Northwest to create a new regional airline

[COpilot]

DTW,

This is not 1998... In '98, gas was .80c a gallon, there was no Jetblue, Valujet(Airtran) was grounded, Southwest was not 460+ airplanes, our Compines where not Chap11 or on the verge of it, and G.W was not the Presedent, with a Republican Congress.

Your pilot Group would have stood by the MX strike, Your group would have said B.S!

I don't want to be able to come back onto this page in 8 weeks and tell you I told you so; but, we'll just have to wait and see? I just hope I can get my son through Dental school before its to late. Maybe I can move in with him when I'm old?

 

[FlyinScotsman]

DTW,

I disagree with you. I don't belive you are getting the true vision of your pilot group or any others.

By rule most of us on this website are the "rebels" of the profession, and will talk the big talk. (Picket, strike, blah, blah, blah) So alot of us are on the same page. The other 80% of the pilots groups think another way.

Truth is when it comes down to it, the majority of your pilot group and every other group, see example (UA, US, DL, CO, etc.) is looking out for just one person. Especially the top half of any given seniority list. And that top half of the seniority list will push, squeal, brun, and push the young (junior) pilot off the bridge to save his/her self.

If I'm NW management. I throw a bone to that demographic, and watch the blood letting to begin. Next thing you know (NEWCO) is a done deal, you've got ERJ190's all around DTW, MSP; half of your pilot group is still flying their A330's to Europe saying "Is'nt it sad that Bob lost his job flying the DC9, wonder what he'll do next, I'm going on break."

Look at the history, I bet you this is how it will unfold?

Well if that ain't the truth!!! No one in this industry is willing to fall on their swords for the greater good. I know it sounds good and it is fun to talk big, but in the end we are all human and we are going to do what we have to do to protect our families and lifestyle. It totally sucks but it is the truth. Good luck with "NewCo" guys hopefully you can get it staffed with furloughed NW people, but odds are that they will fill it with a bunch of newbies that will fly anything for pennies and be happy about it.

 

[DTW320]

Well if that ain't the truth!!! No one in this industry is willing to fall on their swords for the greater good. I know it sounds good and it is fun to talk big, but in the end we are all human and we are going to do what we have to do to protect our families and lifestyle. It totally sucks but it is the truth. Good luck with "NewCo" guys hopefully you can get it staffed with furloughed NW people, but odds are that they will fill it with a bunch of newbies that will fly anything for pennies and be happy about it.

So, what is your prediction? That we will agree to Newco though membership ratification of an agreement that includes it OR that it will be imposed by the company following a ruling by the judge allowing them to throw out the contract and that we will not strike when that happens?

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

I disagree. What you are saying is almost verbatum what I heard before the 1998 strike. "The wide body Capt's are NOT going to go on strike to get rid of the B-scale" etc,etc. What happened? 98% strike vote, 2 weeks walking circles, no more Bscale, NW management loses 1 Billion $ in an effort to avoid getting rid of bscale and giving the rest of the group a 3% raise. I think they were reminiscing about that when they gave us a 10.5% raise in 2002. There has never been a truer example of a management that will try to take a mile if you give them an inch. Like I've said before, most of the senior widebody CA's I know, ones that don't participate on webboards, feel very strongly that if Newco flies then outsourcing the widebody flying will be next.

Time will tell/a strike vote has not been taken yet/I could be wrong!

Most of the wide body Captains voted to strike because they weren't getting the snap back the Company promised.

 

[FlyinScotsman]

DTW320,

That is a good question. I don't know, what if you could get an agreement with the company that Newco would be staffed with furloughed guys and covered with an ALPA approved contract? Or some variation on that senario, would you still vote it down?If that doesn't happen the courts would let the company impose whatever they want on to the pilot group and the company would be able to do whatever they want to create Newco. At that point does the NW pilot group have the balls to strike? Based on past performance of other pilot groups you will take whatever the company gives you. I am not trying to say that your pilot group is weak, I think you guys would be more likely than any other to strike and bring NWA down, but do you as a pilot group really have the balls? Only God knows that answer and he ain't tellin.

