Not Paying Union Dues

[paulsalem]

bullsh!t. I did one for RAH and had friends that did them at ASA and Comair. They're plenty out there, you've just got to look.

You don't have to be in the union, but you have to pay the same dues in the form of a fee. After all, you're acting on your principles and refusing to join the evil union yet you are directly benefitting from the union's collective bargaining on your behalf. And just in case you didn't know...aviation is not "every other industry out there". Flight crews are labor not management...and that is a very important distinction to make when talking compensation.

Easy boiler,

Read that sentence again.



Notice I sad you can’t get an internship FLYING 121 for the summer. You can get one working for RAH, but I doubt you flew the line. Basically meaning that you have an “IN” at RAH, but really carries to weight outside of the company, because it didn’t help your logbook at all.

 

[BoilerUP]

Notice I sad you can’t get an internship FLYING 121 for the summer. You can get one working for RAH, but I doubt you flew the line. Basically meaning that you have an “IN” at RAH, but really carries to weight outside of the company, because it didn’t help your logbook at all.

As far as I know, you can't get a flying internship with any 121 carrier...

And oh yeah, fat bunch of good it did me - Rosa left and I never got an interview with RAH. Wish I'd have flight instructed more instead that summer, might have gotten hired by somebody earlier...

 

[paulsalem]

As far as I know, you can't get a flying internship with any 121 carrier...

Yea that was the point I was making.

 

[TWA Dude]

At all ALPA properties that have an 'Agency Shop' provision (all the majors and most regionals) the airline can not hire you if you are in bad standing with ALPA.

Don't know where you heard that from and I know it to be incorrect. I personally know ex-TWA guys who went into bad standing with ALPA and subsequently got hired by AWA, ATA, CAL, FDX and several regionals. There's no questions about union membership on any apps or during interviews.

 

[TWA Dude]

Whatever happened to "Free Association"? Isn't that part of what this country was founded on? Yet we are FORCED to pay for a union. Seems like a good case for the new supreme court, I think the way it is made up we could Finally win.

It's called the Railway Labor Act (amended to include the airline industry) and has been in effect since 1926. The Supreme Court won't be interested.

 

[PCL_128]

Paulsalem's profile:

Curr Position: Regional F/O
Total Time: 1,200

Enough said. He'll learn the hard way eventually.

 

[paulsalem]

Paulsalem's profile:

Curr Position: Regional F/O
Total Time: 1,200

Enough said. He'll learn the hard way eventually.

I sure hope not!

• I hope I never reach the point where I believe having a job is a right, not a privilege.
• I hope I never think the owner of the company is evil because he is trying to make money.
• I hope I never stop believing in fighting my own battles.
• I hope I don’t believe that I deserve a promotion and a pay raise because of my years of service with a company.
• I hope I never endlessly complain about a company and an industry, but yet never leave.
• I hope I never believe in “screwing the company”
• I hope I never call in sick when I’m healthy.
• I hope I never have this outlook on capitalism

Let's not forget...

One of the dark truths at the heart of free-market capitalism: the unblinking willingness of those in power to crush--physically and spiritually--those who work.

The only I came to an airline is to build time. I chose to apply to the airline I did because they have a base nearby. I am very close to getting a corporate gig, that will most likely be my job for life (if I have anything to say about it) and I’ll never have to be in a union again.

But you are right, I am young and inexperienced in aviation. However I come from a family that has owned many successful small businesses. I do not look at things from the same standpoint as you do. I understand I can never get rich working for someone, and I have accepted that. I do understand what it means to be a good employee though.

The main problem I have with unions is this: A lot the pro union people I have met, are the same people that go out of their way to screw the company (not all of them though). That is wrong. That is what gets to me more than anything.

Now, the company I work for does violate the contract on a regular basis. The crew schedulers will attempt to bully the crewmembers into something that is against the contract. That makes me very mad.

ONCE AN AGREEMENT HAS BEEN MADE, BOTH PARTIES SHOULD ACT IN ACCORDANCE WITH THAT AGREEMENT.

