Northwest to create a new regional airline

[DTW320]

That's exactly what will happen, this is a done deal unfortunately. The only question that remains is who will be flying the 70-110 seat aircraft. NWA furloughees, or others? And, will NWA do with Newco as US did with MidAtlantic?

Pure speculation on your part. It's BECAUSE of what USAir (Cohen) did with MidAtlantic that it won't be allowed to happen here. Again I ask: Are we going to memrat an agreement that allows it OR are we not going to strike if it is imposed by the judge? It's gotta be one of those 2 options or it will not happen.

 

[A350]

DTW320:

The problem is that there isn't going to be much of a "negotiation."......and in the end you can walk and the result will either be like what has happened to AMFA on your property or a liquidation/rebirth with another certificate, no union, and well.....

Of course this is speculation. But why would Steenland and Cohen do anything different this time? It works.

A350

 

[AgDownUnder]

Newco is only a done deal in either of 2 scenarios:

1. NWAALPA agrees to it as part of a negotiated deal prior to the 1113c hearing(aint gonna happen).

2. The BK judge rules in favor of allowing NWA to toss the contract and NWA imposes conditions including Newco (Strike will follow resulting in a quick backing off by management at the insistance of the creditors committee/BK judge OR liquidation takes place....the former is preferable, but the latter is OK too versus allowing newco)

Absent one of those things happening newco will not happen because our current contract, which is still in full force until we agree to change it or the judge allows it to be voided, prohibits a Newco style operation via the scope clause.

I don't understand. How is Newco, a seperate corporate entity tied into current contracts and court filings?

 

[DTW320]

I don't understand. How is Newco, a seperate corporate entity tied into current contracts and court filings?

Simple. Our current contract forbids that type of outsourcing of NWA flying via the scope clause. The only way to change our contract is for us to agree to a new one that would allow Newco OR if the judge approves the company's 1113 request to void our contract and impose a new one. We can strike if that happens, not to mention the fact that potential lenders, without which NWA cannot come out of BK, will most likely require consensual agreed contracts with labor, not court imposed ones.

 

[AgDownUnder]

This is it guys, ALPAs last stand if they cant prevent BS like this i have no more faith in them. I am already very disapointed. There needs to be a collective strike eventualy from all ALPA members to bring some strength back to the union.

Heck, I had no faith in them 10 years ago.

 

[COpilot]

DTW,

It's pure speculation on your part just as much. (Granted you work there, and I work at one of your partners).

But because of what Cohen did at US, is why I'm betting he along with all of the Bk. Lawyers will be able to either one, get the Sr. pilots to sell the bottom half down the river through a negotiated contract, or two; shove it down your throats in front of the judge.

Again! I do not want to start a pissing contest with you. We will all know the answer to this soon enough. We can always come back to this thread in a few weeks. I am hoping for all of our sakes that I am the one who eats crow on this!

 

[DTW320]

DTW320:

The problem is that there isn't going to be much of a "negotiation."......and in the end you can walk and the result will either be like what has happened to AMFA on your property or a liquidation/rebirth with another certificate, no union, and well.....

Of course this is speculation. But why would Steenland and Cohen do anything different this time? It works.

A350

Like what happened to AMFA??? Tell me more about their secret plan to replace 5500 pilots or operate the airline without pilots. They very publicly spent 18 months preparing for the AMFA strike. Liquidation? Yeah, could happen if we strike. Do you think the creditors committee, who has 100's of millions riding on this and has the ability to demand the removal of management, and the judge will allow this management team to "demand" a highly questionable Newco plan faced with a credible strike threat? ALPA has already shown that they are willing to help, we've already voluntarily given over 40% of our pay. This management team is opportunistically overreaching and the creditors committee is growing increasingly aware of it (with help from our ALPA rep on that committee).

Time will tell.

 

[DTW320]

DTW,

It's pure speculation on your part just as much. (Granted you work there, and I work at one of your partners).

But because of what Cohen did at US, is why I'm betting he along with all of the Bk. Lawyers will be able to either one, get the Sr. pilots to sell the bottom half down the river through a negotiated contract, or two; shove it down your throats in front of the judge.

