Nwa Amfa Hangs Alone, You Are Next

[psycho]

Question for the pilot group with all due respect
You folks have 12% on furlough with recall rights and have taken a pay cut. No pilot at NWA is making less than 120 k. Most are making more.
AMFA has lost 48% to termination since 9/11 ( No recall ) Now NWA wants to terminate 50% of the survivors in AMFA and give the rest a 26% pay cut. These folks take care of your airplanes and make 50 to 90 k tops, allowing them to live in a decent blue collar neighborhood.
Now comes NWA MEC " We have taken cuts, it is selfish of the AMFA to draw the line "
When NWA wants to ELIMINATE 75% of all pilot jobs and give the rest of you a 26% pay cut, will you take the stance that ALPA is being unreasonable??
Next will come AFAA, then IAM, then ALPA.
NWA MEC does have the right to sympathy strike, will that happen??

 

[cathal]

What concessionary proposal by NWA could possibly pass when more than 50% of the membership will lose their jobs as a result? None. All AMFA is ensuring at this point is that they lose 100% of the jobs instead of the 75%, and thus screwing the most senior members out of their jobs that they would keep without the union.

 

[General Lee]

That's true. They wanted to fire 53% of the mechanics. Bring that to a vote, and I bet at least 53% would vote it down. Then, minutes before the strike, NW gives them another offer--which was worse. They wanted a strike over there. And, their plans submitted for possible pilot concessions wasn't great either. The ace in their pocket is the pension plan, and the senior pilots would probably do anything to keep it. Scary times.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[psycho]

What concessionary proposal by NWA could possibly pass when more than 50% of the membership will lose their jobs as a result? None. All AMFA is ensuring at this point is that they lose 100% of the jobs instead of the 75%, and thus screwing the most senior members out of their jobs that they would keep without the union.

Catheter,

You are so right!! If I were in a concentration camp with 99 other people, and the Germans said I could survive as long as I voted to eliminate 75% of the remaining lives, I would say " You guys are so cool, I look forward to a long and happy relationship with you'

 

[klhoard]

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Has anyone gotten a read from the scabs whether they're being told they are permanent? Are they moving their families?
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[gutshotdraw]

Psycho,

No pilot is making less than 120K? Are you smoking crack? I wish my better half was making that much. I could retire.

NWA Pilots took a 15% beating December 1st and will take another pay cut when the company gets around to them again. Many of the job cuts would have been aircraft cleaners not wrenches and many of those cleaners make $50K for a pretty basic job. Bottom line: AMFA would rather tube the entire airline than face the reality of 21st century airline economics. NWA ALPA members saw what happened the last time pilots honored a mechanic strike line: LIQUIDATION.

NWA management's plan is, has been, and always will be to break the most militant union on their property. Operations are running relatively smoothly and will improve as more PERMANENT REPLACEMENTS are recruited and trained. Management won and now the remaining unions in MSP have to figure out how to work with the company to mitigate the damage.

Sad, perhaps but true nonetheless.

 

[FN FAL]

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Has anyone gotten a read from the scabs whether they're being told they are permanent? Are they moving their families?
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Wouldn't a "lockout" have to occur before scabs could be given permanant positions?

 

[FN FAL]

Psycho,

No pilot is making less than 120K? Are you smoking crack? I wish my better half was making that much. I could retire.

NWA Pilots took a 15% beating December 1st and will take another pay cut when the company gets around to them again. Many of the job cuts would have been aircraft cleaners not wrenches and many of those cleaners make $50K for a pretty basic job. Bottom line: AMFA would rather tube the entire airline than face the reality of 21st century airline economics. NWA ALPA members saw what happened the last time pilots honored a mechanic strike line: LIQUIDATION.

NWA management's plan is, has been, and always will be to break the most militant union on their property. Operations are running relatively smoothly and will improve as more PERMANENT REPLACEMENTS are recruited and trained. Management won and now the remaining unions in MSP have to figure out how to work with the company to mitigate the damage.

Sad, perhaps but true nonetheless.

Maybe they could get that "lake woebegone" guy Garrison Keillor, to come and do televison advertising promo spots for NWA like he did for International Paper when they were union busting back in the late '80s.

 

[Jim]

I'm obviously not a NWA pilot but here's the way I see it from looking from the outside...

ALPA studied the airline's financial situation and agreed to concessions as necessary. Further, they informed the rest of the unions of the results of this study and told them that concessions were indeed needed from all. For months, ALPA has asked the other unions to join in to preserve ALL their jobs. The other unions, especially the AMFA gave both NWA management and ALPA the big f' you.

Now AMFA says ALPA, even though we gave you the finger and total blew off your financial study and advice, we want you to support us and sympathy strike. Oh yeah, sorry about that thing back in 1998.....

So because no other union has helped, NWA is going to come at the pilots for even more concessions. NWA ALPA realizes that NWA's financials are only going to get worst if the airline is shut down by a strike or if the other unions do not give concessions. As a labor union, they can not actively support management yet they can not actively oppose management because it will only cost the pilots more in the long run. NWA goes into bankruptcy if AMFA's strike shuts down the airline or NWA goes into bankruptcy if the other unions do not provide concessions. It's a no win situation for NWA ALPA so they are effectively remaining neutral.

