Northwest pilots offer to fly small jets, for smaller paychecks

[letthebigdogeat]

It's just you General. Instead of bragging about quantity of posts, Surplus goes for quality. His 1432 posts contain far more rational thought than your 3000+ posts that you are so proud of. After a few words of your posts, all I see is:

"My FA friend at ASA said they wanted to get DOH, but I know that Delta needs to start flying 747s between ATL and DHN so that it can lower the CASM, because Grinstein says he doesn't like RJs on long routes, and we will bring the MD11s out of the desert because SONG is great and has great looking FAs and TV and did I mention how much we Delta pilots helped the CMR pilots through their strike and how much CMR pilots suck now because they won't hire furloughed Delta pilots, etc."

How did I do General?

LOL... Now that was funny!

 

[General Lee]

Inclusivescope,


Surplus1 tries and tries to get his point across, but he consistantly fails--and he has to write as much as possible to try to do it. He seems like a great guy--with a flawed sense of reality---and that goes for you too. Delta and Dalpa can make any decision they want and sign on the dotted line---and that is between them----Delta owns you--and they will do what is best. If that means cooperating with their biggest expense to get costs down---then sobeit. You guys hate that---and that makes you angry. Boy---that statement about me from you sure was funny! Laugh out loud---do it! Think again about what I just wrote--and then laugh again. You are going nuts!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

General, you are correct. DELTA owns us. Are those the right words? I don't seem to see where DALPA does.....is that right also?

 

[Lear70]

Also, there is a lot of talk about how the affiliates are not allowed to fly larger jets because they are having terms imposed on them. I totally disagree with that line of thought because at no point does the CBA say X airline will fly only Y type aircraft. What it DOES say is that only Z number of Y aircraft will fly on the NWA certificate. In other words the Airlinks may fly a 747 if they want to, just not for NWA. Now when your company figures out how to do that ON THEIR OWN then you may feel free to fly what you wish. ALPA has done nothing to limit the regionals' rights to fly aircraft, their companies have chosen not to fly those aircraft because they could not profitably do so within their agreements they made to get the contract flying. So don't blame ALPA, if you want larger aircraft look at your own company. (i.e. I-Air)

Redtailer, I agree with you 100% on almost everything you said. I fly here at PCL and if NW70 is signed it would limit my career expectancies here... and that's just too d*mn bad. It's your flying, and while I don't want to see ANYONE lose their jobs at someone else's benefit, I certainly can understand the NW pilot's position. I also would hate to see the agreement screw MSA or PCL over to where their pilots lost jobs (and will be very disappointed in the NWA MEC if they negotiate the deal to cause job loss at the 'Links). I've voiced this opinion on our private message board (that's not anonymous) and had several arguments over it, but I stand by my convictions. That said, the above quote is your only point that I disagree with.

The CBA doesn't limit us, but Northwest management DOES control exactly what we fly and whom we fly for as they hold a controlling interest in our stock and the BOD is made up primarily of Northwest mainline management and stock holders. Do you think for one second that they would let us do ANYTHING that would compete with Northwest in ANY way? I really don't think you're that naiive...

I take it you're not quite as educated on Independence Air as you are on the 'Links as they are bound by similar constraints, except that THEIR constraints were imposed by DALPA. I-Air decided to branch out on their own after UAL gave notice to cancel their agreement but I-Air still had a contract with Delta that could be flown regardless of what they did with I-Air... that is, UNTIL they put the first narrow-body medium jet on certificate. DALPA has a restriction in their contract prohibiting Delta management from utilizing any company that has narrow-body medium jet or larger on their certificate (someone from DAL could probably be more specific on size / seat capacity limits). The first second that jet flies a revenue trip, DALPA scope requires that the agreement be terminated... it works the same for Comair and any other DAL color regional - you don't think that's limiting?