Again! I do not want to start a pissing contest with you. We will all know the answer to this soon enough. We can always come back to this thread in a few weeks. I am hoping for all of our sakes that I am the one who eats crow on this!

Cohen did not get a court imposed contract forced on ALPA at USAir. In fact, what pilot group in BK has had a contract imposed on them? That leaves the first option i.e. an agreement allowing it. Hey, I admit I don't know for sure how it would go but this is one fed-up group, senior or junior, that has the benefit of hindsight about Cohen that the USAir pilots did not have. Not to mention the guidance we have been recieving from the USAir MEC on the topic of Mr. Cohen.

 

[FN FAL]

They from what I have seen are not having trouble finding unemployed high pilots who want to work.

Yea, but Cloyd and his drinking buddy have to get pardoned first.

 

[michael707767]

I don't understand. How is Newco, a seperate corporate entity tied into current contracts and court filings?

and isn't NewCo going to be wholly owned by Northwest, so not really a seperate corporate entity?

 

[YourPilotFriend]

The bottom line is everyone that is junior at NWA, 9E, and XJ should be looking at other options. Any which way you look at it, if you are at the bottom of the list, you are going to get screwed.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

and isn't NewCo going to be wholly owned by Northwest, so not really a seperate corporate entity?

It's extremely likely that once the scope contract is null and void, a RFP on NewCo flying will be given out. Thats why i keep saying it's likely that one of the regional partners will become newco. Especially if XJ takes the imposed rate cuts which would allow the E190 to be flown at 50% of current market rates.

 

[Draginass]

The question is if NW ALPA will bend over and take it, or tell Stenland and the stockholders to cram their company up where the sun don't shine.

My guess? They'll bend over like a real ALPA union.

 

[320AV8R]

The question is if NW ALPA will bend over and take it, or tell Stenland and the stockholders to cram their company up where the sun don't shine.

My guess? They'll bend over like a real ALPA union.

I'm not so sure. We had a 2 week strike in 1998.

Also, everyone has seen NWA's dealings with AMFA. ALPA should expect nothing different. If NEWCO is imposed under the current terms, a strike will happen.

320AV8R

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Cobra Airlines anyone?

 

[General Lee]

and isn't NewCo going to be wholly owned by Northwest, so not really a seperate corporate entity?

Wasn't MDA a wholly owned entity before they sold it to Chautaqua?


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[320AV8R]

The MEC also passed a resolution directing the MEC Chairman to communicate to NWA management, the NWA BOD, and the NWA Unsecured Creditors Committee that NWA management’s proposals for Newco and the many other Scope and job protection changes management has proposed are absolutely unacceptable to NWA pilots. The resolution states that if the Bankruptcy Court approves the rejection of the pilot agreement and the Company imposes terms and conditions which include those items, the company should expect a strike by the Northwest pilot group.

'NUFF SAID,

320AV8R

 

[NuGuy]

NWA MEC RESOLUTION #06-1
SUBJECT: Northwest Airlines Pilots' Objection to "NEWCO" and Scope
Changes

WHEREAS Northwest Airlines has proposed a new "stand-alone"
subsidiary "NEWCO" to perform flying of aircraft in the 77-100 seat
range, and also outsource all flying below 77 seats, and

WHEREAS this new entity would transfer jobs and flying to a
subsidiary that could then be sold off with a resulting de facto
transfer of jobs away from Northwest Airlines, and

WHEREAS to date, NWA management has refused to engage in meaningful
discussions to substitute the "NSTAR" concept (51-100 seat
aircraft) for their "NEWCO" concept and other outsourcing
proposals, even though "NSTAR" will provide competitive pilot costs
to Northwest Airlines while also providing enhanced control of
operations and service delivery,

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED the NWA ALPA MEC directs the Master
Executive Council Chairman to communicate to Northwest Airlines
management, the Northwest Airlines Board of Directors, and the
Northwest Airlines Unsecured Creditors Committee that: 1) the
proposed outsourcing of NWA pilot jobs to the stand-alone NWA
subsidiary "NEWCO" and other proposals attacking Northwest Pilot
job security (e.g., fragmentation, wet-leasing, alter ego, etc.)
are absolutely unacceptable to the pilots of Northwest Airlines
Inc., and 2) if the Bankruptcy Court approves rejection of the
Pilot Agreement and the Company imposes terms and conditions which
include these proposals, the Company should expect a strike by the
Northwest pilot group.


