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NTSB faults Flight Options check airman

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TailDraggerTed

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 3, 2004
Posts
45
NTSB faults check airman in Flight Options MU-300 overrun

by Gordon Gilbert
Aviation International News
April 2004


“The pilot’s failure to obtain the proper touchdown point on the runway at Cuyahoga County Airport [CGF], Cleveland, Ohio, and the PIC’s failure to initiate a go-around,” were cited by the NTSB in its recently published final report as the probable cause of the Feb. 10, 2002, overrun accident of a Flight Options Mitsubishi MU-300 Diamond, N541CW. Night IMC prevailed at the time of the accident, in which no one was injured, though the airplane suffered substantial damage. The report pointed to an 18-knot tailwind and a runway covered with snow as factors in the accident.

According to the PIC, who was also a Flight Options check airman, before the accident flight and after a flight with six passengers from Marquette, Mich., to Chicago Palwaukee Airport (PWK), dispatch instructed him to reposition the airplane to CGF. The PIC proceeded to order fuel and check the current weather in the Cleveland area. He also called the CGF tower to inquire about the current weather and any braking-action reports. The tower controller stated to the PIC that a Citation had just landed and reported the braking action as fair to good.

The flight departed Palwaukee Airport in Chicago at about 9:50 p.m. with the SIC at the controls. On arriving in the Cleveland area, the approach controller advised the flight crew that the current CGF weather was 300 feet overcast, half-mile visibility in snow and wind 320 degrees variable to 350 degrees at 12 to 15 knots, gusting to 25 knots. The approach in use was the Runway 23 ILS (the airstrip has since been redesignated as Runway 24). There was no precision approach for Runway 5 (now Runway 6). The PIC also recalled that he heard the controller say that Cleveland Hopkins Airport, about 20 miles west of CGF, was closed due to snow removal and would reopen in approximately 30 minutes.

While being vectored for the ILS approach, the controller said the airplane was number two following a Hawker. The SIC was the pilot flying (PF).

Braking Action Reported as ‘Poor’
ATC then gave N541CW a heading to intercept the final approach course and cleared it for the approach. The PIC decided, at this point, that if the airplane did not stabilize on the approach by 1,900 feet msl, he would execute a missed approach. The airplane stabilized at 2,000 feet, with the landing gear extended, full flaps and a Vref speed of 106 knots plus five knots.

The PIC told the Safety Board that the tower advised the flight crew that the runway had been plowed, and that the Hawker had just landed and reported the braking action as “poor.” The PIC said he visually identified the runway at 300 to 400 feet above DH. To the SIC’s best recollection, the tower controller never gave the flight crew the braking action report and he said the airplane broke out about 200 to 300 feet above the DH, with the runway in sight.

During the approach, the SIC told the PIC that if “there’s no brakes I’m going around.” After touchdown, both pilots said they could feel no anti-skid pulsating through the brake pedals. The airplane decelerated slowly, and the PIC decided that with the runway remaining it was too late to attempt a go-around.

Both the PIC and SIC told the Safety Board that touchdown was within the first 500 to 600 feet of the 5,100-foot-long runway. But an airport employee in a snow plow at taxiway intersection A8 told the NTSB that the twinjet touched down between intersections A5 and A6, more than halfway down the runway.

The Safety Board concluded that the jet touched down with 2,233 feet of runway remaining. (According to the airplane flight manual, the estimated landing distance on a dry runway was about 2,750 feet. No charts existed in the AFM to compute landing distance on a contaminated runway, nor were they required.) The aircraft slid off the end of the runway at between 30 and 40 mph, according to the NTSB.

Crew Discussed Landing Distance
Some 30 minutes before touchdown, the pilots began a discussion regarding the runway length available at CGF, according to the CVR. The PIC calculated that the runway required to land would be 2,720 feet. The SIC queried whether that number was for a dry runway, which the PIC confirmed. The PIC stated, “So even if you add half…13…ah that’s 4,000. County’s 5,100 feet.”