Also, if you want a better look at the predatory nature of ALPA and their leanings towards mainline groups over regional groups, take a good, long look at what is happening at USAir's wholly-owned regionals. In a nutshell, the regionals represented by ALPA negotiated seniority rights and rates for certain aircraft. Management wants to put bigger aircraft on but that violates U mainline's scope provisions, so they negotiate the whole "jets-for-jobs" deal but the regional ALPA has to approve that kind of seniority list and aicraft rate ammendments. The pilot group when polled shows an overwhelming rejection of the terms U Management wants to impose, but then D.W. shows up and within a day, the MEC is ratifying an agreement that will stifle the career expectancy of the regional pilots in exchange for furloughed U jobs. Bet you some serious cash not a SINGLE one of those MEC members ever sees an MEC chair again and might even get recalled. And you don't call that predatory?

I'm not an RJDC supporter, I don't subscribe to their newsletter, I don't contribute to their campaign, but I also see the disparity in representation and refuse to close my eyes, cover my ears, and stomp my feet in hopes that it's just post-9/11 adjustment a la Eastern, Braniff, or TWA. I smell a trend towards something much more ominous and permanent and it's not a pretty scent.

p.s. I believe the number that would want to fly under NW70 is larger than many believe, especially as it would give you a mainline number to flow up to as time progressed. I believe the provisions of NW70 allow for as many mainline furloughed guys to fly it as will take it and the rest would come from the 'Links which means in the near-term (2-3 years) it would go to guys going from 50-seat CA to NW70 F/O which would probably be a hefty pay cut. That means the top 20% would probably opt not to take it (guys close to retirement), but I bet you'll be surprised at how many PCL guys would choose to grab a mainline seniority number, even if it means a 50% pay cut for a year or two. You have to remember how many people work at PCL who have never seen a jet before coming here and are in their early to mid 20's looking at a faster way to the "brass ring"...

 

[InclusiveScope]

Inclusivescope,


Surplus1 tries and tries to get his point across, but he consistantly fails--and he has to write as much as possible to try to do it. He seems like a great guy--with a flawed sense of reality---and that goes for you too.

General,
Surplus is a great guy and he does get his point across to those who are willing to listen. To those who refuse to accept the sad situation this union is getting itself into I suppose he is not getting his point across. I cannot speak for him, but for myself, I will continue to try and get my point across to those who want to listen. To those who don't want to listen, consider this as your wake-up call to what we are willing to do to protect our careers. You can just take it under advisement - I will not be seaking your nor any other mainline pilot's permission.

Delta and Dalpa can make any decision they want and sign on the dotted line---and that is between them----Delta owns you--and they will do what is best. If that means cooperating with their biggest expense to get costs down---then sobeit. You guys hate that---and that makes you angry. Boy---that statement about me from you sure was funny! Laugh out loud---do it! Think again about what I just wrote--and then laugh again. You are going nuts!

General, DALPA is not the bargaining agent, ALPA is. They can make any decision they want, but they have to consider how it will affect DFR issues. Delta may own us, but DALPA does not. I am beginning to think that "Brand Scope" is named for the brand that mainline pilots like to burn in our A$$ like a rancher does to cattle. By the way, it doesn't sound like it is me that is going nuts.

 

[General Lee]

Inclusivescope,


I am not going nuts either. The whole thing here boils down to what Delta wants to do--since they control you and me. If they choose to bargain with Dalpa or ALPA and try to get cost savings from their largest expense---they are going to do it---and it will cost them something in return. Equal representation isn't going to happen from ALPA because Delta isn't taking an equal amount of concessions from you and me. Face it, we work for the same entity--but we don't make the same amount of money or have the same benefits. It is hard to represent different people who don't make the same amount of money. If you guys don't like the representation---then you might have to find a new one.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[JohnDoe]

quote:
"Remember NWA MEC made the first move in this 70 seat game, not NWA mgmt."

Once again, somebody is posting incorrect BS to try and make their arguement look better. You are wrong.


quote:
"But, all furloughs should be recalled in approx. a year and half gaging only on retirements and small growth. "

As one of the furloughs, again, I will say that is pure BS. I wish it were true, but that is a pipedream. If Northwest started recalling tomorrow at 40 a month, every month (which will never, ever happen), it would take roughly 18 months to get all the remaining furloughs back. Not gonna happen. Sans nw70, last furlough off the street in roughly 2 and a half to three years. And even that may not happen depending on what happens with contract negotiations and/or "investment" proposals, what is going on at Delta, etc..