Yes, I realize that concessions always suck, that too many airline managements depend on concessions to cover their financial blunders and that NWA shot down a lot of ticket price increases that could have reduced the amount of the concessions needed. But that's now history that can not be changed. NWA ALPA's job is to trying to preserve its pilots jobs, work rules, retirement, etc. Why should they give up more because another labor group has buried its head in the sand and refused to accept reality?

Sometimes doing what is right scews the junior guys. The pilots at Hawaiian took 2 rounds of concessions. I voted for the first even though I knew it would guarantee my furlough. While I did not get to vote for the second, I told many guys over and over that preserving our work rules and retirement were more important than getting me recalled sooner. The second round of concessions did that - protected these things by changing the staffing formula to require more work from active pilots and slowing potential recalls. I've been furloughed for close to 3 years with no end in sight. I have a good idea of the choice the junior AMFA guys are facing.

If the pilots honor the AMFA picket line or sympathy strikes, NWA will go into bankruptcy. Then every labor group will pay a much steeper price in the form of greater job losses and larger concessions.

Is NWA ALPA's position right or wrong? That's for the NWA ALPA membership to decide.

 

[vc10]

That which NWA gets from AMFA is that much less it needs to get from ALPA...

Question for the pilot group with all due respect
You folks have 12% on furlough with recall rights and have taken a pay cut. No pilot at NWA is making less than 120 k. Most are making more.
AMFA has lost 48% to termination since 9/11 ( No recall ) Now NWA wants to terminate 50% of the survivors in AMFA and give the rest a 26% pay cut. These folks take care of your airplanes and make 50 to 90 k tops, allowing them to live in a decent blue collar neighborhood.
Now comes NWA MEC " We have taken cuts, it is selfish of the AMFA to draw the line "
When NWA wants to ELIMINATE 75% of all pilot jobs and give the rest of you a 26% pay cut, will you take the stance that ALPA is being unreasonable??
Next will come AFAA, then IAM, then ALPA.
NWA MEC does have the right to sympathy strike, will that happen??

 

[castle bravo]

...too many airline managements depend on concessions to cover their financial blunders and that NWA shot down a lot of ticket price increases that could have reduced the amount of the concessions needed.






Not to mention NWA management's masterful strategy at fuel hedging. The $100 ticket vouchers for pax to ride on Champion Air was another real reveune generator. Way to go, NWA management- keep up the good work. And, don't forget to give yourself a well deserved cash bonus while you're at it- you earned it.

 

[AMRCostUnit]

...too many airline managements depend on concessions to cover their financial blunders and that NWA shot down a lot of ticket price increases that could have reduced the amount of the concessions needed.






Not to mention NWA management's masterful strategy at fuel hedging. The $100 ticket vouchers for pax to ride on Champion Air was another real reveune generator. Way to go, NWA management- keep up the good work. And, don't forget to give yourself a well deserved cash bonus while you're at it- you earned it.

...plus how much was spent training replacements? $107 milllion I believe the number is. Pay close attention to what is going on and reread the title of this thread over and over...

Unit

 

[CatfishVT9]

Catheter,

You are so right!! If I were in a concentration camp with 99 other people, and the Germans said I could survive as long as I voted to eliminate 75% of the remaining lives, I would say " You guys are so cool, I look forward to a long and happy relationship with you'

You must be a French coward. Sorry I know that's redundant.

 

[michael707767]

...too many airline managements depend on concessions to cover their financial blunders and that NWA shot down a lot of ticket price increases that could have reduced the amount of the concessions needed.

I forgot about that. How many times was NWA the one who shot down a fare increase? They have made huge blunders over there and now labor is paying for it.

 

[mnboyev]

Pretty sad days.... NWA shouldnt have messed up that CAL buyout a few years back.... too bad...

AMFA's gonna take it on the chops... Hang in there fellas !!

 

[dbrownie]

I forgot about that. How many times was NWA the one who shot down a fare increase? They have made huge blunders over there and now labor is paying for it.

Mgt's "last man standing" strategy was no doubt a "loser move".

They kept teling us that they couldn't raise fares but yet have done it 4 times this year. Too little too late.

They do expect labor to pay for their blunders.

Dave B

 

[AA717driver]

If what you all are saying is true (I'm not disputing that) then the NWA pilots should give themselves a 1.98% raise by dumping ALPA.

The course they "must" take removes the entire reason for having a union. Already you have huge backlogs of grievances (Who initially benefits from a CBA violation? The company of course.). Now, you have the union admitting more concessions are coming--and they can't do a thing to stop it.

Give me a reason for ALPA to be on the property anywhere. TC

 

[h25b]

If what you all are saying is true (I'm not disputing that) then the NWA pilots should give themselves a 1.98% raise by dumping ALPA.

The course they "must" take removes the entire reason for having a union. Already you have huge backlogs of grievances (Who initially benefits from a CBA violation? The company of course.). Now, you have the union admitting more concessions are coming--and they can't do a thing to stop it.

