we're going to have far more important things than career expectations, relative seniority, and date of hire to worry about sooner than we would like. Here's hoping that we can all move forward like the professionals that we are from here on out.

Looking forward to working with all you pre-merger DAL guys (even General Lee, who I strongly suspect is the Delta pilot who is rumored to live up the street from me.... Bar's open at the brick Cape Cod with the white picket fence any time, dude...)

From here on out our failure to work together only puts us in peril, ladies and gents. Enough said.
Click to expand...

Hey, we are on the same side now, and I look forward to working with you guys too. Do you live in North ATL?

Bye Bye---General Lee
 

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