And you know what, if one side doesn’t hold up their end, that is no excuse for the other group to ignore the agreement also

This goes for both sides. Why do pilots not hold up their end of the contract (example: not checking in with scheduling before and after a trip) and expect the company to do their part?

Bottom line is, if you don’t like the job quit.

But I guess only time will tell. PCL_128 PM me in 30 years, we'll see just how stubborn I am.

 

[PCL_128]

I sure hope not!

• I hope I never reach the point where I believe having a job is a right, not a privilege.
• I hope I never think the owner of the company is evil because he is trying to make money.
• I hope I never stop believing in fighting my own battles.
• I hope I don’t believe that I deserve a promotion and a pay raise because of my years of service with a company.
• I hope I never endlessly complain about a company and an industry, but yet never leave.
• I hope I never believe in “screwing the company”
• I hope I never call in sick when I’m healthy.
• I hope I never have this outlook on capitalism

I'm sure I would have given that same response when I was a brand new FO. I was as anti-union as they come, but I quickly learned. Simple platitudes such as "if you don't like it then quit" sound nice and catchy as Rush Limbaugh utters them, but they don't hold up to the scrutiny of the real world. Sorry, but life (and business) just aren't like that. I'm sure management would like you to continue believing it, though. Remember this, however: management thinks of you as nothing but a disposable commodity.

The main problem I have with unions is this: A lot the pro union people I have met, are the same people that go out of their way to screw the company (not all of them though). That is wrong. That is what gets to me more than anything.

Some of them do fit this mold, but most do not. I certainly don't fit into this category. I do everything I can to save the company money. Wasting company resources is only self-defeating in the end, and I've never known any ALPA rep that advocates "screwing" the company.

ONCE AN AGREEMENT HAS BEEN MADE, BOTH PARTIES SHOULD ACT IN ACCORDANCE WITH THAT AGREEMENT.

Now you're starting to get it! Yes, an agreement should be an agreement. In the real world, however, management will always do everything in their power to circumvent that agreement and to screw you over at every possible opportunity.

And you know what, if one side doesn’t hold up their end, that is no excuse for the other group to ignore the agreement also

I agree! And I don't know any other union reps that would disagree either! ALPA always tells pilots to stick to the contract. We will uphold our side of the agreement. When management doesn't, then we'll grieve it and work within the system.

But I guess only time will tell. PCL_128 PM me in 30 years, we'll see just how stubborn I am.

30 years? It only took me about 6 months, my friend. I have no doubt that you'll come around.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I sure hope not!

• I hope I never reach the point where I believe having a job is a right, not a privilege.
• I hope I never think the owner of the company is evil because he is trying to make money.
• I hope I never stop believing in fighting my own battles.
• I hope I don’t believe that I deserve a promotion and a pay raise because of my years of service with a company.
• I hope I never endlessly complain about a company and an industry, but yet never leave.
• I hope I never believe in “screwing the company”
• I hope I never call in sick when I’m healthy.
• I hope I never have this outlook on capitalism

The only I came to an airline is to build time. I chose to apply to the airline I did because they have a base nearby. I am very close to getting a corporate gig, that will most likely be my job for life (if I have anything to say about it) and I’ll never have to be in a union again.

But you are right, I am young and inexperienced in aviation. However I come from a family that has owned many successful small businesses. I do not look at things from the same standpoint as you do. I understand I can never get rich working for someone, and I have accepted that. I do understand what it means to be a good employee though.

The main problem I have with unions is this: A lot the pro union people I have met, are the same people that go out of their way to screw the company (not all of them though). That is wrong. That is what gets to me more than anything.

Now, the company I work for does violate the contract on a regular basis. The crew schedulers will attempt to bully the crewmembers into something that is against the contract. That makes me very mad.

ONCE AN AGREEMENT HAS BEEN MADE, BOTH PARTIES SHOULD ACT IN ACCORDANCE WITH THAT AGREEMENT.