Give me a reason for ALPA to be on the property anywhere. TC

I love fellow "de-programmed" former union members... A couple years surviving the corporate side will do that for you..

 

[ExAF]

Check Your Facts

Question for the pilot group with all due respect
You folks have 12% on furlough with recall rights and have taken a pay cut. No pilot at NWA is making less than 120 k. Most are making more.

WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING? There are A LOT of pilots at NWA that don't make 120K. Mabe most captains make more but not the FOs. They've already taken a 15% cut and the initial start from the company for round 2 is another 35% and 1800 more furloughs. That's before they rape the work rules.

Jim: Your post is right on the money.

 

[TonyC]

Wouldn't a "lockout" have to occur before scabs could be given permanant positions?

Isn't that effectively what occurred when NWA started sending mechanics home early Friday evening?




.

 

[Redmeat]

Isn't that effectively what occurred when NWA started sending mechanics home early Friday evening?




.

Actually, no. Any AMFA mechanic can return to work at this very moment if that person agrees to NWA management terms, which are even worse than the so called "final best offer". Of course none have nor probably will.

 

[73belair]

For F'ing sake! Raise the ticket price according to the fuel price!! Thats IT. We won't have to fire people left and right. Why does NWA continue to buck eveyone else when they try to raise the price? And why do the others give up to NWA?

 

[canyonblue]

And why do the others give up to NWA?

The $1,000,000 question.

 

[Ace McCoy]

They've already taken a 15% cut

Don't forget that 15% was after a 10% raise. About the only raise anyone got after 9/11

 

[Tim47SIP]

LCC structurees

For F'ing sake! Raise the ticket price according to the fuel price!! Thats IT. We won't have to fire people left and right. Why does NWA continue to buck eveyone else when they try to raise the price? And why do the others give up to NWA?


It's called COMPETITION! As long as SWA is fuel hedged at their very low rates, they set the ticket prices. Jet Blue is still young and its cost structure reflects that. The rest of the legacy carriers have to keep their ticket prices in check with the competition or they lose even more than they are now. I would think that SWA could raise prices and still be the lowest price out there. It would be pure profit. Airline economics, its pure voodo!

 

[flint4xx]

It's called COMPETITION! As long as SWA is fuel hedged at their very low rates, they set the ticket prices.

I agree about competition, but SW doesn't compete with NW on most of its routes, so I think blaming SW is a little bit unfair.

For F'ing sake! Raise the ticket price according to the fuel price!! Thats IT. We won't have to fire people left and right. Why does NWA continue to buck eveyone else when they try to raise the price? And why do the others give up to NWA?

You need to study airline economics 101. This isn't a new idea. If you raise the the price too much, people stop flying on your airline. The delicate balance between filling seats and making money on them is what this is all about. Fill the seats and make no money or don't fill the seats...either one is bad for business. The bean counters have made a science out of this. They monitor trends in bookings and the second a price increase is announced, the bookings fall off as tickets are bought on the competition. aka "free market economy".

 

[canyonblue]

I would think that SWA could raise prices and still be the lowest price out there. It would be pure profit.

The problem with fares is not that they are competing with Southwest, it's that they are competing with the other Legacy morons that are engaged in economic suicide. The last great game of chicken to see who can knock who off the mountain. Our ticket prices are set so that we MAKE a profit, unfortunately the egos that be are trying to out do each other. Until every airline raises their fares to a level that ensures profitability, this trend will continue. If that price is $40 more than Southwest so be it, someone will just have to start sucking it up and realizing that with our productivity and fuel hedges, we have a clear advantage.

 

[Dizel8]

NWA management is playing this one "beatifully". First, sign a deal with the group that has the most to lose and is the hardest to replace. Then take on the smallest union, who has little support from the rest and no support from the IAM due to politics . To further show resolve, start showing the F/A's, that replacement workers are being trained. It is quite the plan indeed, apparently being condoned by the White House, since NWA asked that a PEB should not be invoked.

The biggest loser here, besides the AMFA members, will be the F/A's, because NWA will soon make some serious demands on them. It is therefore very sad, that the F/A's has chosen not to support AMFA!

 

[ExAF]

Your Point?

Don't forget that 15% was after a 10% raise. About the only raise anyone got after 9/11

Ace...your point is.....? That 10% was to buy time for both sides. If you want to bring in past raises, look and see what the raises were in the last AMFA contract (hint: way more than 10%). Both are water under the bridge and neither have any bearing on what is going on now. I happen to support the AMFA folks. Many of them are my neighbors and friends. I wasn't trying to fan the flames, I was just pointing out some erroneous facts presented in the initial post in the thread regarding what the pilots make at NWA. I think there is already enough misinformation flying around without posting numbers pulled out of somone's rectum as facts.

 

[Ace McCoy]

I think there is already enough misinformation flying around without posting numbers pulled out of somone's rectum as facts.

What numbers are wrong? 10% raise in Sept 2002...15% cut last year. And that means NWA pilots have taken the smallest pay cut of any legacy carrier since 9/11.

I think the misleading number is the 15% cut when you don't mention the 10% raise a couple of years before.