At about 10:58 p.m., three or four minutes before touchdown, the tower controller advised the flight crew, “…there’s a thin layer of snow on the runway. The Tapley readings are 540…545…the runway’s been cleared almost full length and width…the braking by the last aircraft reported as ‘poor.’” The PIC replied, “All right.”

A minute later, the PIC stated, “Keep coming down, we’re way below, a-above glideslope.” The SIC responded, “Well I mean I was below before the localizer even came in.” The PIC replied, “…exactly. Let’s see if we can salvage it.” A couple of seconds later, the PIC stated, “Little low on glideslope,” to which the SIC replied, “Correcting.”

Seconds before touchdown, the tower controller advised the pilots that the wind was 330 degrees at 18 knots.

About a second before touchdown, the SIC exclaimed, “Holy mackerel, it’s windy.” The PIC replied, “Yeah, watch your speed,” followed by, “Ref and 10…sinking five. You’re a little high, get her down.” The SIC responded, “Coming down.” Then the PIC stated, “Chop the power…get down.”

After touchdown, the PIC stated, “What do you got. Boards are out. Straighten out.” About eight seconds later, the PIC stated, “Cold cock one…power back.” The SIC responded, “It’s back…we ain’t going to stop.”
Several seconds after that, the PIC advised the tower controller, “Ah, 541 we rolled off the end.”

The PIC reported 12,478 hours TT, of which about 2,000 hours were in the Beechjet and Diamond. The SIC reported he had a total of 3,899 hours, with 326 hours in Beechjets and Diamonds.

FAR Part 25 does not require manufacturers to determine landing distances on wet or contaminated runways, although some manufacturers have determined or estimated this data and have included it in their aircraft flight manuals.
 
The Hawker landed just fine...whats this chumps excuse?

:D ;)

But seriously..whats the point of this report?

- an inexperienced SIC at the controls
- an 18kt tailwind
- nightime, 5100ft runway
- snow covered runway
- poor braking action 5 minutes prior to landing (read: NONE)


although the best part? - that approach briefing - ...."um, if we land and theres no braking we are going around"....

:eek:
 
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The article states an 18 knot tailwind on landing...but I read it as an 18 knot crosswind, with maybe a couple knots of tailwind component. In any case, against company policy for crosswinds on contaminated runways...and not smart, either. Wind reported as 330@18 on a runway with a magnetic heading of 237 degrees.

The Diamond has always been known for having bad brakes and they do not have T/R's. Attempting to land on this runway was stupid, at best...and as for the Hawker crew that landed before them, well..again, stupid - but at least they were lucky.
 
I agree...dumb move. The check airman, with his experience and in a diamond, should have known better than to land that thing at county. However, when you land halfway down the runway, that is just stupid.

How many times have you heard someone brief, "If it doesn't look good, we are going around?" Just DO IT.

I don't think the check airman is back flying the line either, is he? We have SOP's for a reason, and this was a good example of why. 18 knot xwind at CGF is common, but against SOP for conditions.

Just fortunate no one was injured.
 
I know this was part 91 and there are no restrictions. Only what you boss tells you to do and what you are dumb enough to try. I wonder what the owners really want and expect.

The weather conditions were below what any airline would be allowed to do. Visibility of less than a mile and x-wind stronger than 10 knots is a no no. Part 121 for a CAT 1, 2, or 3 approach you can not have more than a 10 knot x-wind. Could it be time to act as professionals instead of cowboys? Reduced braking, short runway, landing long, fast and with a tail wind is not dumb it is an indication of a much more serious problem.
 
who did you fly for under Part 121 that restricted xwind landings/approaches to 10 knots?

We had a 10 knot tail wind restriction but I have flown approaches with much more xwind than 10 knots especially in the midwest and south.
 
You did not read my response. The limit of 10 knots x-wind is for Cat 1, 2 and 3 approaches. It is in the FAR's. The weather as stated was Cat 1 making the approach illegal under 121. Above Cat 1 most airplanes do not have a x-wind limit only a max demostrated. You are correct in that 10 knots use to be the max tailwind but most of the aircraft (large) now have a 15 knot tailwind limit.
 
Aspiring to Be

You can add your own picture pretty easily.

