Norwegian Air vs ALPA

[KarmaPolice]

It is essential to understand that the price of anything in a "free market" is unrelated to the cost of production. An airline will set up a ticket price structure that attempts to maximize the revenue generated by each flight. They may make or lose money, but the goal is for the system to generate as much revenue as possible. Ticket prices are unaffected by how much the pilots make. The airlines will not lower ticket prices if the airlines are allowed to use half price pilots. They will just make higher profits. This is true across all industries. Did the price for car and trucks go down when they started making them with brutally repressed cheap labor in Mexico? No, but profits went up.

It is not ALPA vs customers. The customers will pay the same prices. It is not ALPA pilots vs NA pilots. It is the 1% vs the 99% like it is everywhere else.

As a regional pilot I have to wonder why ALPA is so upset about this now and not back when they created the regional airline system (which is massive compared to the NA threat) that is full of half price pilots, mechanics, FA's, ramp workers, etc. When you look at the good profits at some major airlines or worry about the NA threat, don't forget about the tens of thousands of people already working at half price at the regionals.

Scott

Odd to see someone with some smarts posting on FI.

BUT, just because ALPA screwed us with RJs, doesn't necessarily mean they want to screw us with 787s too. In addition, the threat is to a different group of pilots than RJs were. Those 787s will be competing with widebody international flying, so the people going under the bus will be all of us this time, not just the junior people on "regional" routes that "Can't support a mainline aircraft". *barf*

If you don't know, widebody pilots willing to fight for low end scope are a rarity. Look at how easily DAL's last contract passed, and the pay raises weren't even that good (compared to 2004 wages). "If it doesn't affect me, why do I care" attitudes prevail.


As for what others have posted about a pilot shortage saving us from NAI... The RJ revolution happened just like this is starting, hence the "camel's nose" metaphors. Yes there is a pilot shortage, but only for the lowest paying jobs. There are more than enough pilots willing to work at NAI wages to get the airline started, and more pilots can be made, especially as other less competitive airlines shrink.

Since the industrial revolution, market forces have NEVER benefited laborers, EVER, because businessmen make the markets.

Sadly, our only hope is our government stepping in via legislation to save us from what this is, pure global free market capitalism coming with a pay cut.

And for those of you who think that since you fly at a domestic only carrier, this won't affect you, think again. The last thing any pilot needs is less options for Domestic US pilots.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Wow. Looks like pilot shortages are taking care of many problems. You do know Norweigen lost $122 million last quarter, right? The model of super expensive 787s flying lower fare customers from Norway to Florida and JFK doesn't seem to be catching on yet. Congress will look into this and most likely see the ridiculousness of it's hiring practices. But try to keep your emotions in check Wave.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Have you ever read "A People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn? If not, give it a shot. Not saying you'll be joining the "occupy wall street gang" or anything, but the book might alter your viewpoints a bit on this issue.

 

[PCL_128]

Very much agree with gutshot

And it's not just a battle with alpa-

Every pilot in america needs to be active on this one regardless of representation

Agreed! So how much money has SWAPA kicked in to fight this battle? ALPA has dropped a cool million in just three weeks to fight this tooth and nail. Where's SWAPA?

 

[General Lee]

Have you ever read "A People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn? If not, give it a shot. Not saying you'll be joining the "occupy wall street gang" or anything, but the book might alter your viewpoints a bit on this issue.

I hear ya, but LCCs flying across the Atlantic have never done well. Gas is still way too high, in Europe especially. It's just too far. People who can afford to travel that far don't want an uncomfortable experience, regardless of the price. If so, Iceland Air, a supposed LCC, would be even bigger. Ryanair had thought about it, Easyjet has too, and high gas has kept them from pulling the trigger.

I still thing the "structure" of NAI is ridiculous, and that needs to be addressed by Congress. And I'm sure the pilots of Norweigen based on the 737 in Europe aren't very happy about the NAI scheme, and they almost struck over it last year. The current plan for NAI doesn't look great.

Thanks for the book suggestion, but I think I understand this situation just fine.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[typhoonpilot]

The Norwegian Air business model to bring in crews at half the price of legacy carriers for transatlantic service tees up the Walmart model for pilot pay vs ALPA (We fight for a decent wage for our pilots) battle.

