NTSB Recommends Changes In Crew Sched., Comm Proced.

[flyzimex]

The one bad thing I've heard about this is that they want to count your commuting time as part of your duty time.

Well, I'm no commuter and probably I'm stupid, but why is that bad??

FZ

 

[§kyye Candy]

The one bad thing I've heard about this is that they want to count your commuting time as part of your duty time.

Sounds good to me - now all they need is a clause saying that you can't require duty time w/o paying for it, because sure as he!! nobody can afford to relocate based on 1) income and 2) the fact that some companies seem to change domiciles almost weekly.

 

[PCL_128]

An NTSB suggestion and $1 won't even buy you a cup of coffee anymore.

That's the real problem. The NTSB has become worthless. The FAA and the airlines completely ignore their recommendations. The government needs to fix the system. Time to get rid of NTSB recommendations and change them to NTSB decrees.

 

[PCL_128]

How is everyone going to feel when a 12 hour duty day results in more days at work and fewer days off?

We have a max 12-hour duty day at AirTran, and our average line is about 15-16 days off with some exceeding 19 days off. I'm guessing that's better than what most of your pilots get, Joey. In fact, I'm not guessing, because I hear your pilots b!tching in the hotel vans all the time about their 12 days off.

Any mention of pilot experience?

The Captain was highly experienced and a very good checkairman. The FO was new and was receiving IOE. I don't know what his experience prior to Pinnacle was, but since Pinnacle is such a festering hell hole, they can't exactly attract the highest levels of experience for new FOs. Not really a factor, though, as the CA was flying and making the decisions. The problem here wasn't experience, the problem was fatigue and pilot pushing. Two of the hallmarks of Pinnacle's bulls---.

 

[PCL_128]

U bet! You know what I hope happens to Mr.RJDC (joe)? I hope he walks into his trailer really depressed about his girl leaving him for Mr.VPofsomething. He walks over to the cabinet to get a drink of scotch only to find his dogs head staring blankly back at him. He screeches like the little he biotch that he is and goes stumbling backwards onto the floor. Just then out of the corner of his eye he spots the pedophile living next door running naked at him from the waist down. Now folks, this is no ordinary pedophile this is a big redneck one. Hands the size of baby dolphins. Joe tries to scramble away only to get his fat head stomped on repeatedly until he blacks out. Finally Joe starts to come about several hours later with an extreme headache, vision blurred and very parched. He tries to move but realizes that he is tied up in the woods and his feet are missing!!!!

That was just a work of art. :beer:

 

[BigMeat]

That was just a work of art. :beer:

Thanks PCL and Skyye Candy for the kind words

 

[CA1900]

That was just a work of art. :beer:

Yes, it was! :laugh:

BigMeat, we have to get together for beer and paintball again one of these days! :beer:

 

[Poahi]

... need is a clause saying that you can't require duty time w/o paying for it,

Then everyone would be commuting from the farthest point they can think of (or certainly the cheapest). It's a slippery slope.

Why not also include yard work, work in another profession, diaper changing, or anything else that requires you to be seated and awake.

What you do on your time off is your business. Getting to work rested has always been the pilot's responsibility.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

I bet it is the 60+ guys that are complaining they need more rest! More time is needed to spend counting their money.

 

[Aviation Geek]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/14/60minutes/main3939721.shtml

This "60 Minutes" story on sleep was very interesting. It's only like 20 minutes but well worth the watch if you are interested in the direction sleep study is going.

The reality is the only reason schedules are built the way they are is to save the company money. Your health, their money. The corporation has just one responsibility: MAKE MONEY. Until rest costs them a significant amount of money; workers take control and say "enough is enough;" or regulators grow some and say "this has to end" it will not change.

 

[XJ-spartacus]

I personally like how the NTSB is vague about the fatigue issue, but recommends better response time by rescue personel to accidents caused by fatigue issues. Typical government response. Don't prevent the crash, just get better at putting out the fire. Classic.....

-Spartacus

 

[Soverytired]

Who knows? Maybe they're deliberately being vague to try and effect ANY change, however small.

It seems that reams of data and incontrovertible evidence isn't translating to much needed (and costly) duty time regulatory changes. And this after at least a decade of the NTSB trying.

Baby steps, perhaps?