Click on USER CP at the top of the page
Click on EDIT Options

at the bottom...look for Avatar

Add your own, but make sure it is within the size limits.

She's HOT isn't she!
 
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Aspiring to be said:
Visibility of less than a mile and x-wind stronger than 10 knots is a no no. Part 121 for a CAT 1, 2, or 3 approach you can not have more than a 10 knot x-wind.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. There is no such limit in the FAR's. Perhaps you are referring to contaminated runway operations, i.e, when the braking action is reported poor. Then there very well may be a 10kt x-wind limit, but that will be airplane or company specific, again not found in the FAR's. I have flown two different airplanes under 121 that can do a 600RVR cat III with a 15 knot x-wind, but not if the runway is contaminated.
 
If there was a Cat 1 10 kts x-wind limit than there would be not approaches done by the airlines at ORD in the fall or spring. I think you may have something with CatIII. But lets face it is it is really CatIII conditions than most likely it is do to fog and there is very little or no wind.
 
I do not have time to find the FAR now but I stand by what I said and that is you can not make a CAT 1, 2 or 3 approaches with more than 10 knots of x-wind under part 121.

Not sure if any aircraft autopilot is certified to autoland with 15 knots of x-wind. I have a type for the 767 and several older airliners. I would never make an autoland for weather above CAT II. I have made many manual landing from a CAT II approach. For CAT III except with a very few exceptions you must (must) autoland. Some operators with a heads-up display can make a manual landing. A 600 RVR approach would be a CAT III b and would require an autoland. The approach would be limited to 10 knots of cross wind. You must be mistaken about the 15 knots. The autopilot might be certified to autoland with 15 knots of x-wind but you could not shoot the approach with more than 10 knots.

I was wrong in the landing made at CLE was not a CAT I. I was thinking vis. was less than 1/2 mile.
 
The 737-700 has the following autoland wind limits:
Headwind: 25 knots
Crosswind: 20 knots
Tailwind: 15 knots

Fly Safe
Chuck
 
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I have not heard of a xwind limitation for a CAT I approach. The two 121 operations I have worked at had no such limitation in our regulations or opspecs. I did a search on the FAA site and found no language regarding a 10Kt Xwind CAT I limitation.

If this was the case, a lot of us would be called into the CP's office and getting phone calls from our PIO.
 
I will have to find it later, it is there. CAT I 1800RVR -2400RVR. It would be very rare to have more than 10 knots with RVR less than 2400. I have seen it maybe two or three times in over thirty years. Not saying it does not accure more often but that is all that I can remember. I have never seen a CAT II or III that I could not shoot due to x-wind. The 10 knot restriction does not apply for an ILS less (more vis) than Cat I.
 
Maybe you haven't flown in a while, but 600RVR is now Cat IIIa, not Cat IIIb. This was a change made several years ago to get the US more in line with ICAO minimums.
Less then 2400 RVR and greater than a 10 knot crosswind is not at all uncommon in some areas of the country. Advection fog in coastal areas in the summer, and blowing snow in the winter will cause these conditions with pervasive regularity. Again, there is no FAR x-wind limit.
 
Does anyone else see this?

Braking action reported as, "poor". I don't know of many 135 operators' POI's that allow use of a contaminated runway with anything less than fair and/or without a recalculation of required landing lengths. Even on Part 91 Legs, you cannot exceed your Ops Specs unless they specifically make exception under Part 91 Ops. It seems to me they were hosed from the moment the Hawker made the report.

In a situation like this workload is understandibly high and full consideration on such a report could easily be missed by the PIC, however, it was acknowledged and should have been weighed heavier. Yes it is Mon Morning QB, but there is a reason those limits exist. I am dissappointed that such an experienced aviator allowed his own capabilities to be exceeded. I am mildly dissappointed the FO did not question the Capt on the Hawker's report and assert an alternative course of action such as servicing the client out of Hopkins. I say Mildly because he already had his hands and thoughts full of airplane at the moment the report was relayed by tower. That is why these aircraft require 2-TWO pilot CREWS.