Looks like you battle millions of customers looking for lower fares vs ALPA defending thousands of pilots decent pay rate.

Is this another Peoples Express flameout in the making or a legit challenge.

Thanks,

Check Six

Norwegian's captain pay is around $14,000/month. So you are saying that all North American carriers that fly across the Atlantic pay north of $28,000/month for similar size aircraft?

There might be rational arguments against Norwegian's business model, but you guys have got to stop following ALPA guidance like lemmings. Neither the public, nor Congress, are going to sympathize with your arguments about pay comparisons. ALPA's other argument about oversight is also very weak. Calling the Irish CAA weak as compared to the FAA is dubious at best. Valuejet crash anyone?





Typhoonpilot

 

[waveflyer]

Agreed! So how much money has SWAPA kicked in to fight this battle? ALPA has dropped a cool million in just three weeks to fight this tooth and nail. Where's SWAPA?

I don't know how to garner that info. I know I pay my dues, let my opinion be known and contribute double the request for the PAC-
Other than that, you'll have to ask somebody in Swapa leadership.
And even though you're trolling, a sincere thank you to ALPA, AND I WOULD LIKE INFO ON HOW I CAN DONATE TO SUPPORT THEIR EFFORTS ON THIS.

Do they have a mechanism in place so I can support specific issues and know my contribution isn't working against SWA? Because I would like to.
I will say this, I have it - and both my senators got $1000 donations, as well as a promise to my congressman the same if he publicly shows support for us on this- which he has yet to do.

I'm not getting into Swapa v alpa on this one man

 

[waveflyer]

Norwegian's captain pay is around $14,000/month. So you are saying that all North American carriers that fly across the Atlantic pay north of $28,000/month for similar size aircraft?

There might be rational arguments against Norwegian's business model, but you guys have got to stop following ALPA guidance like lemmings. Neither the public, nor Congress, are going to sympathize with your arguments about pay comparisons. ALPA's other argument about oversight is also very weak. Calling the Irish CAA weak as compared to the FAA is dubious at best. Valuejet crash anyone?

Typhoonpilot

Valujet??

That was out of left field

Check my earlier post. Current pay is more about the current market shortage for pilots. But since I bring home north of $14k gross/month as a SWA FO on a 737, I'd say it's not great, but ultimately not the argument being made.

Flag of convenience, picking and choosing which country's rules you'd like to operate by undermines the autonomy of every nation. America ought not support that if they don't want their own sovereignty challenged in the future.
This is about the creation of precedent conditions that will lead to further dilution and devalue of the airline career.

 

[waveflyer]

I hear ya, but LCCs flying across the Atlantic have never done well. Gas is still way too high, in Europe especially. It's just too far. People who can afford to travel that far don't want an uncomfortable experience, regardless of the price. If so, Iceland Air, a supposed LCC, would be even bigger. Ryanair had thought about it, Easyjet has too, and high gas has kept them from pulling the trigger.

I still thing the "structure" of NAI is ridiculous, and that needs to be addressed by Congress. And I'm sure the pilots of Norweigen based on the 737 in Europe aren't very happy about the NAI scheme, and they almost struck over it last year. The current plan for NAI doesn't look great.

Thanks for the book suggestion, but I think I understand this situation just fine.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Iow, "pilots lurking here--> this is no real threat. Return to your hockey and nba playoffs. Watch your kids baseball games, congress is on it, and between that and market forces, they're nothing you need to bother getting active about..."

I understand your opinion just fine, but the guy who works for the airline that just reloaded the regional whipsaw market with larger more efficient and profitable planes doesn't have that great of an opinion in my book.

At least scoot and bill seem to get this issue. (Probably bc it threatens wide body flying, but that's too troll for me get into and I don't care at the moment. They are on it, and that's the right position to take.)

Everyone needs to take the time to write letters to their representatives in both the union and federal govt. write one letter and cc it. For most, it's 20 minutes of your time

 

[waveflyer]

SWAPA pilots,

The NAI issue was front and center yesterday at a U.S. Senate Commerce committee aviation industry hearing where your SWAPA GAC was in attendance.

Among those making a case for labor was testimony from Mr. Ed Wytkind, President of the Transportation Trades Department (AFL-CIO). You can view a transcript of his testimony before the committee here.

