Northwest pilots offer to fly small jets, for smaller paychecks

[Redtailer]

Surplus1, I don't know where you get your information but you might want to read the NWA contract first before responding.

YOU have decided that's OK because you think it all "belongs" to you anyway. Well, I hate to burst your bubble but it doesn't. What you get will be what you can negotiate. They have the same right at Mesaba to negotiate for that as you do. Maybe you don't like that but that's how it is. Just like you, they can "bid" whatever they want and YOU can't do D*ck about that. How you like them apples?

First of all NWA Pilots DO own all of the aforementioned flying. No bidding by other parties allowed. The scope clause is very specific. The only way that can be taken away is through bankrutpcy, but then again you can lose your house in bankruptcy too. So to say that the NWA pilots do not own it is pure fiction. Mesaba nor anyone else DOES NOT have any ability to negotiate the flying because the scope clause will not let them. The only way it could happen is if the NWA pilots decided to release that flying and the chances of that are highly unlikely.

At present, all you have is the contractual right to staff airplanes with more than 55-seats for the duration of your current contract, not for life. Your contract, like every other contract, will become amendable. At that time, or sooner if you both wish, you will have the chance to renegotiate those terms. At that time you will get what the Company chooses to give. If you're not happy with that, you can withdraw your services.

Someone chomping at the bit to take jobs away from the NWA pilots to benefit themselves?

In case you haven't noticed, the MEC is negotiating the pay rates and work rules now. If they do not come to an agreement then the NWA system will be at a loss for 70 seaters. No one gets to bid on it, no matter how much some folks may want to wine otherwise unless the NWA pilot group decide to release it. And that, as I said before, is highly unlikely.

It is also true that Mesaba and Pinnacle can bid to fly the 70-seaters for less than this "other carrier" you are mentally creating, in which case it may never "develop".

Um.. No.

They cannot if the NWA pilots decide to create a MDA type operation. Not a good alternative, but if that's what they agree to Mesaba and Pinnacle will not be able to bid. Only exception being is if the NWA pilots agree to place those jets at either of the Airlinks and even then there would certainly be fences for the pilot group. We saw how this worked at U and no one liked the outcome so I would not look for that scenario to play out.

No one said there was a conspiracy, those are your words. As you point out, the operating cost of the Avro, which your present contract artificially limits to 69-seats, will become substantially higher than the cost of a 70-sear CR7 operated at NW, under the terms of the contract within a contract that your MEC is proposing. If you are successful, the end result will be that the Avro's will be replaced by the CR7 because you will have undercut them, and the Mesaba pilots will lose those positions. Should that happen, you won't be having any heartburn over it.

I am not going to be suckered in to that one. What part of "not the same mission" did you not understand? 2 different aircraft with 2 different types of missions. But I will say that no matter what happens the Avros are on the chopping block. How close did they come to getting the axe not so long ago? Granted it was partly a negotiating ploy, but the fact is that the Avros will not be around for much longer no matter what happens. Keep in mind the DC9, as stated by the NWA CEO, has the lowest CASM in the system including the RJs and Avros. In other words there already is an airplane with 10 more seats and cheaper to operate than the Avro. Let's also not forget that the 70 seater will also be a direct replacement for the DC9-10 fleet. So please don't lecture me about losing pilot positions.

Touchy are we?

YES! After reading posts like yours for the last week that are loosely based on some facts but are filled with so many inaccuracies they twist the truth. Then people get some idea that what you and others are putting out there is fact when in reality it's garbage.

 

[FDJ2]

After reading posts like yours for the last week that are loosely based on some facts but are filled with so many inaccuracies they twist the truth. Then people get some idea that what you and others are putting out there is fact when in reality it's garbage.

You've broken the RJDC code.

 

[Redtailer]

Surplus1, one last thing I forgot to put in my last post. You REALLY need to look at the contract because if you had you would know that if they used the 70 seaters to replace the Avros, which they are not, those aircraft may be replaced by a 50 seat RJ 1 for 1. Hence, no loss of pilot positions.