"What I think everyone is trying to say is that Market dictates. "

NO...! What most people are saying is how they think that big bad mainline is screwing the careers of regional pilots everywhere with their scope.

In regards to NW, its "ok" for -9 routes to be replaced by 50 and 44 seat rjs. Its "ok" that over the last 2.6 years mainline has furloughed 928 pilots while PCL has hired what, 400 pilots?? If affiliate carriers were to get the 70 seaters, I am sure it would be "ok" that those same 70 seaters replaced even more narrowbody flying at mainline, resulting in even longer furlough times. Nobody on the regional side mentions any of those items. All that is "ok," ....but mainline exercises their right to 70 seat flying and everbody cries "bloody murder!! You are hurting our growth!" Hypocrisy at its BEST. As somebody else said, not one regional group out there would get any heartburn if 70 or any other seat flying went to them and resulted in the loss of jobs at mainline. They would be growing. But that is human nature, I am not arguing that, and have brought it up before. Everybody has to look out for themselves. I am tired of the same old "we're getting screwed" arguement, because if the roles were reversed, and you were getting the flying, you would do the exact same thing. Do I like being on the street while PCL grows? Of course not. But what can you do? Management will do what it is they do.

Its ok when mainline loses flying to the regionals, but its not when the regionals lose it to mainline?? Cries of "the union is screwing us" resound! Give me a break. Everybody is out for themselves.

This is not, and will never be, one of those situations where we can all sit around the campfire singing "kum-by-ya" (sp). This is what happens everyday in every facet of our capitalist society. Somebody is going to lose, while another group wins. Pure and simple. All you can do about it is what some have done: take the typical lazy American route when they feel "hey, I think I'm getting screwed, and can't get what I want" and sue!

 

[balls deep340]

Open-mind

quote:
"Remember NWA MEC made the first move in this 70 seat game, not NWA mgmt."

That was said by a NWA pilots post. It is incorrect.

quote:
"But, all furloughs should be recalled in approx. a year and half gaging only on retirements and small growth. "

This will happen take a look at your retirement schedule. NWA Mgmt is saying nothing about it because they will use it as a carrot in the negotiations. Also the 70 seaters won't start coming till 2007 and 2008.


"What I think everyone is trying to say is that Market dictates. "

NO...! What most people are saying is how they think that big bad mainline is screwing the careers of regional pilots everywhere with their scope.

NO....! We are trying to tell you do what will be best for the company in the long haul to secure your job as well as mine. Jet blue and SWA will some day be coming and we need to be ready. NWA70 would cost a fortune to operate and won't help your furloughs. Also who the hell will want to come and work for NWA if you have to start at right seat of a RJ making squat.



America west allows their contractor to fly 90 seaters and now they are getting more airbus's because with the added connector passengers it has allowed them to grow. You need to keep an open mind with more 70 seaters this will bring more feed for more flying at NWA mainline. If you just think about the short run and protecting your jobs you will screw NWA in the long haul. Keep and open mind and look to the future and don't be so scared. Remember George Bush pedals fears and thats how he gets votes.





This is not, and will never be, one of those situations where we can all sit around the campfire singing "kum-by-ya" (sp). This is what happens everyday in every facet of our capitalist society. Somebody is going to lose, while another group wins. Pure and simple. All you can do about it is what some have done: take the typical lazy American route when they feel "hey, I think I'm getting screwed, and can't get what I want" and sue!