And you know what, if one side doesn’t hold up their end, that is no excuse for the other group to ignore the agreement also

This goes for both sides. Why do pilots not hold up their end of the contract (example: not checking in with scheduling before and after a trip) and expect the company to do their part?

Bottom line is, if you don’t like the job quit.

But I guess only time will tell. PCL_128 PM me in 30 years, we'll see just how stubborn I am.

awwww how cute.......

paulsalem... what do you think of a company and corporate executive team that takes away a man's retirement or pension, after he has worked 20+ years? And how do you expect that man to feel about his employer?

I hope to own a small business one day too.. but being a labor is nothing bad. In fact small business owners need airline pilots and other employees to fly the NAS.

If you want to come to the airline business, build time and leave that is your right. But you can thank union volunteers in part for making your usage possible.

Your black and white opinion is a bit snobbish and that is your right too. We have been hammered for the last five years, so you'll excuse the cynicism as we have given 30% pay cuts and our pension only to see the "small business owners" pat themselves on the back and give themselves a bonus.....

 

[paulsalem]

management thinks of you as nothing but a disposable commodity.

My grandfather (very successful business owner, who started with literally nothing) always said that everyone is replaceable.

All it takes is 6 weeks of training to replace me.

Although with the hit Riddle took last week, it may get a bit tougher.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

My grandfather (very successful business owner, who started with literally nothing) always said that everyone is replaceable.
.

Are you proud of that?

 

[Gr82Aviate]

My grandfather (very successful business owner, who started with literally nothing) always said that everyone is replaceable.

All it takes is 6 weeks of training to replace me.

Although with the hit Riddle took last week, it may get a bit tougher.

I guess that's where we're different...My grandfathter(also a very successful business owner) didn't believe in treating his employees like disposable commodities!!! He treated them like one of the family, and in turn they were loyal and the company prospered! Your grandfathers attitude of treating people as dispoable, shows in your "you can leave" instead of wanting to make the job a better place to be employed. Might want to try improving things for others instead of just killing time until you get enought experience to get on with your friends of the family corporate flying job!!

 

[paulsalem]

Are you proud of that?

That goes for everyone, including the boss.

Should have clarified. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[paulsalem]

Might want to try improving things for others instead of just killing time until you get enought experience to get on with your friends of the family corporate flying job!!

I do, I bend over backwards to help the company whenever they call.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

I do, I bend over backwards to help the company whenever they call.

I never had any doubt about you bending over for the company...I meant supporting your FELLOW PILOTS! Not the management; who, like your grandfather, consider you yesterdays expendable trash!!

 

[HelloNewman]

You don't have to pay if you were there before the union came on property. If it was after, you are screwed. I feel your pain.

If this is really true I think I have just died and gone to heaven!! It's a win win situation. Worst case scenario the union comes on property and I don't have to join nor pay dues. Thats freakin sweet.

 

[paulsalem]

I never had any doubt about you bending over for the company...I meant supporting your FELLOW PILOTS! Not the management; who, like your grandfather, consider you yesterdays expendable trash!!

That's the point, everyone is expendable. And anyone who thinks they're not is sadly mistaken. Even Microsoft will roll right along when Bill Gates retires next year.

How hard is it to replace a CP? CEOs get changed out all the time at large corporations, and the sky doesn't fall.

 

[GogglesPisano]

If this is really true I think I have just died and gone to heaven!! It's a win win situation. Worst case scenario the union comes on property and I don't have to join nor pay dues. Thats freakin sweet.

Then when the union negitiates a better contract at your airline, I hope you'll gladly demur on accepting any increase in compensation/QOL.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

!!

That's the point, everyone is expendable. And anyone who thinks they're not is sadly mistaken. Even Microsoft will roll right along when Bill Gates retires next year.

How hard is it to replace a CP? CEOs get changed out all the time at large corporations, and the sky doesn't fall.