 

[saabingitagain]

Surplus1, one last thing I forgot to put in my last post. You REALLY need to look at the contract because if you had you would know that if they used the 70 seaters to replace the Avros, which they are not, those aircraft may be replaced by a 50 seat RJ 1 for 1. Hence, no loss of pilot positions.

Last I checked, Mesaba didn't have any 50 seaters... I would be scerewed...
Anyway, all NWA has to do is get an unlimited # of 400Qs, which do not fall under the NWA scope, and they would have their 70 seaters at half the cost.

 

[Simon Says]

Redtail,
You must be a ex-mesaba dude now furloghed with NWA. Just guessing based on your info.

Anyways, everything you said is 100% correct. NW bought the airplanes and now NW managment and the pilot group must reach an agreement for NWA pilots to fly them. Well the pilots offered to fly them on competitive rates.

OK.....competitive is a 3 year FO making............oh..........lets just say $38 an hour. Fine, making $38 an hour is better than being on furlough. Well guess what. The two flight attendants in the back are NW flight attendants making more than you. The gate agents, mechanics, rampers, schedualer, dispatchers in fact, anybody and everybody is making more than you. The freakin cleaning people in MSP is making more than you. In order for a 70 seat airplane to be flown by a NWA pilot not just the pilots will have to make concessions to get them on the property. The whole employee system will have to make the concessions to get them on the property.

My point being. Dont hold your breath. There are a whole bunch of guys ready to retire in the next 10 years and as soon as NWA talks about pensions they are going to release scope like a hot patato.

More power to your group for getting them on your property. I am happy where I am at and would graciously accept to chance to fly a 70 seater. But like you said it is not up to me.

Good luck.

 

[Redtailer]

Hey Simon you are half right, I never worked for Mesaba.


As far as the pay rates are concerned I don't want to speculate on it because NOTHING has been proposed or agreed to in that area.

You make a valid point with the flt atts, rampers, and mechanics in that it also needs to be worked out. They may or may not make as much as me. Please don't get me wrong, I am all for NWA pilots flying those aircraft, but I will not do it at insulting rates, nor do I think any other pilot on or off the grounds would. If that happens then, in my opinion, NWA will simply not have a 70 seat jet outside the Avros.

My point is that nothing has been agreed to and all we can do is wait and see what type of agreement they come up with. You are already starting to see some of the complications with it.

Dont hold your breath. There are a whole bunch of guys ready to retire in the next 10 years and as soon as NWA talks about pensions they are going to release scope like a hot patato.

Don't count on it, because the NWA pilot group has already felt the pain of giving up scope. Keep in mind that it's not just the junior guys that suffer when DC9s are replaced with RJs, but there are a LOT of downgrades from the Capt seat that causes a waterfall effect. Many are experiencing this now and some may be retiring in the right seat or smaller hull because of it, which will in turn affect their retirement.

Bottom line is 70 seaters on NWA property is a win-win for both sides provided an equitable arrangement can be had.

 

[DoinTime]

If that happens then, in my opinion, NWA will simply not have a 70 seat jet outside the Avros.

Here is the problem. NW needs a 70 seat fleet to stay competitive in the market. NW employees (all of them) won't likely agree to the cuts necessary to make these aircraft competitive on a seat cost basis and NW pilots will not allow anyone else to fly them. NW will lose money due to the inability to take advantage of market opportunities.

A tough situation indeed.

 

[fly4ever]

saabingitagain,

I was going to mention the same thing about the Q400's. Fast(for a Turboprop), quiet, carries just about anything you can throw in it, APU, heads-up display available and 70 seats in stand-up, plenty of room configuration. For those of you who doubt this as a possibility because it is a turboprop, with the type of feeder system that NW uses, people will fly on them just as they have been flying on the Saabs even though they don't like those "spinning things" on the wings. BTW, there is no contract limitation on turboprops in the NW pilot contract.