 

[DTW320]

DTW320,

That is a good question. I don't know, what if you could get an agreement with the company that Newco would be staffed with furloughed guys and covered with an ALPA approved contract? Or some variation on that senario, would you still vote it down?If that doesn't happen the courts would let the company impose whatever they want on to the pilot group and the company would be able to do whatever they want to create Newco. At that point does the NW pilot group have the balls to strike? Based on past performance of other pilot groups you will take whatever the company gives you. I am not trying to say that your pilot group is weak, I think you guys would be more likely than any other to strike and bring NWA down, but do you as a pilot group really have the balls? Only God knows that answer and he ain't tellin.

It could probably be setup to be staffed with furloughed guys, the problem is that the furloughed guys we are talking about are the 1000+ DC9 pilots that would only be furloughed due to the creation of Newco. I mean, why stop there? Why not let them shutdown the whole company, create a new one and staff it 100% with all current NW pilots at a fraction of current pay and no benefits, like they propose at Newco?

but do you as a pilot group really have the balls? Only God knows that answer and he ain't tellin.

Fair enough....I agree with you there.

 

[DTW320]

Most of the wide body Captains voted to strike because they weren't getting the snap back the Company promised.

If you are referring to the snap-back from the 1993 concessionary agreement that happened in 1996. If you are referring to the 3% snap-UP, NWA tried to get out of that but we got that too after an arbitrator ruled against the company in 1997.....all happened before the 1998 strike.

 

[jws717]

This is it guys, ALPAs last stand if they cant prevent BS like this i have no more faith in them. I am already very disapointed. There needs to be a collective strike eventualy from all ALPA members to bring some strength back to the union.

 

[Snoop]

Wow....

This is all starting to sound frighteningly like the whole TSA-blojets debacle.....ALPA bailed on them too...Good luck....

 

[jetfo]

DTW,

I disagree with you. I don't belive you are getting the true vision of your pilot group or any others.

By rule most of us on this website are the "rebels" of the profession, and will talk the big talk. (Picket, strike, blah, blah, blah) So alot of us are on the same page. The other 80% of the pilots groups think another way.

Truth is when it comes down to it, the majority of your pilot group and every other group, see example (UA, US, DL, CO, etc.) is looking out for just one person. Especially the top half of any given seniority list. And that top half of the seniority list will push, squeal, brun, and push the young (junior) pilot off the bridge to save his/her self.

If I'm NW management. I throw a bone to that demographic, and watch the blood letting to begin. Next thing you know (NEWCO) is a done deal, you've got ERJ190's all around DTW, MSP; half of your pilot group is still flying their A330's to Europe saying "Is'nt it sad that Bob lost his job flying the DC9, wonder what he'll do next, I'm going on break."

Look at the history, I bet you this is how it will unfold?

That's exactly what will happen, this is a done deal unfortunately. The only question that remains is who will be flying the 70-110 seat aircraft. NWA furloughees, or others? And, will NWA do with Newco as US did with MidAtlantic?

 

[DTW320]

That's exactly what will happen, this is a done deal unfortunately. The only question that remains is who will be flying the 70-110 seat aircraft. NWA furloughees, or others? And, will NWA do with Newco as US did with MidAtlantic?

Pure speculation on your part. It's BECAUSE of what USAir (Cohen) did with MidAtlantic that it won't be allowed to happen here. Again I ask: Are we going to memrat an agreement that allows it OR are we not going to strike if it is imposed by the judge? It's gotta be one of those 2 options or it will not happen.

 

[A350]

DTW320:

The problem is that there isn't going to be much of a "negotiation."......and in the end you can walk and the result will either be like what has happened to AMFA on your property or a liquidation/rebirth with another certificate, no union, and well.....

Of course this is speculation. But why would Steenland and Cohen do anything different this time? It works.

