Norwegian Air vs ALPA

[check six]

The Norwegian Air business model to bring in crews at half the price of legacy carriers for transatlantic service tees up the Walmart model for pilot pay vs ALPA (We fight for a decent wage for our pilots) battle.

Looks like you battle millions of customers looking for lower fares vs ALPA defending thousands of pilots decent pay rate.

Is this another Peoples Express flameout in the making or a legit challenge.

Thanks,

Check Six

 

[gutshotdraw]

It's the camel's nose in the tent.

Forty years ago, 10's of thousands of American Merchantmen earned their living plying the oceans of the world. Today, despite there being HUNDREDS more vessels engaged in maritime commerce, only a few hundred Americans earn their living at sea.

It's called "Flag of Convenience" and Norwegian Air is a serious threat to bring the same career-crushing changes to commercial aviation.

 

[waveflyer]

Very much agree with gutshot

And it's not just a battle with alpa-

Every pilot in america needs to be active on this one regardless of representation

 

[General Lee]

I can see the "sham" in all of this, with a Norweigen Airline with an Irish certificate using Thai based pilots and FAs. But I honestly don't see enough pilots out there willing to fly a shiny new 787 for lower pay and benefits, compared to airlines back in their home countries. The World is short on pilots too, not only the US. There is not enough out there to support an airline like Norweigen International (Thai based, not Oslo or Gatwick). Those based in Oslo or London Gatwick are subject to those Countries' laws and healthcare requirements, which are fairly expensive.

Sure, there is a problem, and hopefully Congress will act on the pure ridiculousness of their structure, but I still think a lack of pilots will slow them way down. And long haul LCCs don't seem to do well between Europe and the US anyway.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

Yes, everyone. Listen to general lee. He has learned all the lessons the camel's nose in the tent has provided.

There is a worldwide shortage at the moment.
Which is why this model is good timing not bad. If they are patient enough, provide good enough wages to attract with shiny jets and quick seniority, the model takes hold-

Do not let any wage or current struggle for pilots distract from what this model is if let to grow to maturity.
The END of the airline career as we know it.

 

[General Lee]

Yes, everyone. Listen to general lee. He has learned all the lessons the camel's nose in the tent has provided.

There is a worldwide shortage at the moment.
Which is why this model is good timing not bad. If they are patient enough, provide good enough wages to attract with shiny jets and quick seniority, the model takes hold-

Do not let any wage or current struggle for pilots distract from what this model is if let to grow to maturity.
The END of the airline career as we know it.

Wow. Looks like pilot shortages are taking care of many problems. You do know Norweigen lost $122 million last quarter, right? The model of super expensive 787s flying lower fare customers from Norway to Florida and JFK doesn't seem to be catching on yet. Congress will look into this and most likely see the ridiculousness of it's hiring practices. But try to keep your emotions in check Wave.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

RJ's will NEVER do 50% of all domestic departures.

The more I see your posts on things that actually affect our industry, you are such a lapdog. Always talking sideways out of your mouth to devalue the industry.

Your message is one of apathy. Market forces will take care of this? Congress will act on its own?

To the lurkers, who do you believe?think this is worth a letter to your congressmen and union??

 

[Scoot 11]

RJ's will NEVER do 50% of all domestic departures.

The more I see your posts on things that actually affect our industry, you are such a lapdog. Always talking sideways out of your mouth to devalue the industry.

Your message is one of apathy. Market forces will take care of this? Congress will act on its own?

To the lurkers, who do you believe?think this is worth a letter to your congressmen and union??

Wave. You're spot on with this!
100% agree.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Norwegian Air Shuttle, the legit 737 operation IN Norway, by NORWEGIANS, is getting setup for a strike. It appears the Flight Attendant union doesn't like all the outsourcing being proposed at the spinoff Norwegian Air International.

Bjorn has bit off more than he can chew.....says anything to anyone to get this thing off the ground. Threatens Boeing, threatens the EU, threatens his pilots (who walked on him last year), this guy is a scumbag Seaborne lawyer who wants exactly what the cruise ship industry has become.

Call your Congressmen and Senators.....this is where it ends.

(Petition and info)

sos.alpa.org

 

[General Lee]

RJ's will NEVER do 50% of all domestic departures.