Contract language is important, as we all know, but even more important is what language isn't written in a contract.

Respectfully

 

[avrodriverj85]

Hey Redtailer,

That will be about enough out of you.

You mentioned in a previous post that the rates are being negotiated, and that NWA pilots wouldn't do it for cheap! You are full of it ! Your NWA furloughees took jobs at Pinnacle, which just shows in my book that all you mainline types talk out of both sides of your face. (typical minnesota babble). When times are good, you don't want to have anything to do with the regional flying, times are bad and it's all about what you own or are entitled to. FYI: 5 year FO @ XJ is making $34.08/hr.

Also to fellow XJ'ers: Remember how during the contract and TA roadshows that our union was spewing the ALPA garbage about growth and how we needed to sign the TA to be viable for growth? Remember? Wychor, Gliadon, and Schirmers need to be tarred and feathered - and ridden out of town on a rail. If you still believe those guys are looking out for our best interests, you need a swift kick in the nuts. What happened to all the Spanjers " keeping the costs down, to bid for the 70 seaters"? B.S.

I think a monthly contribution to the RJDC is in order and I would encourage every XJ and regional pilot to get involved and educated. Maybe when you send in your RJDC payment, you can make a copy of the check or payment and forward it to Duane Woerthless... eventually he'll get the message.

The days of going to a mainline are over - for now. Stop listening to ALPA's cry to protect mainline, and worry more about protecting our jobs at the regional level.

 

[Redtailer]

avrodriverj85,

You and others like you obviously have no clue as to what is going on. If the facts don't support you, no problem, just make s**t up right?

If this is indicative of the RJDC then it is nothing more then a pack of used car salesmen trying to sell a Pacer. Low mileage, runs Great!!

You mentioned in a previous post that the rates are being negotiated, and that NWA pilots wouldn't do it for cheap! You are full of it ! Your NWA furloughees took jobs at Pinnacle, which just shows in my book that all you mainline types talk out of both sides of your face. (typical minnesota babble).

First off you obviously have no clue as to how many furloughees took those positions. Out of the 929 furloughees only a handful went to Pinnacle. Out of those, several of them got fed up with it and quit. And who are you to say what job someone should or should not take based on salary? That is a personal decision, and for some that may have been the only way to help feed their family and keep flying. Oh we are not worthy!!!

Secondly, you are trying to put words in my mouth that I never said. The NWA pilots will fly for whatever is negotiated nothing more, nothing less. That's why I have said several times before that I am not speculating what those rates will be. However, you are trying to set the payscales before the company has even had a chance to respond to the initial proposal! It's clear that you are just trying to get people to join the RJDC by using deceit.

When times are good, you don't want to have anything to do with the regional flying, times are bad and it's all about what you own or are entitled to.

Your a** must be hurting because you had to dig really far up there to pull that one out.... I have never heard any pilot at NWA say or publish anything to that affect. In fact, caring about what airplanes were being outsourced was the reason for the scope clause in the first place which was negotiated in '98!

Also to fellow XJ'ers: Remember how during the contract and TA roadshows that our union was spewing the ALPA garbage about growth and how we needed to sign the TA to be viable for growth? Remember? Wychor, Gliadon, and Schirmers need to be tarred and feathered - and ridden out of town on a rail. If you still believe those guys are looking out for our best interests, you need a swift kick in the nuts. What happened to all the Spanjers " keeping the costs down, to bid for the 70 seaters"? B.S.

If that is even true, and judging by your record of accuracy it is highly questionable, just how was Mesaba planning to get around the scope clause? Sounds more like wishful thinking than fact. Right now NWA ALPA is trying to get Mesaba and Pinnacle guys a flow up to the 70 seater with a NWA seniority number without a flowback, so how is that not in Mesaba pilots best interest? Oh, wait that doesn't fit in with the lies of the RJDC darn. I guess you will just have to twist that fact around to read "flow back only on top of the seniority lists."

