Ntsb Notes First Officer's Failure....in 2003 Fedex Crash

[ABOVE ME]

ditto

 

[dee48eal]

yeah- what he said

 

[81Horse]

Voices of reason. Good.

 

[SuperKooter]

Thats what happens when you hire for race/sex and not piloting skills.

 

[81Horse]

Thats what happens when you hire for race/sex and not piloting skills.

How do you explain the occasional screw-ups of male pilots?

 

[ReportCanoa]

How do you explain the occasional screw-ups of male pilots?

Examining the female to male airline pilot ratio compared with the accident/ mishap rate for each would yield a rather obvious disparity in the favor of females to be involved. That is a fact Jack.

 

[Purpledog]

Was a female piloting the MD10 gear collapse last week?

 

[ReportCanoa]

I heard, but do not know, that she won the lawsuit and might be back soon.

I hope you have a system to drop trips. Bad news for MD-11 reserve captains. There is always the sick call option, however.

 

[dee48eal]

last week's gear collapse - 2 females

 

[dojetdriver]

How do you explain the occasional screw-ups of male pilots?

How many male pilots are afforded so many check ride failures/screw ups and are able to still fly the line?

Probably not as many.

 

[81Horse]

Examining the female to male airline pilot ratio compared with the accident/ mishap rate for each would yield a rather obvious disparity in the favor of females to be involved. That is a fact Jack.

Show me the stats. I dispute your fact, Jack.

How many male pilots are afforded so many check ride failures/screw ups and are able to still fly the line?

Probably not as many.

Again, show me the stats. Until you can, you've got nothing but anectodes to back up your opinion. IIRC, about 85 percent of airline pilots are white men -- maybe more. I've seen nothing to show that 15 percent of all accidents and incidents are caused by the errors of nonwhite, nonmale pilots.

But maybe one of you can prove your case to me. Meanwhile, at least one FedEx pilot here is reminding us that there just might be something hinky with the landing gear system on the airplane.

I remember how quickly and happily people blamed the UAL COS 737 accident on the female FO, too.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

How do you explain the occasional screw-ups of male pilots?

The accident report seems to rule out any pre-existing defect in the landing gear or in the conditions under which it was certified. There was no discernable flare prior to impact...she flew it into the ground, plain and simple. Hauling back on the yoke after you've pranged your jet onto the runway doesn't count...it has to be done before the landing gear has sheared.

It's a mistake that student pilots make all the time, as the absence of wheel pants on most Cessna 150's will attest. It's also a mistake that most Cessna 150's will endure, as evidenced by the numbers of them still around. MD-10's are not so forgiving, nor should they be. By the time a person gets to the window seat of a transport-category aircraft, it's assumed they have a pretty good idea about when to "flare" based on visual cues alone.

For the rest, there are radar-altimeters. Which were working normally, BTW.

In this case, as in the Auburn Calloway incident, there was a pattern of behaviors/performance issues which led directly and inexorably to this accident. Also, as in the Calloway case, the company was actively pursuing the steps necessary to correct the problem at the time the accident occured. FedEx, as a corporate entity, was just a wee bit too late in recognizing the severity of the problem and initiating a correction, that's all.

Kinda like the F/O on her last landing...

 

[81Horse]

All of which may well be factual, Whistlin' Dan. I don't know; I'm not privy to FedEx personnel information.

But I am still asking the posters above to cite some statistics that prove the distribution of incompetence across the pilot population is not random.

People here are implying a higher incidence of incompetence among women pilots than among men. Because anecdotes take on a life of their own ("I've got a friend at ABC and he says somebody told him that some chick there yada yada yada.") and magnify each actual occurence, I remain unconvinced.

And I knew it was only a matter of time before someone here brought up Calloway. Um, yeah; women pilots are just like suicidal, homicidal maniacs. I'm starting to think a lot of people here have had nasty divorces.

 

[HalinTexas]

Why can't so many pilots use their feet during landing?

Or, in the case of the UA B747-400 that almost crashed into Mt. Bruno after an engine failure on T/O.

 

[FedEx1]

Regardless what what previous final accident reports have said, they may or may not be correct. Remember back when Business Express had that training flight with 3 go down in the water? The NTSB investigated, and based on their findings, said the pilot lost situational awareness, got vertigo and crashed into the water. The families didn't believe it and did an independant investigation. They found out they had "propeller flutter" and the prop cut off part of the tail causing the crash. It took a while, but the NTSB finally capitulated and changed their report.

