Norwegian Air vs ALPA

[check six]

The Norwegian Air business model to bring in crews at half the price of legacy carriers for transatlantic service tees up the Walmart model for pilot pay vs ALPA (We fight for a decent wage for our pilots) battle.

Looks like you battle millions of customers looking for lower fares vs ALPA defending thousands of pilots decent pay rate.

Is this another Peoples Express flameout in the making or a legit challenge.

Thanks,

Check Six

 

[gutshotdraw]

It's the camel's nose in the tent.

Forty years ago, 10's of thousands of American Merchantmen earned their living plying the oceans of the world. Today, despite there being HUNDREDS more vessels engaged in maritime commerce, only a few hundred Americans earn their living at sea.

It's called "Flag of Convenience" and Norwegian Air is a serious threat to bring the same career-crushing changes to commercial aviation.

 

[waveflyer]

Very much agree with gutshot

And it's not just a battle with alpa-

Every pilot in america needs to be active on this one regardless of representation

 

[General Lee]

I can see the "sham" in all of this, with a Norweigen Airline with an Irish certificate using Thai based pilots and FAs. But I honestly don't see enough pilots out there willing to fly a shiny new 787 for lower pay and benefits, compared to airlines back in their home countries. The World is short on pilots too, not only the US. There is not enough out there to support an airline like Norweigen International (Thai based, not Oslo or Gatwick). Those based in Oslo or London Gatwick are subject to those Countries' laws and healthcare requirements, which are fairly expensive.

Sure, there is a problem, and hopefully Congress will act on the pure ridiculousness of their structure, but I still think a lack of pilots will slow them way down. And long haul LCCs don't seem to do well between Europe and the US anyway.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

Yes, everyone. Listen to general lee. He has learned all the lessons the camel's nose in the tent has provided.

There is a worldwide shortage at the moment.
Which is why this model is good timing not bad. If they are patient enough, provide good enough wages to attract with shiny jets and quick seniority, the model takes hold-

Do not let any wage or current struggle for pilots distract from what this model is if let to grow to maturity.
The END of the airline career as we know it.

 

[General Lee]

Yes, everyone. Listen to general lee. He has learned all the lessons the camel's nose in the tent has provided.

There is a worldwide shortage at the moment.
Which is why this model is good timing not bad. If they are patient enough, provide good enough wages to attract with shiny jets and quick seniority, the model takes hold-

Do not let any wage or current struggle for pilots distract from what this model is if let to grow to maturity.
The END of the airline career as we know it.

Wow. Looks like pilot shortages are taking care of many problems. You do know Norweigen lost $122 million last quarter, right? The model of super expensive 787s flying lower fare customers from Norway to Florida and JFK doesn't seem to be catching on yet. Congress will look into this and most likely see the ridiculousness of it's hiring practices. But try to keep your emotions in check Wave.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

RJ's will NEVER do 50% of all domestic departures.

The more I see your posts on things that actually affect our industry, you are such a lapdog. Always talking sideways out of your mouth to devalue the industry.

Your message is one of apathy. Market forces will take care of this? Congress will act on its own?

To the lurkers, who do you believe?think this is worth a letter to your congressmen and union??

 

[Scoot 11]

RJ's will NEVER do 50% of all domestic departures.

The more I see your posts on things that actually affect our industry, you are such a lapdog. Always talking sideways out of your mouth to devalue the industry.

Your message is one of apathy. Market forces will take care of this? Congress will act on its own?

To the lurkers, who do you believe?think this is worth a letter to your congressmen and union??

Wave. You're spot on with this!
100% agree.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Norwegian Air Shuttle, the legit 737 operation IN Norway, by NORWEGIANS, is getting setup for a strike. It appears the Flight Attendant union doesn't like all the outsourcing being proposed at the spinoff Norwegian Air International.

Bjorn has bit off more than he can chew.....says anything to anyone to get this thing off the ground. Threatens Boeing, threatens the EU, threatens his pilots (who walked on him last year), this guy is a scumbag Seaborne lawyer who wants exactly what the cruise ship industry has become.