If your number ever comes up please do us all a favor and stay on the Avro. NWA does not need or want folks like you in the ranks. Especially since "mainline types talk out of both sides of your face."

I think a monthly contribution to the RJDC is in order and I would encourage every XJ and regional pilot to get involved and educated.

LOL!!!

Educated by who, Baghdad Bob? "The rumors of the Americans taking over the airport are completely false. We are in full control."

 

[Miss'nFly'n]

Just for clarification on the "no limit on turbo props"

I've been out of the game for a few years, but the NWA scope language addresses NWA seniority list flying as: "aircraft with a maximum passenger capacity of 60 seats or more & are certificated with a max gross T/O weight of 70,000 pounds or more".

As with any contract, there a several exemptions to this (off the top of my head):
Regional Jets (got there own definitions & language), MLT vacations, Horizon Code Share, American Eagle in specific city pairs (used to be, not sure now), & I'm sure there are some others.

 

[JohnDoe]

avrodriverj85,

Once again you have shown how you like to spread sensationalistic garbage.

quote:
"Your NWA furloughees took jobs at Pinnacle, which just shows in my book that all you mainline types talk out of both sides of your face. "

Lets see, last figure I saw was roughly 35 out of 928 total furloughs went to PCL, and as redtailer said, some of those left. You're right, 3.7 percent of the furloughed pilots, or roughly 0.5 percent of the mainline seniority list is quite a huge number, and displays the sentiment of "all" mainline types........note extreme sarcasm.


"When times are good, you don't want to have anything to do with the regional flying, times are bad and it's all about what you own or are entitled to."

Once again, that is just pure emotion-based rhetoric. If mainline didn't care about "regional" flying, they wouldn't have expended negotiating capital 6 years ago to get 56 seat and above scope. That scope was negotiated when "times were good." Lets also remember that it was NW management that came to mainline about operating 70 seaters, not the other way around. Mainline decided 6 years ago they wanted 56 seats and above.


"Wychor, Gliadon, and Schirmers need to be tarred and feathered - and ridden out of town on a rail"

This is about the third time I have seen you complaining about your own MEC. If they are so bad, why don't you do something about it?? If you would spend as much time trying to change your own MEC as you do spreading propaganda, maybe you could make a difference there. Your pilot group voted them into their positions. Your pilot group keeps them in those same positions. Your pilot group approved the latest TA, accepting the conditions of it. If you have a problem with it, perhaps you should speak with your own pilot group.


"FYI: 5 year FO @ XJ is making $34.08/hr."

And your point is....????? Your pilot group is the one who is accepting to work at that wage. You had a golden opportunity to change that wage with your "attempt" at a strike, and you gave it up.


"The days of going to a mainline are over - for now. "

What kind of double-speak is that?? You spent 2 paragraphs "rallying the troops" with your rjdc and "our mec sucks" banter, go on to say that the days of going to mainline are over, then change your mind and say that it might be obtainable?? Which is it?

 

[fly4ever]

Miss'nFlyin',

I believe that the scope language in the NW contract specifies a limit on "jet" seats only - not on turboprop seats - I may be wrong. Time to go take another look at the contract and see exactly how it is worded.

p.s. I hope your handle doesn't mean you're out of flying for good.

 

[DoinTime]

Reference NWALPA section 1.C.1 & 2. None of the exceptions allow for relief of the 60 seat cap if operarated by an Airlink affiliate. 59 seat turboprops are the maximum allowable at the 'links.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus1, I don't know where you get your information but you might want to read the NWA contract first before responding.

I have read your contract. In fact I have a copy of it. I was not disputing what it says, just your ability to hold that under current circumstances.

First of all NWA Pilots DO own all of the aforementioned flying. No bidding by other parties allowed. The scope clause is very specific. >>>.

