NTSB recommendation on failed checkrides

[NuGuy]

NuGuy...
One of the effects of changing CFI pay is that less students would get trained.

We dispute this. Like I said, you will lose the very bottom, penny pinching dudes.

I've had students like this. I was making $18/hr (this was in 1989, fer Christ's sake). The school took $5, and I pocketed the rest. So cheapo, who was replete with the garb of the breed (5 year old vette, open shirt, gold chains, and the remnants of his dyed hair slicked back), wants me to snake the school by paying me $15 under the table.

Since the owner of the school was a personal friend, I told him that wasn't right, and prompty dismissed him as a student. I say good riddance. He can go back to peddling used I-ROC Z-28s at the used car lot.

If ANYTHING the real wage of the CFI has dropped considerably in the past 15 years. Dudes were making $15/20 and hour in 1990. I checked the calendar, and sheeite, it's 2005. Just to keep up with the CPI, they should be making $28/hr.

Of course, in a way, the US has already outsourced CFI labor...with students comming from overseas and then working for a pittance in order to "work" as a CFI here in the states before splitting for home.

I did not say it was the same. There is a Fund in the US that funds all of the services we enjoy. The name escapes me at the moment, but i'm sure you know what i'm talking about. Every aviation tax gets paid into this fund and this fund pays for all the bills. Granted, airlines are the biggest contributers, but GA also pays its fair share.

Another half truth. The Aviation Trust Fund is indeed paid out of fuel taxes, the VAST majority of which already comes from the sale of jet fuel. Last I checked, this wasn't particulary sensitive the the rates CFI's get paid.

The balance of funding comes from other sources...state, county and municiple budgets.

The only way to meet CFI demand is to pay CFI's the same as airliners do... AND THAT will result in the situation i've been describing in the last posts.

Ahaha, ahaha hahahhah....<sniff> I don't care how many CFI's you eliminate, I seriously doubt that a CFI's position would EVER pay airline rates. The most we are talking about is a %50 increase...and gee, hmmm, that goes from $15 to $30. Wow, $15 an hour...wooo. Don't forget, the school will likely see their take remaining at the same percentage, so they ALSO make more.

Especially if its as drastic as you are recommending it.

It's hardly drastic to consider MAYBE requring CFI's to get some real word experience...especially on the order of 250 hours. It's also not asking anything to allow those who DO NOT WANT TO DO IT to be able to go on to something else.

your about, or soon, to retire and still want to make a living instructing - but still make a decent living doing so.

Dude, you're a noob, so I am going to cut you some slack here. Suffice to say that ANYONE who started flying professionally will have 10k hours in their mid thirties. I've got a couple of decades left to go, and I will NEVER have to depend on CFIing to make a decent living.

But getting back to our accident de jour. It used to be that you had to take EVERY CFI ride or additional CFI rating with an FAA inspector. They started to switch switch back to this 1988, when you had to take the initial CFI ride with the feds. I can forsee them moving even further back to mandating that EVERY CFI ride be done in-house.

Nu

 

[mattpilot]

Ahaha, ahaha hahahhah....<sniff> I don't care how many CFI's you eliminate, I seriously doubt that a CFI's position would EVER pay airline rates. The most we are talking about is a %50 increase...and gee, hmmm, that goes from $15 to $30. Wow, $15 an hour...wooo. Don't forget, the school will likely see their take remaining at the same percentage, so they ALSO make more.

That right there is the main problem with your arguement. Please explain why any sane pilot would want to go instruct after acquiring 1500 hours, if he instead could go to an airline and make some quality money?

The only reason anyone would do that is if pay was good... not just adequate, but GOOD! Matching airline pay! Instructing is not as glamerous as flying a big jet.

So please explain.... if your 135/instructor requirement switch were to take place today... who would go instruct?


As i've said, i am not against a $5-$15 incrase in wage. However, the only way to get instructors to instruct if your *idea* were to take shape, is to offer them considerable more than that. And you, my friend, have not thought that through what consequences that has on the rest of the industry in the long run.

 

[NuGuy]

That right there is the main problem with your arguement. Please explain why any sane pilot would want to go instruct after acquiring 1500 hours, if he instead could go to an airline and make some quality money?

The only reason anyone would do that is if pay was good... not just adequate, but GOOD! Matching airline pay! Instructing is not as glamerous as flying a big jet.

So please explain.... if your 135/instructor requirement switch were to take place today... who would go instruct?


As i've said, i am not against a $5-$15 incrase in wage. However, the only way to get instructors to instruct if your *idea* were to take shape, is to offer them considerable more than that. And you, my friend, have not thought that through what consequences that has on the rest of the industry in the long run.