No, the point is that companies don't have to treat their employees like disposables...Employers who treat their employees well are rewarded with loyal workers that will go out of their way to make things run well at that company!

 

[merlindrvr88]

Dummy

Yes it has happened. Were you planning on not paying your dues?

Only spineless, backstabbing, punk*ss, b*tchs try to weasel their way out of paying their share for the very association that provides for them.

If I was there before the useless union, which you were not!!! I don't have to pay sh$T. I did not, and was glad about it. ALPO sucks and so do you.

 

[merlindrvr88]

When?

Then when the union negitiates a better contract at your airline, I hope you'll gladly demur on accepting any increase in compensation/QOL.

Name the last time that happened?????

 

[PCL_128]

Name the last time that happened?????

You can't possibly be that dense. FedEx just signed an excellent contract with the help of ALPA. UPS just signed a great contract also with representation provided by the IPA with assistance from ALPA. That's two new contracts signed within the last 6 months that were vast improvements over the previous CBAs. Does that answer your question, smart guy?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

There are too many "professional" pilots that expect the profession to serve them.... The mentality of "how can I make this profession better" doesn't exist in thier minds....

 

[CopilotDoug]

You can't possibly be that dense. FedEx just signed an excellent contract with the help of ALPA. UPS just signed a great contract also with representation provided by the IPA with assistance from ALPA. That's two new contracts signed within the last 6 months that were vast improvements over the previous CBAs. Does that answer your question, smart guy?

While that's all fine and well for UPS and FedEx (who couldn't be more different than the airlines), what about the Regionals/majors where the Majority of airline pilots are going to be spending their careers? The fact of the matter is that ALPA is not as influential as they'd have you believe. It is my contention that ALPA is nothing more than a greedy business in it for the money. Their dues sytem should be modified so that pilots only have to pay dues if they receive a pay raise. No raise, tough sh!t ALPA.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

While that's all fine and well for UPS and FedEx (who couldn't be more different than the airlines), what about the Regionals/majors where the Majority of airline pilots are going to be spending their careers? The fact of the matter is that ALPA is not as influential as they'd have you believe. It is my contention that ALPA is nothing more than a greedy business in it for the money. Their dues sytem should be modified so that pilots only have to pay dues if they receive a pay raise. No raise, tough sh!t ALPA.

have you considered your expectations of what ALPA is, is not realisitic?

What did you think of the ALPA negotiated UAL2000 and DAL2001 contracts?

Your last comments about dues is like civil taxes for Police and Fire. As crime and fire plaque your town, you state.. until you get this crime and fire under control we aren't going to give you operating cash....

If ALPA, specifically is a greedy business, where is all of their money going? (if you are determined to say salaries then plaese do a search on this message board and get informed before you do.... education is a good thing.)

 

[GogglesPisano]

Name the last time that happened?????

The latest FedEx, SWA, and UPS contracts. World got a pay raise, too (after a strike.)

 

[CopilotDoug]

have you considered your expectations of what ALPA is, is not realisitic?

What did you think of the ALPA negotiated UAL2000 and DAL2001 contracts?

If your going to credit those contracts to ALPA you better also credit the aftermath to ALPA as well. ALPA's "success" at an airline is tied to the financial success of said airline, nothing more, nothing less (see FedEx, UPS, SWA ((which also happens to be SWAPA)) )

Your last comments about dues is like civil taxes for Police and Fire. As crime and fire plaque your town, you state.. until you get this crime and fire under control we aren't going to give you operating cash....

The reason for ALPA being born was Safety. That issue has been addressed, and continual refinements are being made. Tell me what "Crimes and Fires" are plaguing airlines today that necessitate ALPA's existence? Skywest doesn't seem to need ALPA and they're doing pretty well.

If ALPA, specifically is a greedy business, where is all of their money going? (if you are determined to say salaries then plaese do a search on this message board and get informed before you do.... education is a good thing.)