You missed my point in your haste to "defend" your contract, which is not being attacked by me. Nevertheless, the truth is you do not own the flying. The Company owns the flying, you have the contractual right to do most of it and that includes the 70-seat aircraft. I understand that.

The Company has asked you to give "scope relief". You have countered with a proposal to retain that flying at the mainline. There is nothing wrong with your doing that and I haven't said there was.

You are not in Section 6, so you do not have to negotiate anything at this time. However, your Company is asking for concessions. Up to now, you have offered 1/2 of what they want. So, you are negotiating. You can put anything on the table that you want to, so can the Company.

If you do not reach an agreement, the status quo will remain in place. When Section 6 comes around, we are back to "everything" is on the table that either of you wants to put on the table. There is nothing unique or different about contract negotiations on the NW property vs. any other union property.

Someone chomping at the bit to take jobs away from the NWA pilots to benefit themselves?

You are mistaken. I work for Comair, not NW, not MSA, not PCL. I will never, yes, I can say and I mean never, work for any of those airlines and there is nothing I want or could take from any of you. However, if you negotiate substantially lower pay rates to place these aircraft at NW, it will affect me. That is the principle reason I am concerned about what you do. The secondary reason is that lower rates, whether negotiated by you or anyone else, will affect all of us with the same equipment guage and the impact will be negative. The current trend of low-ball rates to capture flying or growth is disadvantageous to all of us, you included. Therefore I am opposed to that.

In case you haven't noticed, the MEC is negotiating the pay rates and work rules now. If they do not come to an agreement then the NWA system will be at a loss for 70 seaters.

I have noticed. That is why I am posting. I am also familiar with the infrastructure of the legacy carriers. Since my airline currently operates the same type aircraft that you are now "negotiating" for, I am also familiar with its economics. I know that you, or any other "mainline" carrier, cannot operate this aircraft economically (competitively) in your current infrastructure, unless you lower your compensation and other contractual terms to values substantially below those that I currently enjoy. It is not just pilot salaries.

When you do that, it will affect our ability to retain our current contract. As you might guess, I don't want to take a pay cut because you want to fly the CRJ-700. Were it not for that, I couldn't care less what you do.

My contract is already under intense pressure because of actions like those at USAirways, Mesa, Chautauqua, Mesaba, Pinnacle, PSA, Eagle, SkyWest, and now JetBlue, etc. You, by emulating them, will add fuel to the fire. That doesn't make me a happy camper.

They cannot if the NWA pilots decide to create a MDA type operation. Not a good alternative, but if that's what they agree to Mesaba and Pinnacle will not be able to bid.

Your idea that Mesaba or Pinnacle cannot bid for the work you are negotiating is erroneous. The Company is looking for ways to make this operation viable. You are "bidding" on the flying as we write. So can anyone else, Just as your group makes a proposal to the Company, they can do the same and probably have. It is true that your scope clause is an obstacle to the Company being able to accept a bid from it's code share partners. However, it is not an insurmountable obstacle. Scope clauses of that variety come and go.

It may make you feel good to say that if you don't fly them NWA won't fly them, but that sir is an ilusion. If the Company decides to get rid of your scope clause obstruction, it may take a while, but they can do it. If you do not give the concessions they want, they have the option of BK, which will trash your contract entirely. If they can't do that they can wait for Section 6 and trash your scope clause there. The point is, if the company really wants to accept an outside bid for this flying, they can and will do it. Just like you may be willing to cut your rates, ceate a contract within a contract, set up an MDA type operation or whatever, so can the other bidders and there will be other bidders. In fact there already are or the Company would not have asked you for scope relief. If they want this airplane, they have long since determined what they need to operate it competitively and how their affiliates can provide it.

To make a long story shorter, the bidding war is already in progress. All that is left is a decision of who is the lowest bidder and who gets the "award". That is the problem that bothers me.