The more I see your posts on things that actually affect our industry, you are such a lapdog. Always talking sideways out of your mouth to devalue the industry.

Your message is one of apathy. Market forces will take care of this? Congress will act on its own?

To the lurkers, who do you believe?think this is worth a letter to your congressmen and union??

I never said it wasn't a problem and a letter to your Congressman is a good idea. We can tell the set up (Irish certificate, Norweigen base, Thai based crews) is "unfair", but there are plenty of interesting schemes around the World that don't go to the US, and there are interesting contracts for pilots via questionable agencies. Welcome to the real World. This ain't El Paso. Hopefully our Congress keeps their current form away from the US, but that doesn't mean they'll go away, they would just have to comply with local and Intl laws. You yourself need to stop getting so emotional.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[sstearns2]

It is essential to understand that the price of anything in a "free market" is unrelated to the cost of production. An airline will set up a ticket price structure that attempts to maximize the revenue generated by each flight. They may make or lose money, but the goal is for the system to generate as much revenue as possible. Ticket prices are unaffected by how much the pilots make. The airlines will not lower ticket prices if the airlines are allowed to use half price pilots. They will just make higher profits. This is true across all industries. Did the price for car and trucks go down when they started making them with brutally repressed cheap labor in Mexico? No, but profits went up.

It is not ALPA vs customers. The customers will pay the same prices. It is not ALPA pilots vs NA pilots. It is the 1% vs the 99% like it is everywhere else.

As a regional pilot I have to wonder why ALPA is so upset about this now and not back when they created the regional airline system (which is massive compared to the NA threat) that is full of half price pilots, mechanics, FA's, ramp workers, etc. When you look at the good profits at some major airlines or worry about the NA threat, don't forget about the tens of thousands of people already working at half price at the regionals.

Scott

 

[uba757]

Congress aint doing ********************, our entire political system has been on vacation for a decade and a half and that will not come to an end until major, major changes are made!

 

[flyboyike]

As a regional pilot I have to wonder why ALPA is so upset about this now and not back when they created the regional airline system (which is massive compared to the NA threat) that is full of half price pilots, mechanics, FA's, ramp workers, etc. When you look at the good profits at some major airlines or worry about the NA threat, don't forget about the tens of thousands of people already working at half price at the regionals.

Amen.

 

[freightdogfred]

They can't compete, they're not even flying the gamechanger

 

[johnsonrod]

Ryanair is quietly watching and waiting...

You can bet Ryanair is actively watching Norwegian and its results. If Norwegian can make some headway then Ryanair will look to LEGALLY expand out of its 30+ European bases (http://www.ryanair.com/en/destinations/routes/) once it can muster up a fleet of discarded 767s or older A330s cast aside by the growing Middle East or European legacies. Ryanair could use some of the bigger US airports with capacity - or it could use a strategy from its playbook and seek out other outlying airfields like Rockford, IL, Stewart/Newburgh (SWF), Atlantic City, Rickenbacker (LCK), and others. In Europe Ryanair is now moving into existing city-center airports in addition to outlying airports (change of strategy). It is only a matter of time for them to look at Transatlantic service because they need to maintain their growth rate to support their stock price and Europe is getting more and more saturated.... They can use Norwegian's initial success in filling Transatlantic 787s as rationale for moving to that type of service.

Norwegian is just a test case for Ryanair. And Ryanair can legally expand into the US unlike Norwegian. Ryanair has also been working to improve its product beyond the bare-bones product it is known for - they are actively attempting to improve their dismal image. So, watch Ryanair make its move if Norwegian continues to grow - or even if Norwegian is shut down due to political pressure. That's my prediction.

What will Lee Moak do when Ryanair sets its start date?

 

[KarmaPolice]

It is essential to understand that the price of anything in a "free market" is unrelated to the cost of production. An airline will set up a ticket price structure that attempts to maximize the revenue generated by each flight. They may make or lose money, but the goal is for the system to generate as much revenue as possible. Ticket prices are unaffected by how much the pilots make. The airlines will not lower ticket prices if the airlines are allowed to use half price pilots. They will just make higher profits. This is true across all industries. Did the price for car and trucks go down when they started making them with brutally repressed cheap labor in Mexico? No, but profits went up.

It is not ALPA vs customers. The customers will pay the same prices. It is not ALPA pilots vs NA pilots. It is the 1% vs the 99% like it is everywhere else.