NO one is suing anyone we all realize releasing scope is up to you and Mgmts negotiations and we have no control. I'm just saying we will all be better off if you get rid of the 70 seat scope. And yes even the furloughs will be better off. My opinion only. I mean the avro is flying around with 69 seats when it could hold 85 the company is missing out on lots of revenue. What a waste for why? And no it won't keep one extra-9 on the property.

as;ldk

 

[flap operator]

John Doe - just to play a little devils advocate here. So, it isn't right for NWA to furlough whilst PCL grows like mad. It would be a slap in the face for them to get even MORE growth right? What about Mesaba? YOUR company has shrunk Mesaba to the point it is at right now. YOUR company intentionally stopped growth at Mesaba and created the situation we're in now. While PCL hired and CRJs moved into DTW and MSP replacing saab routes, Mesaba furloughed right along side NWA. Thankfully all of our furloughed are back on property (many didn't return after being furloughed and recalled twice or more) and we are hiring... only for attritian however, not growth. Mesaba took its last plane in 2000 and has again, shrunk since 9/11. My quesiton to you is this... is Mesaba anymore worthy of obtaining growth that NWA? In your book, we're not. Why? BECAUSE YOUR COMPANY and YOUR SCOPE LIMIT MESABAs EXISTENCE AND SUCCESS.

I do agree that since your contract captures all flying above 55 seats, you're entitled to it. COmplaining about that would be hypocrytical by all Mesaba folks, since our contract directly limits Big Sky growth in the same very way. It's just hard to want career progression and have that progression totally controlled by another company and their pilots.

I also agree with you it is all self preservation. Only we at the Airlinks can only self preserve what we can control, which is nothing.


FO

 

[JohnDoe]

quote:
"This will happen take a look at your retirement schedule. NWA Mgmt is saying nothing about it because they will use it as a carrot in the negotiations. Also the 70 seaters won't start coming till 2007 and 2008."


No way, no how, all the recalls are going to be back in 1.5 years. There are not enough retirements in the next 1.5 years to have everybody back due to that. You say management is not saying anything 'cause of contract negotiations. Well, those negotiations will be going on for what, at least another 6-8 months? They won't show that supposed "card" until negotiations are over right? That means that at the end of negotiations they are going to do a mass recall within 1 year......no way. Like I said, as one of those furloughs, I would love for you to be correct. But it will never happen.

"Also the 70 seaters won't start coming till 2007 and 2008."

I agree with that one. These aircraft won't show up on the property overnight. I do see that a good number of furloughs will be back before we have them "en-masse."

With regards to my comment on complaints of mainline screwing regionals, I will apologize to you in that it was not entirely directed towards you. I do, however, stick by my comments on the hypocrisy shown when people whine that mainline is taking growth away from them. And I also stick to my assertion that the majority of posts in this thread are claiming that mainline scope is creating a "lack" of regional growth, its illegal, etc. etc., and they are in turn complaining about it.


"Also who the hell will want to come and work for NWA if you have to start at right seat of a RJ making squat."

If they want to come to a mainline carrier, and that is the only route to it, they will do it. People do it everyday when they agree to work for $21 an hour at a regional.

"You need to keep an open mind with more 70 seaters this will bring more feed for more flying at NWA mainline. "


Yes, I am sure a SMALL percentage may be feed, but lets look at the reality of it. A good portion of the 70 seat flying is not going to be feed. All you have to do is look at the -9 flying that has been replaced by 44 and 50 seat rj's. Also, 44 seats are bypassing the hubs now. The 70 seaters will simply be replacing those smaller aircraft on said routes, and probably starting their own. It is not all going to feed mainline.


"NO one is suing anyone we all realize releasing scope is up to you and Mgmts negotiations and we have no control. "

Again, my bad for not being more specific, and apologies to you. That comment was not directed at the nw situation. It was directed towards the others complaing about mainline scope.

I'll have to get back with more responses, to flap operator as well.......my new parental duty is "calling" once again..I can't catch a break today.......lol

 

[flap operator]

JohnDoe - I'd be interested in seeing proof where 44/50 seaters have replaced so many DC9s. Most new CRJs have gone to upgage saab flying, downgage avros, enter new markets and add frequency. NWA mgmt have always beaten the "DC9s are actually cheaper to operate than RJs" drum. That said, I think NWA is just right sizing markets to match capasity with demand. If you can't fill a 9, why not use smaller shell size? Not very many 9s have even been retired. More 727s, DC10-40s and 747-200s have been retired than 9s. How is that the "fault" of the 44/50 seaters and the folks who fly them. Once again... YOUR company completely controls Mesaba and PCL... we go where they tell us to. Perhaps NWA mainline pilots should have embraced the Airlinkers a long time ago... perhaps we wouldn't be in this pissing match.