Apparently you are unfamiliar with part 135 regs. Very simplified, you can fly VFR part 135 at 500 tt, and IFR 135 at 1200 hours.

My suggestion was to require 500tt for the CFIA, and perhaps 1000tt for the CFII (although 1200 is required for 135 IFR ops). OTOH, Part 135 Cargo Only mins would be reduced to the simple commercial with instrument.

500tt is a long, long way from 1500tt.

Who would be left to instruct? ONLY THOSE WHO WANTED TO DO IT! That is the whole point. Obviously you can't get your head around the idea of someone teaching for the enjoyment of it. They can't pay elementary school teachers enough, IMHO, for ANYONE to want that job, yet there seems to be plenty of people willing to do it.

Nu

 

[mattpilot]

LoL.. only those who wanted to... exactly!

How many do you know that want to? Out of the 50 some instructors at my school, 2 are career instructors. Everyone else is trying to leave!


Good thinking their pal - i believe i've made my point, even though you can't understand it. The scenario you just listed would result in less pilots being pumped out per year creating the situation i've discribed. I guess you can't understand that.

Good day, mate!

 

[JAFI]

One of my first instructors had 20 years of instructing when I showed up. Oh, he had a real job that paid good money but every day (he worked at night) or week end he was able, he would be at the airport teaching. I am glad I found him. My first couple of instructors were there one day and gone the next.

It is too bad the system has people who teach only to gain hours. I think a good instructor can be a better pilot and a good pilot should be able to teach the craft to the newer pilots.

If you do not want to teach, for your sake and the sake of your students, just don't teach! Just MHO.

JAFI

 

[NuGuy]

One of my first instructors had 20 years of instructing when I showed up. Oh, he had a real job that paid good money but every day (he worked at night) or week end he was able, he would be at the airport teaching. I am glad I found him. My first couple of instructors were there one day and gone the next.

It is too bad the system has people who teach only to gain hours. I think a good instructor can be a better pilot and a good pilot should be able to teach the craft to the newer pilots.

If you do not want to teach, for your sake and the sake of your students, just don't teach! Just MHO.

JAFI

Heyas JAFI,

I agree. Our intrepid poster above is all for forcing people into a job they don't want to do, all in the name of keeping costs low (for himself, I note).

Future management material in the making there...

Nu

 

[mattpilot]

Heyas JAFI,

I agree. Our intrepid poster above is all for forcing people into a job they don't want to do, all in the name of keeping costs low (for himself, I note).

Future management material in the making there...

Nu

B.S. - Don't twist my words!

You need to understand what implications your little *idea* has.

 

[minitour]

Heyas JAFI,

I agree. Our intrepid poster above is all for forcing people into a job they don't want to do, all in the name of keeping costs low (for himself, I note).

Future management material in the making there...

Nu

Seems like you folks are alright with forcing someone into flying 135 cargo when they don't want to do it. But hey, it's okay, because they need those 500 or 1000 hours to instruct, right? I mean, if they really want to instruct, they won't mind flying 135 Cargo.

...The most we are talking about is a %50 increase...and gee, hmmm, that goes from $15 to $30...

Actually that would be a 100% pay increase. 50% would be $7.50 on $15.00. I'm all for a way to go from making $15 to $30 an hour.

-mini

 

[NuGuy]

B.S. - Don't twist my words!

You need to understand what implications your little *idea* has.

I am well aware...it would provide a more dedicated instructor force (with a better quality of life) and raise the average quality of instruction provided, at a nominal cost increase. It would eliminate most of the time builders.

But hmmm, let's look at another effect. People comming to train from overseas would no longer be able to prompty work after recieving their ratings. That loophole only works for instructing. Instead they would have to build time another way...and without work, that means paying for it.

But since you really don't see this much at the smaller part 61 FBOs or the Mom & Pops, it would only affect the big 141 schools. It probably wouldn't have much affect on recreational flying.

Of course, that won't stop some. Building the extra 250 hours is still probably cheaper that going home to build the time. So it won't stop all the time builders, but at lease they'll have a bit more experience when they start teaching.

Nu

 

[NuGuy]

Actually that would be a 100% pay increase. 50% would be $7.50 on $15.00. I'm all for a way to go from making $15 to $30 an hour.
-mini

You are correct sir. My bad math...

Seems like all we hear about is people who don't want to instruct, and how limited the low time non-instructing jobs are. This just opens up a different path.

But assuming you don't want to fly 135 cargo to build time...it's only "forcing" you to do it (or other time building) for 250 hours until you meet the mins for the CFI. Today, if you don't want to be a CFI, you're stuck instructing for 1000 hours.

Nu