As a regional pilot I have to wonder why ALPA is so upset about this now and not back when they created the regional airline system (which is massive compared to the NA threat) that is full of half price pilots, mechanics, FA's, ramp workers, etc. When you look at the good profits at some major airlines or worry about the NA threat, don't forget about the tens of thousands of people already working at half price at the regionals.

Scott

Odd to see someone with some smarts posting on FI.

BUT, just because ALPA screwed us with RJs, doesn't necessarily mean they want to screw us with 787s too. In addition, the threat is to a different group of pilots than RJs were. Those 787s will be competing with widebody international flying, so the people going under the bus will be all of us this time, not just the junior people on "regional" routes that "Can't support a mainline aircraft". *barf*

If you don't know, widebody pilots willing to fight for low end scope are a rarity. Look at how easily DAL's last contract passed, and the pay raises weren't even that good (compared to 2004 wages). "If it doesn't affect me, why do I care" attitudes prevail.


As for what others have posted about a pilot shortage saving us from NAI... The RJ revolution happened just like this is starting, hence the "camel's nose" metaphors. Yes there is a pilot shortage, but only for the lowest paying jobs. There are more than enough pilots willing to work at NAI wages to get the airline started, and more pilots can be made, especially as other less competitive airlines shrink.

Since the industrial revolution, market forces have NEVER benefited laborers, EVER, because businessmen make the markets.

Sadly, our only hope is our government stepping in via legislation to save us from what this is, pure global free market capitalism coming with a pay cut.

And for those of you who think that since you fly at a domestic only carrier, this won't affect you, think again. The last thing any pilot needs is less options for Domestic US pilots.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Wow. Looks like pilot shortages are taking care of many problems. You do know Norweigen lost $122 million last quarter, right? The model of super expensive 787s flying lower fare customers from Norway to Florida and JFK doesn't seem to be catching on yet. Congress will look into this and most likely see the ridiculousness of it's hiring practices. But try to keep your emotions in check Wave.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Have you ever read "A People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn? If not, give it a shot. Not saying you'll be joining the "occupy wall street gang" or anything, but the book might alter your viewpoints a bit on this issue.

 

[PCL_128]

Very much agree with gutshot

And it's not just a battle with alpa-

Every pilot in america needs to be active on this one regardless of representation

Agreed! So how much money has SWAPA kicked in to fight this battle? ALPA has dropped a cool million in just three weeks to fight this tooth and nail. Where's SWAPA?

 

[General Lee]

Have you ever read "A People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn? If not, give it a shot. Not saying you'll be joining the "occupy wall street gang" or anything, but the book might alter your viewpoints a bit on this issue.

I hear ya, but LCCs flying across the Atlantic have never done well. Gas is still way too high, in Europe especially. It's just too far. People who can afford to travel that far don't want an uncomfortable experience, regardless of the price. If so, Iceland Air, a supposed LCC, would be even bigger. Ryanair had thought about it, Easyjet has too, and high gas has kept them from pulling the trigger.

I still thing the "structure" of NAI is ridiculous, and that needs to be addressed by Congress. And I'm sure the pilots of Norweigen based on the 737 in Europe aren't very happy about the NAI scheme, and they almost struck over it last year. The current plan for NAI doesn't look great.

Thanks for the book suggestion, but I think I understand this situation just fine.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[typhoonpilot]

The Norwegian Air business model to bring in crews at half the price of legacy carriers for transatlantic service tees up the Walmart model for pilot pay vs ALPA (We fight for a decent wage for our pilots) battle.

Looks like you battle millions of customers looking for lower fares vs ALPA defending thousands of pilots decent pay rate.

Is this another Peoples Express flameout in the making or a legit challenge.

Thanks,

Check Six

Norwegian's captain pay is around $14,000/month. So you are saying that all North American carriers that fly across the Atlantic pay north of $28,000/month for similar size aircraft?

There might be rational arguments against Norwegian's business model, but you guys have got to stop following ALPA guidance like lemmings. Neither the public, nor Congress, are going to sympathize with your arguments about pay comparisons. ALPA's other argument about oversight is also very weak. Calling the Irish CAA weak as compared to the FAA is dubious at best. Valuejet crash anyone?





Typhoonpilot