So ya just don't know.

As for that other crap about female pilots, stop taking the bait and let that dog lie.

 

[Purpledog]

We gotta stop hiring civilians since they keep crashin' all our planes. <---flamebait Just pulling your chain fellas, readyroom humor.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

All of which may well be factual, Whistlin' Dan. I don't know; I'm not privy to FedEx personnel information.

But I am still asking the posters above to cite some statistics that prove the distribution of incompetence across the pilot population is not random.

People here are implying a higher incidence of incompetence among women pilots than among men. Because anecdotes take on a life of their own ("I've got a friend at ABC and he says somebody told him that some chick there yada yada yada.") and magnify each actual occurence, I remain unconvinced.

And I knew it was only a matter of time before someone here brought up Calloway. Um, yeah; women pilots are just like suicidal, homicidal maniacs. I'm starting to think a lot of people here have had nasty divorces.

Please! Leave my smoldering, stinking, pus-hole of a divorce out of this discussion!

I don't have access to FedEx personal data either, nor did I know any of the parties involved. I got my information on FE 647 from the NTSB report, and on 705 from Hirschman's book. I left out "what I heard from a friend of a friend" regarding Navy Lt. Kara Hultgren because it's hearsay, and I left out what I knew about the work history of the female Controller at LAX (the one who merged US Air and SkyWest on 24L) because I didn't have the info in front of me. I'm really not out to dawg women, honest! It's the system that puts such an emphasis on hiring people based on factors other than their job skills that could benefit from some review, that's all.

I work with a number of female aircrew members, and they're generally excellent pilots and good people to be around. I'm a better guy to be around when women are on the flight deck. But I've also seen a few females that didn't work out. Two were clearly hired before they were "ready"...I.E., directly out of GenAv piston A/C and into turbojet airline cockpits. I tried to bring both up to speed (sometimes on my personal time) but couldn't, at least not in the time allotted. In my estimation, both got a raw deal by being hired without the turbine PIC experience that is typically required of our male pilot-applicants.

Another came to us with a rather extensive history of training difficulties and EEOC complaints against her former employer, a Legacy Carrier. I flew with her one time. Had our jumpseater not initiated, on his own, a corrective action on her panel, we would have likely been faced with making a diversion. She didn't last long at our company, or at the one she went to after she left here. At least, that's what I heard...:laugh:

I'm not prepared to say that the "distribution of accidents across the pilot population is not random." However, I could say with some conviction that at some companies, the desire to maintain a "politically correct and culturally diverse" workplace has led management to take extraordinary measures to hire, train, and standardize certain employees.

Sometimes, that costs them big bucks.

I would further submit that any company who "carries" such employees taints the legitimate accomplishments of those crewmembers who don't require extra training and special dispensation throughout their careers. It pi$$es them off to be lumped in with the others simply by virtue of their common gender.

Back to you, Jane...

 

[81Horse]

... I would further submit that any company who "carries" such employees taints the legitimate accomplishments of those crewmembers who don't require extra training and special dispensation throughout their careers. It pi$$es them off to be lumped in with the others simply by virtue of their common gender...

I agree.

Of course, I'm someone who believes all personal data (name, sex, age, race, etc.) should be stripped from employment applications before screening.

 

[FedEx1]

Ok, that's it. I am calling the Humane Society to report you guys for beating a dead horse.

Yeah, it sucks when someone gets a job that might not deserve it because they are a "whatever." But it's not like there are that many of them out there to compete with in the first place.

 

[Hogan]

so did she get rehired or not?

 

[81Horse]

Ok, that's it. I am calling the Humane Society to report you guys for beating a dead horse. ...

Please -- no. It'd be my third strike.

 

[dojetdriver]

I agree.

Of course, I'm someone who believes all personal data (name, sex, age, race, etc.) should be stripped from employment applications before screening.

You mean like United when they had their scantron forms? Yep, works pretty good for hiring only the most qualifed people regardless of race/gender.

What do you think the pilot demographic would have looked like at UAL if all they ever did was call the people that had the highest numbers in the far left or two far right sections of the form?

Probably not the same.