 

[Draginass]

NTSB Recommends.

FAA Ignores.

Airlines conduct business as usual.

Who thinks that this cycle is going to change anytime soon? Nothing, NOTHING will change until there is blood and body parts strewn all over the streets and it's the lead story on CNN and FOX.

And the company managers will say "But it's up to the individual pilot to determine if he's fatigued or not. It's not our fault!!"

 

[BigMeat]

NTSB Recommends.

FAA Ignores.

Airlines conduct business as usual.

Who thinks that this cycle is going to change anytime soon? Nothing, NOTHING will change until there is blood and body parts strewn all over the streets and it's the lead story on CNN and FOX.

And the company managers will say "But it's up to the individual pilot to determine if he's fatigued or not. It's not our fault!!"

Draginass I wish that were the case. Even if this happens they will blame the pilot and sweep it under the rug. I do think it would be a good time for all the union to get together and have a propaganda machine running full bore to inform and scare the public. The faa already has a black eye. Perfect timing.

 

[BigMeat]

Yes, it was! :laugh:

BigMeat, we have to get together for beer and paintball again one of these days! :beer:

Sounds like a plan! Remember getting cornered by 10 guys when your the last person standing and you know its going to be a world of hurt!? I never gave up...I fought to the end!

 

[Soverytired]

Draginass I wish that were the case. Even if this happens they will blame the pilot and sweep it under the rug. I do think it would be a good time for all the union to get together and have a propaganda machine running full bore to inform and scare the public. The faa already has a black eye. Perfect timing.

Hell, even PILOTS blame the pilots.

While the NTSB specifically cited the recent Mesa/Go! Hawaiian overflight as a further example as to why these rules MUST be revisited, on this very board it turned mostly into an open season on deriding Mesa pilots.

"We must hang together, or we will all certainly hang separately", eh?

 

[regionaltard]

Sounds like a plan! Remember getting cornered by 10 guys when your the last person standing and you know its going to be a world of hurt!? I never gave up...I fought to the end!

All you can do at that point is pick one to punish mercilessly.

 

[waveflyer]

Hell, even PILOTS blame the pilots.

While the NTSB specifically cited the recent Mesa/Go! Hawaiian overflight as a further example as to why these rules MUST be revisited, on this very board it turned mostly into an open season on deriding Mesa pilots.

"We must hang together, or we will all certainly hang separately", eh?

great point!
at some point we have to ask why we put up w/ it? Why are we ALL so willing to gut it out? Tradition?
I'll tell you what though-- you'll never have an argument as long as it's legal for a turboprop to fly 20% more than a jet-- all while being much much harder to build hours w/ all the short hops. I won't even get started on rest rules for 135 unsched's.

 

[§kyye Candy]

Then everyone would be commuting from the farthest point they can think of (or certainly the cheapest). It's a slippery slope.

So make it part of the schedule. Everything is a slippery slope. If we let that be the reason to deny changes then nothing will ever get accomplished.

Why not also include yard work, work in another profession, diaper changing, or anything else that requires you to be seated and awake.

Because that has nothing to do with working, getting to work, etc.

What you do on your time off is your business. Getting to work rested has always been the pilot's responsibility.

There are a lot of things that are different now than they were back in the day. Twenty years ago you didn't have to worry about catching an open flight. Most flights had plenty of seats. And your domicile didn't move constantly, as with some of the smaller regional airlines, where they don't compensate you for moving expenses until you've been there for 20 years (nevermind the fact that 98% of their pilots only stay 2-5 years.)

You may change your mind when you're flying a widebody and your "commute" takes you trans-oceanic, or your domicile is moved 5 times in 3 years and your pregnant wife has to pack up your house and the 2 kids and move by herself each time because your "extra" time is consumed with your commute.

Package it however you like, but there need to be a few checks and balances to compensate for the abuse going on - especially now that half of the perks, including the jumpseat, have been either minimized or taken away altogether.

 

[Max Powers]

How is everyone going to feel when a 12 hour duty day results in more days at work and fewer days off?

Be careful what you wish for....

Any mention of pilot experience? We will probably get some more "recipe flying" out of this.....while the biggest problem - experience....is ignored.....

Max duty day at AirTran is 12 hours and I usually get 17 days off a month with 87 hours credit.....Not too bad