Well Martha Stewart, I know you're going to tell me it's NOT going to salaries. It's probably going to the ALPA stickers and Mousepads which are being handed out at groundschools. I'd like you to justify why Woerth receives over half a million dollars in annual compensation? Where does that salary money come from again?

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA's "success" at an airline is tied to the financial success of said airline)

Sorry, but I've gotta call bull$hit on that one. Do you really think that the pilots of DAL and UAL would have received such vast improvements in pay and benefits in contract '00 and '01 if it weren't for ALPA. Do you think UAL an DAL management would have simply given it to them out of the goodness of their hearts (hint: they don't have any)? If it weren't for ALPA fighting for the pilots at those airlines, then the billions in profits wouldn't have ever filtered down to the employees. It would have gone into even bigger bonuses for the executives, stock buy-back plans, more consultants to dream up faulty merger plans, etc... Management will never give you anything unless you fight for it, no matter how much financial success the company is enjoying.

The reason for ALPA being born was Safety. That issue has been addressed, and continual refinements are being made. Tell me what "Crimes and Fires" are plaguing airlines today that necessitate ALPA's existence?

Are you even a pilot? Pilot pushing is alive and well in this industry. I represent pilots every week that management has tried to pressure into flying unsafe airplanes, flying fatigued, flying sick, etc... Without ALPA representation and protection, pilots would still be getting fired for these things. The reason it doesn't happen on a large scale at Skywest is because management is extremely motivated to keep ALPA off of the property. They know that they'll never be able to get away with their 1% pay raises after a union shows up.

I'd like you to justify why Woerth receives over half a million dollars in annual compensation?

Get a clue. Captain Woerth never received a salary that even approached that much money. His salary was approximately $350k. The rest of the money you see listed on the anti-union sites comes from expenses. In other words, they're counting his meals, hotel rooms, taxi rides, etc... as income. How much more would your salary be if I included all of your hotel stays, training expenses, etc... in the mix? Just your benefits add an additional 30% on top of your salary. Do you consider that to be income? I didn't think so.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Sorry, but I've gotta call bull$hit on that one.

And how many industry leading contracts since then has ALPA wrestled out of management? What are ALPA's thoughts on the record setting givebacks?

Are you even a pilot? Pilot pushing is alive and well in this industry. I represent pilots every week that management has tried to pressure into flying unsafe airplanes, flying fatigued, flying sick, etc... Without ALPA representation and protection, pilots would still be getting fired for these things.

I've seen, up-close, 4 cases of ALPA style representation which I believe to be indicative of ALPA representation across the board. I need no further proof that ALPA is a bloated and inefficient union. And in one of those cases, resolution was found in the form of an AOPA attorney because the ALPA attorney "didn't have the time."

The reason it doesn't happen on a large scale at Skywest is because management is extremely motivated to keep ALPA off of the property. They know that they'll never be able to get away with their 1% pay raises after a union shows up.

I think the pilots are are the ones motivated to keep ALPA off property. And wisely so.

Get a clue. Captain Woerth never received a salary that even approached that much money. His salary was approximately $350k. The rest of the money you see listed on the anti-union sites comes from expenses. In other words, they're counting his meals, hotel rooms, taxi rides, etc... as income. How much more would your salary be if I included all of your hotel stays, training expenses, etc... in the mix? Just your benefits add an additional 30% on top of your salary. Do you consider that to be income? I didn't think so.

Did you read what I said? I used the term COMPENSATION and not SALARY for the very reasons you pointed out. My salary would be a whole lot more than 30 extra percent if I received the expenses he did. After all, he's sticking up for the pilots. I bet he stays in Super 8 motels, eats Ramen noodles at every meal, and takes the taxi cab with the really bad transmission too, just so he can stay in touch with the real pilot's lifestyle. I can't believe you'd elect such a pompous and pretentious a$$hole like him who couldn't be further out of touch with the reality of a pilot's lifestyle. You keep drinking that ALPA kool-aid, further sweetened by the same old B.S. feel good rhetoric.

 

[PCL_128]

I don't know why I even waste my time talking with such morons.