NPA shoots across AirTran (Leonards) Bow

[CA1900]

Deleted rant about my present employer heading down the same road.

I'm going to get myself in trouble.

 

[Newjetjockey]

When are the pilots going to realize that Joe and Fornaro are only taking home the extra money made from the subsidizations from the new cities. Give them a break, they thought about it before the MEC did. Another model of a superiority complex between two groups. Just the beginning of the end of the honeymoon. Well Joe and Bob, thanks for the memories. It was nice while it lasted.

Lowecur you really have no clue. Its all about leading by example. Airtran's management has been pounding the paycut drum for months and then decide to give themselves bonuses. That is not too smart if you ask me. That reminds me of many airline's old school playbook. Airlines like UsAir and UAL come to mind. I don't think Southwest's management would have played the game that way. That is the point of the article. You may want to reread it.

Perhaps a smarter way to get your employees behind you and the company would be to give bonuses when getting bonuses. If you need paycuts then take a paycut too.

 

[sandman2122]

Future problems

You can easily replace "Airtran" with "Jetblue" real soon, I predict we'll be reading about JB's unhappy pilot group in the near future.

 

[CMonBoard]

Sandman, How can you say that about JetBlue? Is there anything that they've done that point to those types of issues? I haven't read anything about that and several friends haven't alluded to any sour relations there. Without naming a source for your post or something to back it up it is nothing but rumor fodder.

LUV management has historically done a very good job fostering good labor relations and I suspect that JetBlue is much the same way. Yes, both companies have or could have some tenuous periods, but overall I think they have done a great job--something the management at AirTran, Alaska, et.al. should take note of.

 

[Smacktard]

Skip... the scuba dive shop that I go diving with raised their boat dive rates accordingly as gas prices went up. People b*tch, pay, and most forget about it... NO OTHER INDUSTRY that I know of passes the increased cost of doing business to the employee - they pass it to the consumer.

It's not our job to subsidize people who can't afford to fly. Once we figure that out, that's when the race to the bottom will be over. But until then....

I think the point is they can't raise fares because they're in the middle of a battle to bring down one or two of the majors. They seem to think they can last longer than Delta or Airways or United. Why raise prices to help them out when fuel is a major factor in helping your cause.

 

[-9Capt]

Honestly, you have it pretty good at AirTran. Why get greedy and screw it up? If you want to make management $$$$, then quit flying and go into management.

All we want is for mgt to abide by what they signed.

They totally disregard the contract, give themselves bonusus, and then come to us looking for yet another concession. GMAFB!!

We gave mgt concessions after 9/11 and they gave themselves bonusus!! We gave concessions to allow Ryan to fly trans-cons. We signed a LOA to allow the ATA deal to go through. All we got in return was more willful contract violations. I'm glad to see the new BOD (MEC) is taking a more heavy handed approach, expect to see more as talks wear on.

That article was long overdue!

 

[CatfishVT9]

That article only serves to show how clueless the NPA Board really is. You can play hardball without resulting to public insults. That was just stupid.


Oh I'm sure I'll hear "but management---------"(fill in the blank). So tell me how personal attacks and the snide comments that are laced in their email updates are going to help in negotiations. Instead of attempting to build bridges, they just built walls.

Good job. Now go get some media training.

 

[Ty Webb]

Actually, the story was probably the result of the new media consultant hired recently.

While it's refreshing to hear the insight of newhires, the situation has some nuances that it takes some time to appreciate.

PM me if you want some background.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

So tell me how personal attacks and the snide comments that are laced in their email updates are going to help in negotiations.

Mr. James probably learned that from this very message board.

 

[CatfishVT9]

Ty,

I know that there are folks who are not happy with how the company is interpreting the contract. I don't dispute any of that. My point is that the way to get the company to see the NPA's point of view is to play hardball with the doors closed. You'll never win a debate by using personal attacks to make your point, and you won't be respected by the company if you make those attacks in the media. Especially since these negotiations have only been going on for a few months.

 

[-9Capt]

Instead of attempting to build bridges, they just built walls.

Building bridges? You must be a new hire. That was already tried over and over again and look where it got us. Each time we bend over a little more, they shove it a little deeper. It's to the point where I'm starting to get a sore throat.

As for the insults you mentioned, as far as I'm concerned, they insulted the entire pilot group by bringing up concessions and giving themselves bonusus (not the 1st time they've done that, but you probably weren't here back then).

The company loves to tell the media about the great relationship they have with the pilot group, how we all hold hands and roast smores around the campfire. Mgt would never sling mud in the media, that would hurt the stock price, which would hurt their bonus check!!

With that said, I still think we have one of the best flying jobs around today, it's just lately my sore throat has been getting worse!!