NWA ALPA MEANS BUSINESS...junior, senior, whatever, everone is pulling on the same end of the rope on this.

I'm sure that if the NWA Pilots strike, the company will fold. However, should they try to operate a ANY aircraft over ANY previous NWA routes (which includes change of gauge, more frequencies, what have you), this will be considered STRUCK WORK, with the resulting consequences.

Save money, it's going to be a bumpy ride. Even XJ or 9E folks should put off major expenditures.

Nu

 

[NuGuy]

Wasn't MDA a wholly owned entity before they sold it to Chautaqua?


Bye Bye---General Lee

No General,

This is a very common mis-perception. MDA never had it's own certificate. It operated soley on the USAirways Mainline certificate. You cannot have two separate business entities operating off of the same air carrier certificate.

Basically, its the same as if DAL "fenced" off the 737-200s, and called it Mid-Atlantic Old GuppyCO (MAOGCO). It would be an administrative division only.

BTW, for the express guys that "flowed" to MDA...they are now considered mainline pilots and have recall rights to the mainline.

Nu

 

[COpilot]

The MEC also passed a resolution directing the MEC Chairman to communicate to NWA management, the NWA BOD, and the NWA Unsecured Creditors Committee that NWA management’s proposals for Newco and the many other Scope and job protection changes management has proposed are absolutely unacceptable to NWA pilots. The resolution states that if the Bankruptcy Court approves the rejection of the pilot agreement and the Company imposes terms and conditions which include those items, the company should expect a strike by the Northwest pilot group.

'NUFF SAID,

320AV8R

I hope your right! Not because I want to be walking with you in the middle of Winter, but because if this can happen to the mighty NWA/ALPA, then it IS going to happen to everyone else. (If I can take time to remind others, NWA pilots have for the last half Century been the frist to throw down and picket when the cause dictated) Well,,, with the exception of this years MX strike.

Anyway, you all know what I mean. We saw a good CO union lose in '84, a Great EA take it for the team in '89, Nothing from US in '02, and even less from the once mighty UA in '04, DL pilots of Grandeur in '05 "sure we'll take 49% cuts".

A few weeks to months from now we will have what I think is the last word on Labor Unions post 1979 Airline De-Regulation.

I've keep my kids as far away from airplanes as I could, and thats sad, for I love airplanes and airlines, this ( WAS ) a wonderful career for my father before me and myself up until now. But it won't be for my kids. It's been reduced to people on airliners.net, the general public thinking that A airline pilot should be happy to have to have a job, that the profession is liken to that of a city bus driver. My colleagues I hate to be negative; positive is a much healthier attitude, but it's downhill, and nothing is stoping this thing.

Someone make me a liar, please? Good Luck NWA ALPA

 

[pilotyip]

co-pilot again a dose of reality

 

[YourPilotFriend]

For a positive note. Remember, the NewCo proposal is the extreme wish of what management wants. Our proposal to NWA management, does seek the middle ground. The current NewCo proposal is not a likely scenario since it would remove thousands of profitable revenue seats out of the NWA system. As for NWA's sake, I think pilots making regional rates at the mainline is a hell of a deal for them. If it's N Star or liquidation, they will surely select N Star; we must remain strong though.

 

[michael707767]

For a positive note. Remember, the NewCo proposal is the extreme wish of what management wants. Our proposal to NWA management, does seek the middle ground. The current NewCo proposal is not a likely scenario since it would remove thousands of profitable revenue seats out of the NWA system. As for NWA's sake, I think pilots making regional rates at the mainline is a hell of a deal for them. If it's N Star or liquidation, they will surely select N Star; we must remain strong though.