Am I wrong or are there Operators that would have been legal to land at the airport after the HS report? If it would have been legal, would it have been safe?

I am thinking to myself:

"11pm, there is one COUNTY worker plowing the runway and his pay is not based on quality assurance or expeditious snow removal. It is cold and he is probably just running the brush a couple of real quick sweeps before the airport closes, so he can get back in the maintenance shack and watch the rest of Howard Stern on E!"

One fine career rounding the corner to retirement was ended prematurely and another obviously in the early stages of blossoming has been largely affected. I think a lot can be learned here and appreciate the initial post so long as it was free from competitive jousting or glee in this hardship.

100-1/2
 
Aspiring to be said:
I will have to find it later, it is there. CAT I 1800RVR -2400RVR. It would be very rare to have more than 10 knots with RVR less than 2400.

Have you ever shot an approach in the midwest during a good blizzard? I'd be willing to bet it happens once a week. Good grief, in some places in Montanta, ten knots is calm during a blizzard.
 
West of the Mississippi, its easy to get CAT I in high winds, either torrential downpours or blowing snow...Montana and Wyoming are prime examples. Billings, MT for example, is a prime fog machine, and Cheyenne doesn't get winds below about 15 kts, just about ever...I'd have to second SheGaveMe on this one...
 
I have shot more approaches than I can count. My first CAT II approach was around 1968 or 69. I have shot many approaches in every area of the country and most of the world. In my almost 27000 hours of flight I have seen maybe, maybe two times where I could not shot a CAT I due to x-wind of more than 10 knots. I have never seen a CAT II or III approach that I could not shot because of a 10 knot x-wind. I have never shot a CAT III that had 10 knots of head wind. I have only shot a couple of CAT II’s that had a head wind stronger than 10 knots. I have never seen a CAT I, CAT II or CAT III weather that was due to fog that had 10 knots of more of wind as ACE has. Maybe I have just lead a charmed life.

ACE, I do hope you do not land in torrential downpours that causes the weather to be CAT I. If you do I hope you are flying solo. Very few if any runways can have the water run off fast enough to not have a very serious problem with standing water under such conditions. No landing is worth exposing your passengers to such dangers. I do have a lot of experience flying in monsoon weather.

I have looked for the x-wind limits of 10 knots for CAT I and below and can not find them. I know for sure that 10 knots was the limit at one time and not just my company. Maybe it has been changed since I retired. I know now that some airplanes can auto land with 25 knots of x-wind, why anyone would do such a think is beyond me, but!

I still believe that 99.9% of the time you have CAT I weather or below you do not have 10 knots of x-wind. You might have head winds stronger than 10 knots but not x-winds. I disagree with ACE that it is not easy to get CAT I or below weather with even head winds stronger than 10 knots. Blowing snow is about the only weather that would give you that type of wind and reduced visability and when that happens I bet that the wind is less than 10 knots of x-wind. Runways are built with the prevailing winds in mind.

I do believe the old saying that you have some old pilots, you have some bold pilots but you do not have old bold pilots.

May you all live to be at least my age.
 
Dude, just admit that your statement was wrong. There has never been a " FAR " limitation on crosswind landing limits for Cat I approaches. Certainly airlines and manufacturers have limits or limitations on crosswind during certain conditions, whether it be autoland or runway condition. If you flew for an airline that imposed a 10 knot crosswind limit for Cat I approaches I wonder how you ever landed at some airports.

The 777 autolands quite nicely with a 25 knot crosswind on a dry runway, however our limits are 20 knots for Standing water/Slush, and 15 knots for Ice ( no melting ). That would be reduced a further 5 knots if one reverser was inop.


Typhoonpilot
 
somebody said that careers came to an end here.....what happened to these guys, what did the FAA do to them?

do you get like...one strike and then youre out of the industry? thats scary
 
I think

....the PIC (Check Airman) is still with the company, but I think he is in the office. The SIC...dunno.
 
The PIC should have been canned. Landing at County in a Diamond with a contaminated runway is stupid...no matter how many times you've "done it before" or how much "time in type" you have.
 

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