A350

 

[AgDownUnder]

Newco is only a done deal in either of 2 scenarios:

1. NWAALPA agrees to it as part of a negotiated deal prior to the 1113c hearing(aint gonna happen).

2. The BK judge rules in favor of allowing NWA to toss the contract and NWA imposes conditions including Newco (Strike will follow resulting in a quick backing off by management at the insistance of the creditors committee/BK judge OR liquidation takes place....the former is preferable, but the latter is OK too versus allowing newco)

Absent one of those things happening newco will not happen because our current contract, which is still in full force until we agree to change it or the judge allows it to be voided, prohibits a Newco style operation via the scope clause.

I don't understand. How is Newco, a seperate corporate entity tied into current contracts and court filings?

 

[DTW320]

I don't understand. How is Newco, a seperate corporate entity tied into current contracts and court filings?

Simple. Our current contract forbids that type of outsourcing of NWA flying via the scope clause. The only way to change our contract is for us to agree to a new one that would allow Newco OR if the judge approves the company's 1113 request to void our contract and impose a new one. We can strike if that happens, not to mention the fact that potential lenders, without which NWA cannot come out of BK, will most likely require consensual agreed contracts with labor, not court imposed ones.

 

[AgDownUnder]

This is it guys, ALPAs last stand if they cant prevent BS like this i have no more faith in them. I am already very disapointed. There needs to be a collective strike eventualy from all ALPA members to bring some strength back to the union.

Heck, I had no faith in them 10 years ago.

 

[COpilot]

DTW,

It's pure speculation on your part just as much. (Granted you work there, and I work at one of your partners).

But because of what Cohen did at US, is why I'm betting he along with all of the Bk. Lawyers will be able to either one, get the Sr. pilots to sell the bottom half down the river through a negotiated contract, or two; shove it down your throats in front of the judge.

Again! I do not want to start a pissing contest with you. We will all know the answer to this soon enough. We can always come back to this thread in a few weeks. I am hoping for all of our sakes that I am the one who eats crow on this!

 

[DTW320]

DTW320:

The problem is that there isn't going to be much of a "negotiation."......and in the end you can walk and the result will either be like what has happened to AMFA on your property or a liquidation/rebirth with another certificate, no union, and well.....

Of course this is speculation. But why would Steenland and Cohen do anything different this time? It works.

A350

Like what happened to AMFA??? Tell me more about their secret plan to replace 5500 pilots or operate the airline without pilots. They very publicly spent 18 months preparing for the AMFA strike. Liquidation? Yeah, could happen if we strike. Do you think the creditors committee, who has 100's of millions riding on this and has the ability to demand the removal of management, and the judge will allow this management team to "demand" a highly questionable Newco plan faced with a credible strike threat? ALPA has already shown that they are willing to help, we've already voluntarily given over 40% of our pay. This management team is opportunistically overreaching and the creditors committee is growing increasingly aware of it (with help from our ALPA rep on that committee).

Time will tell.

 

[DTW320]

DTW,

It's pure speculation on your part just as much. (Granted you work there, and I work at one of your partners).

But because of what Cohen did at US, is why I'm betting he along with all of the Bk. Lawyers will be able to either one, get the Sr. pilots to sell the bottom half down the river through a negotiated contract, or two; shove it down your throats in front of the judge.

Again! I do not want to start a pissing contest with you. We will all know the answer to this soon enough. We can always come back to this thread in a few weeks. I am hoping for all of our sakes that I am the one who eats crow on this!

Cohen did not get a court imposed contract forced on ALPA at USAir. In fact, what pilot group in BK has had a contract imposed on them? That leaves the first option i.e. an agreement allowing it. Hey, I admit I don't know for sure how it would go but this is one fed-up group, senior or junior, that has the benefit of hindsight about Cohen that the USAir pilots did not have. Not to mention the guidance we have been recieving from the USAir MEC on the topic of Mr. Cohen.

 

[FN FAL]

They from what I have seen are not having trouble finding unemployed high pilots who want to work.

Yea, but Cloyd and his drinking buddy have to get pardoned first.

 

[michael707767]

I don't understand. How is Newco, a seperate corporate entity tied into current contracts and court filings?

and isn't NewCo going to be wholly owned by Northwest, so not really a seperate corporate entity?