What's in your proposal? What is N Star? Thanks

 

[YourPilotFriend]

HERE:

"8. ALPA’s N Star Proposal

On October 29, ALPA proposed a structure for Northwest to operate a projected replacement fleet of aircraft in the 60-100 seat range in response to the Company’s Newco proposal. ALPA proposed that Northwest establish a new division, known as “N Star,” that would operate under a separate letter of agreement between Northwest and ALPA with different terms and conditions of employment from the basic CBA. Northwest’s current short haul DC-9 operations, largely between smaller heartland cities, is a large and core portion of Northwest’s system. ALPA’s proposal sought to retain such operations in Northwest. This is unlike the situation for other mainline carriers who have not traditionally done this flying because they did not have the equipment or the relevant geographical location for their hubs.
- 37 -
N Star would operate all 77-100 seat aircraft carrying the Northwest code except as provided in Section 1 of the CBA or in the letters of agreement concerning the Company’s
code sharing relationships with Continental and Delta. ALPA proposed that the pilot labor costs of the N Star division be set no less than the average pilot cost of the industry contracts covering comparable equipment. In proposing specific terms and conditions for the N Star operation, ALPA compared the US Airways MidAtlantic Airlines37 Embraer 190 operation and the 70 to 86 regional airline average. A binding arbitration process would resolve the terms for the succeeding N Star letter of agreement absent a consensual agreement. N Star would be initially staffed by bid from Northwest’s mainline operation, new hires and by recalling furloughed Northwest pilots. Thereafter, open positions would be filled by a “flow-up” arrangement permitting pilots and Northwest Airlink carriers Messaba, Pinnacle and Champion to bid for positions. There would be a single seniority list and a single pilot contract for N Star and mainline operations, permitting furloughed Northwest pilots to displace junior N Star pilots "

 

[michael707767]

thanks.

 

[Marko Ramius]

I don't know that this is going to well b/c let's face it NW is in banckruptcy, but it doesn't have to go as badly as some here are saying. UsAirways got MidAtlantic, but this idea has been stalled since then. UAL tried it next, but it got tossed out in the Contract 2003 agreement. If the dimwit master chairman over there didn't unilaterally sign a side letter allowing it, there wouldn't even have been EMB-170's at UAL. I think UsAirways+AWA ALPA lost an opportunity to keep the MidAtlantic planes at the new UsAirways in the getting to know you period in advance of their merger, but they succesfully held the line on the 190's-w/o work rule changes as well. AWA management could have attempted to use the bk process to get those airplanes on the UsAir side of things but didn't. Since UsAir+AMR unloaded their 100 seat fleets, no other major airline is more reliant on 70-100 seat a/c than N/W, so this is an issue worth falling on your swords for imo. It will likely take money(less) to get it done, but it's doable. $$$ are way easier to get back than work rules/scope, the sooner the NW/DL/ETC pilot groups understand that the better. In the end, NW management may really want to keep the flying at mainline, just for express wages to get a jump on the LCC 100 seat segment.

 

[FCPhotography]

I will Sympathy strike for NWA if anyone else will. Just waiting for the call from ALPA. (Pinnacle FO)

 

[pipejockey]

I think if the NWA pilots agreed to fly the 70-100 seaters at Jetwho,Valuejet, and Front(3rd)tier average wages, how could management argue for less? It would be a huge hit but at least the flying would be done by NWA pilots. The idea of flying these 70-100 seaters at regional wages is an insult. The regionals are nothing but sweat-shops that should be disbanded.

Now watch someone have the balls to defend their wonderful regional carrier. The same kind of guy who will in 10 years be defending the fact that most pilots will only be able to afford to live in a van down by the river. Not to digress, but it is becoming more infuriating the number of our fellow pilots who actually defend the wages we are paid anymore. The old "I don't do it for the money" attitude or the "if you don't like it leave". PATHETIC!!! If they are so independently wealthy they don't do this job to for the money, AKA to earn a living, then THEY should get out!!

 

[FCPhotography]

Just in case your post was directed at me.

This guy is not defending any regional. Just supporting the somewhat professional standard still held by the NWA pilots. I would not sweat one tear if Pinnacle folded. I have nothing to lose and can go make twice as much money doing anything else.

I bet if Pinnacle and Mesaba struck with NWA, NWA could fly the 70-100 seats at respectable wages. I think it would be fun. It would be more productive than my last 3 day trip.

Carry on.

 

[pipejockey]

I am sorry FC, it certainly was not. Any support you could give would be much appreciated. I am sure you can agree that the profession of regional airline pilot sux!! I was there.