FO

 

[JohnDoe]

I just lost the entire friggin post I was working on.......lets try again......

flap operator:
"just to play a little devils advocate here. So, it isn't right for NWA to furlough whilst PCL grows like mad. It would be a slap in the face for them to get even MORE growth right? What about Mesaba? YOUR company has shrunk Mesaba to the point it is at right now. YOUR company intentionally stopped growth at Mesaba and created the situation we're in now. While PCL hired and CRJs moved into DTW and MSP replacing saab routes, Mesaba furloughed right along side NWA"

You'll get no arguements from me on any of those points. I'm not debating whether it is right or wrong. It is what it is. The situation is here and there's nothing we can do about it. Again, the purpose of my post was to call out the hypocritical "BS" I see people posting here with regards to mainline scope screwing them, losing growth, the union screwing them etc. etc. etc.. I used NW as an example because it is the situation that I have "facts" on. I wasn't going to use another carrier's situation for an example as I don't know about them.


"My quesiton to you is this... is Mesaba anymore worthy of obtaining growth that NWA? In your book, we're not. Why? "

I have never, in any of my posts, said one group is more worthy than another, Mesaba included. What I have said, and will say again, is that you get what you can negotiate for. Pure and simple. You were able to negotiate scope against Big Sky. Good for you. You protected your flying.


"It's just hard to want career progression and have that progression totally controlled by another company and their pilots."

Having come from a regional myself, I can understand that.


"I'd be interested in seeing proof where 44/50 seaters have replaced so many DC9s. "

I don't have the time to come up with specific examples of flights, but people I have been reading on the NW mec message board do, and they have come up with examples. One good example was the fact that on a recent bid, there were roughly 100 fewer -9 positions than in the past, and this was for just one domicile, and one position I believe (I might be wrong on the position part, I'll have to verify). Another good example is the recent announcement of increased flying out if IND. I believe 15 of the 19 flights were airlink. Those flights are not feeding mainline. If the affiliates had larger aircraft, I believe that number would have been more. Yes, I would agree that some rjs have gone to saab replacement, and increased frequency. Rightsizing I am sure has happened, and was needed, but not on all routes. Again, others have come up with some very specific examples where downsizing from a -9 was not justified (and no, those -9's were not moved to "new" routes).


"How is that the "fault" of the 44/50 seaters and the folks who fly them. Once again... YOUR company completely controls Mesaba and PCL... we go where they tell us to. "

WHOA, hang on there...... Again, you will never find in any of my posts where I blamed the pilots. Go back and read my second to last post and you will CLEARLY see who I blame. It is not the pilots.


"Perhaps NWA mainline pilots should have embraced the Airlinkers a long time ago... perhaps we wouldn't be in this pissing match."

In my opinion, there is only so much "embracing" that can be done. A single list between any mainline and its regional affiliates is nothing but a dream. It will never happpen. No airline management in this country is ever going to let it happen. They have too much to lose, including a lower-paid employee group, and "whipsaw." By the same token, no employee group out there has the negotiating leverage/capital to demand and receive "one-list."


Better stop before I lose this post too.........

 

[flap operator]

John Doe...MEM is the best example as to 9 flying being replaced. NWa does a fantastic job at right sizing the markets. Since the CRj has made its debut with a red tail route changes including DC9s, saabs, avros and 319/320s have happened so often each quarter it would be near impossible to keep track of. My whole point is that I don't think the CRJs can be blamed as much as they are for job losses at NWA.

