NTSB faults Flight Options check airman

[cgmason1]

The 737-700 has the following autoland wind limits:
Headwind: 25 knots
Crosswind: 20 knots
Tailwind: 15 knots

Fly Safe
Chuck

 

[vclean]

I have not heard of a xwind limitation for a CAT I approach. The two 121 operations I have worked at had no such limitation in our regulations or opspecs. I did a search on the FAA site and found no language regarding a 10Kt Xwind CAT I limitation.

If this was the case, a lot of us would be called into the CP's office and getting phone calls from our PIO.

 

[Aspiring to be]

I will have to find it later, it is there. CAT I 1800RVR -2400RVR. It would be very rare to have more than 10 knots with RVR less than 2400. I have seen it maybe two or three times in over thirty years. Not saying it does not accure more often but that is all that I can remember. I have never seen a CAT II or III that I could not shoot due to x-wind. The 10 knot restriction does not apply for an ILS less (more vis) than Cat I.

 

[Singlecoil]

Maybe you haven't flown in a while, but 600RVR is now Cat IIIa, not Cat IIIb. This was a change made several years ago to get the US more in line with ICAO minimums.
Less then 2400 RVR and greater than a 10 knot crosswind is not at all uncommon in some areas of the country. Advection fog in coastal areas in the summer, and blowing snow in the winter will cause these conditions with pervasive regularity. Again, there is no FAR x-wind limit.

 

[100-1/2]

Does anyone else see this?

Braking action reported as, "poor". I don't know of many 135 operators' POI's that allow use of a contaminated runway with anything less than fair and/or without a recalculation of required landing lengths. Even on Part 91 Legs, you cannot exceed your Ops Specs unless they specifically make exception under Part 91 Ops. It seems to me they were hosed from the moment the Hawker made the report.

In a situation like this workload is understandibly high and full consideration on such a report could easily be missed by the PIC, however, it was acknowledged and should have been weighed heavier. Yes it is Mon Morning QB, but there is a reason those limits exist. I am dissappointed that such an experienced aviator allowed his own capabilities to be exceeded. I am mildly dissappointed the FO did not question the Capt on the Hawker's report and assert an alternative course of action such as servicing the client out of Hopkins. I say Mildly because he already had his hands and thoughts full of airplane at the moment the report was relayed by tower. That is why these aircraft require 2-TWO pilot CREWS.

Am I wrong or are there Operators that would have been legal to land at the airport after the HS report? If it would have been legal, would it have been safe?

I am thinking to myself:

"11pm, there is one COUNTY worker plowing the runway and his pay is not based on quality assurance or expeditious snow removal. It is cold and he is probably just running the brush a couple of real quick sweeps before the airport closes, so he can get back in the maintenance shack and watch the rest of Howard Stern on E!"

One fine career rounding the corner to retirement was ended prematurely and another obviously in the early stages of blossoming has been largely affected. I think a lot can be learned here and appreciate the initial post so long as it was free from competitive jousting or glee in this hardship.

100-1/2

 

[SheGaveMeClap]

I will have to find it later, it is there. CAT I 1800RVR -2400RVR. It would be very rare to have more than 10 knots with RVR less than 2400.

Have you ever shot an approach in the midwest during a good blizzard? I'd be willing to bet it happens once a week. Good grief, in some places in Montanta, ten knots is calm during a blizzard.

 

[Aspiring to be]

Not with CAT I weather

 

[AceCrackshot]

West of the Mississippi, its easy to get CAT I in high winds, either torrential downpours or blowing snow...Montana and Wyoming are prime examples. Billings, MT for example, is a prime fog machine, and Cheyenne doesn't get winds below about 15 kts, just about ever...I'd have to second SheGaveMe on this one...

 

[Aspiring to be]

I have shot more approaches than I can count. My first CAT II approach was around 1968 or 69. I have shot many approaches in every area of the country and most of the world. In my almost 27000 hours of flight I have seen maybe, maybe two times where I could not shot a CAT I due to x-wind of more than 10 knots. I have never seen a CAT II or III approach that I could not shot because of a 10 knot x-wind. I have never shot a CAT III that had 10 knots of head wind. I have only shot a couple of CAT II’s that had a head wind stronger than 10 knots. I have never seen a CAT I, CAT II or CAT III weather that was due to fog that had 10 knots of more of wind as ACE has. Maybe I have just lead a charmed life.

ACE, I do hope you do not land in torrential downpours that causes the weather to be CAT I. If you do I hope you are flying solo. Very few if any runways can have the water run off fast enough to not have a very serious problem with standing water under such conditions. No landing is worth exposing your passengers to such dangers. I do have a lot of experience flying in monsoon weather.

I have looked for the x-wind limits of 10 knots for CAT I and below and can not find them. I know for sure that 10 knots was the limit at one time and not just my company. Maybe it has been changed since I retired. I know now that some airplanes can auto land with 25 knots of x-wind, why anyone would do such a think is beyond me, but!

I still believe that 99.9% of the time you have CAT I weather or below you do not have 10 knots of x-wind. You might have head winds stronger than 10 knots but not x-winds. I disagree with ACE that it is not easy to get CAT I or below weather with even head winds stronger than 10 knots. Blowing snow is about the only weather that would give you that type of wind and reduced visability and when that happens I bet that the wind is less than 10 knots of x-wind. Runways are built with the prevailing winds in mind.

I do believe the old saying that you have some old pilots, you have some bold pilots but you do not have old bold pilots.

May you all live to be at least my age.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Dude, just admit that your statement was wrong. There has never been a " FAR " limitation on crosswind landing limits for Cat I approaches. Certainly airlines and manufacturers have limits or limitations on crosswind during certain conditions, whether it be autoland or runway condition. If you flew for an airline that imposed a 10 knot crosswind limit for Cat I approaches I wonder how you ever landed at some airports.

The 777 autolands quite nicely with a 25 knot crosswind on a dry runway, however our limits are 20 knots for Standing water/Slush, and 15 knots for Ice ( no melting ). That would be reduced a further 5 knots if one reverser was inop.


Typhoonpilot

 

[Skaz]

somebody said that careers came to an end here.....what happened to these guys, what did the FAA do to them?

do you get like...one strike and then youre out of the industry? thats scary

 

[limodriver1]

poor PIC decision

Poor PIC decision

 

[JetCapt69]

I think

....the PIC (Check Airman) is still with the company, but I think he is in the office. The SIC...dunno.

 

[FracCapt]

The PIC should have been canned. Landing at County in a Diamond with a contaminated runway is stupid...no matter how many times you've "done it before" or how much "time in type" you have.