We currently have 32 Senators signed on to oppose the NAI application to DOT for foreign carrier status. Your continued support for this effort is appreciated.

Recap: Action taken by SWAPA and the coalition

SWAPA has been a leader of the coalition in gathering signers to the group letters on both the House and Senate side. We have worked cooperatively with ALPA and other unions in a coordinated manner to cover all possible signers.
SWAPA also filed a commentary letter on the docket at the DOT. We sent letters and press releases urging the local agencies and mayors that signed the DOT docket in support of NAI to reconsider their positions in light of the number of SWAPA pilots in their respective areas. This effort garnered several interviews with local news outlets on the issue.
In terms of membership Calls to Action, we continue to circulate a SWAPA internal petition that is shared with DOT and other key decision makers on the Hill.
The next few weeks are critical as we work to defeat the NAI application at DOT. Stay tuned for further updates.

Governmental Affairs Committee

[email protected]
March, 17, 2014

I noticed there were segments opposing each of the airports proposing service-
What's the latest in the last two months-
Will they be operating those flights?

 

[SWA Bubba]

Agreed! So how much money has SWAPA kicked in to fight this battle? ALPA has dropped a cool million in just three weeks to fight this tooth and nail. Where's SWAPA?

SWAPA's there, right with ALPA and others fighting this. While I don't know exactly how much money we've "dropped" on the issue (unlike you, I'm actually a pilot and not just a union guy; I don't have the numbers at my fingertips), I do know that SWAPA is very active on the issue. They're reminding us every week to step up on this issue...

...Edit: just noticed Wave's explanation...

So I guess what I'm saying PCL, is that you can probably stop trying to make this yet another "SWAPA-sucks-because-they're-not-ALPA-and-everyone-knows-that-only-ALPA-is-worth-a-sh1t" issue. You know?

Bubba

 

[Scoot 11]

Iow, "pilots lurking here--> this is no real threat. Return to your hockey and nba playoffs. Watch your kids baseball games, congress is on it, and between that and market forces, they're nothing you need to bother getting active about..."

I understand your opinion just fine, but the guy who works for the airline that just reloaded the regional whipsaw market with larger more efficient and profitable planes doesn't have that great of an opinion in my book.

At least scoot and bill seem to get this issue. (Probably bc it threatens wide body flying, but that's too troll for me get into and I don't care at the moment. They are on it, and that's the right position to take.)

Everyone needs to take the time to write letters to their representatives in both the union and federal govt. write one letter and cc it. For most, it's 20 minutes of your time

Wave:
I don't say this often, but double kudos. You nailed it! Nice to see SW pilots taking an interest in this!

 

[bafanguy]

First time I've seen their ad specifically targeting US citizens and/or green card holders...but with a JAA license. I suppose there might be a few who fit that category but I don't know how many. They're just casting a wider net, perhaps ?

http://jobs.flightglobal.com/job/1401391784/b787-captains-and-first-officers-/

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Didn't get a chance to post before Wavey put up the proof, but SWAPA has been behind ALPAs campaign and in some cases used stronger language to the press.

They are in it.....

 

[waveflyer]

Everybody on the same page with this one. I'm sure alpa is doing much more, but I hope we are in lock step.

Now the follow through- please actually write the letters-
And post info about Norwegian air intl on your social media so your people know not to buy.
When they first announced, we saw crew members talking about flying on them, knowing none of the background. Then the FA union got on it. Apparently there's a pretty rich video put out by an ex SWA Fa that pretty well trashes us


(That job link is funny- maybe we should all apply and tell them to piss off after accepting a class date?)

 

[gutshotdraw]

Iow, "pilots lurking here--> this is no real threat. Return to your hockey and nba playoffs. Watch your kids baseball games, congress is on it, and between that and market forces, they're nothing you need to bother getting active about..."

You forgot "these aren't the 'droids you're looking for" and "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain..."

I'm a fractional pilot far too old to move to the airline world but even I get why the Norwegian Air model is such a dangerous situation. Our union's PAC is on board with ALPA, SWAPA, and others in DC lobbying against NAI's application.

The threat is REAL on many levels beyond personal career considerations.