You may not have mentioned personal attacks... but it does become personal when NWA controls my career at Mesaba through a scope clause that is in place. You're right, you get what you negotiate. Only as an Airlinker we can't scope mainline, which is where the flying comes from. Whoopty frekaing do... we scoped Big Sky. That still doesnt help the situation at NWA.

I htink we agree on most points, but not all. I see it from an Airlinker and you see it as a former Airlinker and now a mainliner. Much different eyes with much more to see on the other side of the street.

My point about Mesaba being worthy... was to illustrate the fact that Mesaba has shrunk and has had folks on the street at one point. NWA is in a similar situation, but on a much larger scale, only folks believe that NWA is entitled to new jobs and not Mesaba. Because the flying is "owned" by mainline.

I think we'll see a curve ball out of the NWA mgmt boys. They'll get what they want in some form and so will the NWA pilots. The folks that will really get screwed are the Airlinkers... which would only be par for the course. IMO this will morph into a J4J situation will will create mutiny at Mesaba.

We're slipping down the slippery slope now... and it's going to get crazier.


FO

 

[JohnDoe]

"and you see it as a former Airlinker and now a mainliner. "

Actually, I don't even really consider myself a mainliner........LOL I haven't been there in 2 years 7 months and roughly 5 days, and was only there for 6 months when I was......lol At this point, I feel more entrenched back in the corporate/135 world (ahhhh....nothing like being on call 7 days a week, 365).


"...only folks believe that NWA is entitled to new jobs and not Mesaba. Because the flying is "owned" by mainline."

Well, I can only speak for myself and what I think others are saying. Its not so much a sense of "entitlement" per se because they are at mainline, as it is a sense of "ownership." We (they) have a piece of paper signed by management that says they get all flying above 55 seats. As I have agreed to before, management ultimately "owns" all the flying. They agreed to give that segment to mainline. --Sidenote to surplus: Yes, yes, surplus, once again, it is not forever. Nobody's contract is (well, Eagle comes close with that ridiculous 16 year contract), and I don't recall seeing anybody say they thought it was forever.


"I think we'll see a curve ball out of the NWA mgmt boys. "

No doubt about that one.........We'll have to wait and see what happens.


"We're slipping down the slippery slope now... and it's going to get crazier."

With regards to this entire profession you got that right. I see it going the way of the maritime industry. Between cabotage/foreign ownership, current administration politics, terrorist attacks, the price of oil, bankruptcies, LCC's willing to fly fo on a 100 seat aircraft for what, 39 an hour, a successfull outcome of the rjdc's case (which, if they are successful in getting rid of Delta's scope, could result in every alpa carriers scope being demolished, and we'll all be working for mesa wages ) etc. etc. etc., the next 10 years will be interesting.


But hey......we get to fly for a living right??? Thats all that matters, LOL . Bueller, bueller.....anybody...right?? One of the best lines I've seen somebody say on this board is "never do for a career what some people do as a hobby." I guess I should add a disclaimer to this last paragraph that states this is not an attack or response to anybody in this thread, so that it is not misunderstood as such.

 

[InclusiveScope]

MEC Hotline Friday, Aug. 6th.

This is a NWA Master Executive Council (MEC) Hotline recorded on Friday, August 6, 2004.

This Hotline contains new information about a negotiations update and the "No Availability Option" program.

There is repeat information about the latest Ziplines.

NEGOTIATIONS UPDATE
NWA management responded yesterday to ALPA's 70-seat small jet proposal by restating its original proposal; one that includes the ability to outsource the 70-seat flying and reduce the restrictions on jets with 55 and fewer seats. Management's proposal was promptly rejected by the MEC Negotiating Committee. Management negotiators were told that NWA pilots have already “bought and paid for” the rights to fly aircraft larger than 55 seats so if NWA purchases these jets, NWA pilots will fly them. ALPA is waiting for management to make serious proposals on major issues and is still prepared to negotiate mutually beneficial solutions on the “investment agreement” path. However, if investment agreement negotiations fail, ALPA is prepared to resume traditional Section 6 negotiations. The next negotiating session is scheduled for the week of August 9.