Call your Congressmen and Senators.....this is where it ends.

(Petition and info)

sos.alpa.org

 

[General Lee]

RJ's will NEVER do 50% of all domestic departures.

The more I see your posts on things that actually affect our industry, you are such a lapdog. Always talking sideways out of your mouth to devalue the industry.

Your message is one of apathy. Market forces will take care of this? Congress will act on its own?

To the lurkers, who do you believe?think this is worth a letter to your congressmen and union??

I never said it wasn't a problem and a letter to your Congressman is a good idea. We can tell the set up (Irish certificate, Norweigen base, Thai based crews) is "unfair", but there are plenty of interesting schemes around the World that don't go to the US, and there are interesting contracts for pilots via questionable agencies. Welcome to the real World. This ain't El Paso. Hopefully our Congress keeps their current form away from the US, but that doesn't mean they'll go away, they would just have to comply with local and Intl laws. You yourself need to stop getting so emotional.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[sstearns2]

It is essential to understand that the price of anything in a "free market" is unrelated to the cost of production. An airline will set up a ticket price structure that attempts to maximize the revenue generated by each flight. They may make or lose money, but the goal is for the system to generate as much revenue as possible. Ticket prices are unaffected by how much the pilots make. The airlines will not lower ticket prices if the airlines are allowed to use half price pilots. They will just make higher profits. This is true across all industries. Did the price for car and trucks go down when they started making them with brutally repressed cheap labor in Mexico? No, but profits went up.

It is not ALPA vs customers. The customers will pay the same prices. It is not ALPA pilots vs NA pilots. It is the 1% vs the 99% like it is everywhere else.

As a regional pilot I have to wonder why ALPA is so upset about this now and not back when they created the regional airline system (which is massive compared to the NA threat) that is full of half price pilots, mechanics, FA's, ramp workers, etc. When you look at the good profits at some major airlines or worry about the NA threat, don't forget about the tens of thousands of people already working at half price at the regionals.

Scott

 

[uba757]

Congress aint doing ********************, our entire political system has been on vacation for a decade and a half and that will not come to an end until major, major changes are made!

 

[flyboyike]

As a regional pilot I have to wonder why ALPA is so upset about this now and not back when they created the regional airline system (which is massive compared to the NA threat) that is full of half price pilots, mechanics, FA's, ramp workers, etc. When you look at the good profits at some major airlines or worry about the NA threat, don't forget about the tens of thousands of people already working at half price at the regionals.

Amen.

 

[freightdogfred]

They can't compete, they're not even flying the gamechanger

 

[johnsonrod]

Ryanair is quietly watching and waiting...

You can bet Ryanair is actively watching Norwegian and its results. If Norwegian can make some headway then Ryanair will look to LEGALLY expand out of its 30+ European bases (http://www.ryanair.com/en/destinations/routes/) once it can muster up a fleet of discarded 767s or older A330s cast aside by the growing Middle East or European legacies. Ryanair could use some of the bigger US airports with capacity - or it could use a strategy from its playbook and seek out other outlying airfields like Rockford, IL, Stewart/Newburgh (SWF), Atlantic City, Rickenbacker (LCK), and others. In Europe Ryanair is now moving into existing city-center airports in addition to outlying airports (change of strategy). It is only a matter of time for them to look at Transatlantic service because they need to maintain their growth rate to support their stock price and Europe is getting more and more saturated.... They can use Norwegian's initial success in filling Transatlantic 787s as rationale for moving to that type of service.

Norwegian is just a test case for Ryanair. And Ryanair can legally expand into the US unlike Norwegian. Ryanair has also been working to improve its product beyond the bare-bones product it is known for - they are actively attempting to improve their dismal image. So, watch Ryanair make its move if Norwegian continues to grow - or even if Norwegian is shut down due to political pressure. That's my prediction.

What will Lee Moak do when Ryanair sets its start date?