 

[CatfishVT9]

Yeah I'm new (a year now), but I do know how to negotiate and get things done. 21 years in the military, and especially 2 years on an Admiral's staff teaches you about getting things done. I worked on the staff of the head of all Naval Aviation for the east coast (much bigger than this airline). So I was in on some high level discussions and planning sessions. And I had plenty of media training. If NPA has a media person, they should be fired.


The point is that if you can't maintain your professionalism, you can't be respected, regardless of what the other side does.

Tell me again how this article will help?

 

[SWA/FO]

Yeah but this is not the military...

 

[sleepy]

It seems like the airlines always have the same cycle; start-up, growth, greedy labour and management, stagnation, and death. It looks like Airtran has reached the greedy labour and management stage. JB is still in the growth stage, DAL (along with USAir and Untied) is in the death and near-death stage. Somehow, Contential and NWA keep plugging along.

 

[General Lee]

Sleepy,


Your discontent for DL from your ASA days is so transparent. Enjoy Lowes now. Enjoy their great fleet and their great service at their huge hardware stores. I personally LOVE LOWES, I think they are the BEST at what they do, hands down. Enjoy that, and let the bad ASA/DL memories go. Let go man, let go. Wear your Lowes uniform with pride. Good for you. Are you happy Gene Hackman is the "voice of Lowes" on those commercials? I think it is cool, and he also was the voice of United for awhile.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FLB717]

Catfish,

With the resources you could bring to the Union, please call and get involved, I am sure they would love to have you. I for one very much love this company. I am also still thinking how this will all work to keep the company strong and increase the pilot QOL. But we all need to be proactive in keeping things running. The AJC did what they do best, left out the posative things that were said by the Union and printed the ugly. I am sure it is a lesson learned because we are not a greedy pilot group and we dont hate our leadership, we are just a family with some disfunction that all airlines have. And I feel that we are moving forward and not back, but that doesnt mean it is always easy.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

That article only serves to show how clueless the NPA Board really is. You can play hardball without resulting to public insults. That was just stupid.


Oh I'm sure I'll hear "but management---------"(fill in the blank). So tell me how personal attacks and the snide comments that are laced in their email updates are going to help in negotiations. Instead of attempting to build bridges, they just built walls.

Good job. Now go get some media training.

While I wouldn't have couched things quite as colorfully as you did, I tend to agree with you generally. MEC's should be very careful about what they say and how they say it in the press, especially in issues involving contract talks. Pulling out all the stops in the first public message of a new campaign is a dangerous tactic...the size of the salvo should match the size of the target.

In our contract negotiations process the past 3+ years at ExpressJet, we were always very careful with our message (especially given the audience) and we also were very careful never to turn it into a personal pissing match. That gets both sides no where fast and it was something. By the way, I say "we" because I had a fairly involved role in our negotiations process so that should help give some understanding as to where I am coming from with my comments in this post.

Of course...there is a time and a place for everything I suppose but given what I know about Airtran and Joe Leonard and its CBA, etc, I'm not quite sure that invoking memories of Frank Lorenzo was really all that apropos, but then again, I'm not an Airtran pilot so I'm probably not the best person to comment on that quote and say if it was warranted/justified or not. Just seems somewhat counterproductive to shoot that kind of a shot at the outset of a negotiations process in my opinion.

-Neal

 

[TexaSWA]

Another thought, Lowecur would you please tout Spirit to any friends you have in the investment world?

Are you FCUKing kidding me. This guy is about 0 for 10. Tell you what, Ive got some stock in a bridge in Arizona to sell you. When California falls off into the Pacific you can write your own ticket.

 

[Ty Webb]

Just seems somewhat counterproductive to shoot that kind of a shot at the outset of a negotiations process in my opinion.

-Neal

Actually, the Company started this crap over 6 months ago . . . asking for a 12% reduction in pilot costs, which they apparently just pulled out of thin air, because when the Union asked where those numbers came from, they didn't even have an answer . . . . no data to support those numbers . . . . basically, they wanted to start "in the basement" and the Union wanted to start "in the attic" and hopefully, we will meet in the "living room".

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Actually, the Company started this crap over 6 months ago . . . asking for a 12% reduction in pilot costs, which they apparently just pulled out of thin air, because when the Union asked where those numbers came from, they didn't even have an answer . . . . no data to support those numbers . . . . basically, they wanted to start "in the basement" and the Union wanted to start "in the attic" and hopefully, we will meet in the "living room".

Yea, like I said, not being an AAI pilot makes it hard for me to accurately comment on your process. That said, the NPA could have made a statement not much different than what you said above referencing the query on where the 12% came from, etc. Then again, I am sure the AJC got everything just perfectly accurate when it picked out its sound bites from the phone interview. Good luck guys! I think you've got a great operation and a great contract.

-Neal