What part of "not the same mission" did you not understand? 2 different aircraft with 2 different types of missions. But I will say that no matter what happens the Avros are on the chopping block. <<<>>> Keep in mind the DC9, as stated by the NWA CEO, has the lowest CASM in the system including the RJs and Avros. <<>> Let's also not forget that the 70 seater will also be a direct replacement for the DC9-10 fleet. So please don't lecture me about losing pilot positions.

I know that the Avro is already on the chopping block and I understand its "mission". I also know that you operate the 9-10, that they are amortized, and have the lowest CASM in your current fleet. I understand that CR7's, if you operate them, will ultimately replace the 9-10. If you don't operate them and Mesaba does, they will still replace the 9-10. So, if you replace the Avros, Mesaba either has to buy 50-seat RJs or lose jobs. (In the bastard operation you all have, Mesaba doesn't buy airplanes, NWA buys them for Mesaba & PCL both). If Mesaba operates the CR7 and the 9-10 goes away, you will lose the jobs instead. No matter how it turns out, its a bad situation for somebody.

Your case is somewhat unusual because you are the only major airline operating such small aircraft as the DC9-10. There is no "gap" at all between your aircraft and the CR7. I understand the implications.

Once more, my principle concern is the same as yours; self preservation. I am worried about pressures on my own pilot group resulting from your efforts to retain this flying. I realize that to be competitive, for the reasons previously mentioned, you would have to lower your compensation much below ours and even below Mesaba's, by a substantial margin. That triggers my Master Warning.

We are no different than you. Self-preservation is natures first law. That applies to you and it is why you are making "proposals". It applies to us and it is why we aren't thrilled by the prospect of what you may do.

I have nothing against NW pilots, but understand .... the enemy of my enemy is my friend. The decision made by USAirways pilots re MDA, converts them into my enemy. Not because they are mainline pilots but because they have undercut our compensation by as much as $55 per hour. They have no longevity, no contract for MDA, no work rules, and no benefits. If you do the same you will become my enemy as well. On the other hand if Mesaba is ultimately the successful bidder, they will still undercut us but, by a lot less than you will have to. Guess who I favor?

YES! After reading posts like yours for the last week that are loosely based on some facts but are filled with so many inaccuracies they twist the truth. Then people get some idea that what you and others are putting out there is fact when in reality it's garbage.

There is no garbage in my post. I do not know the exact numbers that your MEC is proposing. Unless you are a member of the NW MEC, you don't either. What you have read is the same thing that I have read, published in your "Across the Table" news rag. Additionally, my understanding of the industry and the negotiating process is not at the amateur level. I have a pretty solid background in the process and a thorough understanding of the options, which I am quite certain matches yours.

This is not an emotional event for me, it's about protection of our interests; business. I'm sorry if that ofends you, but that's how it goes when folks start bidding wars. Your scope clause is nice to have, but it is also unrealistic in the current environment. The cat is unfortunately out of the bag, The only way to "fix" it is to find a solution that makes NW/MSA/PCL the equivalent of a single group and that is virtually impossible unless you can convince your Company to give up its whipsaw leverage, I hope you can, but the chances are not in your favor.

Like it or not, if the Company really wants to operate that aircraft type, they will find a way to do it, with or without you. You can take that to the bank.

By the way I like your MEC's concept of a flow up without a flow back. That's a much better start than the J4J BS of USA. Given you have made that proposal, if it was my call at MSA and PCL, I would work hard to find away to ensure that NW pilots don't lose their jobs, if it turns out that you don't get the airplanes. There are many options that could be fair to all.

I wish you the best, as long as you don't underbid us.

 

[Lear70]

Surplus1, one last thing I forgot to put in my last post. You REALLY need to look at the contract because if you had you would know that if they used the 70 seaters to replace the Avros, which they are not, those aircraft may be replaced by a 50 seat RJ 1 for 1. Hence, no loss of pilot positions.

No loss of pilots positions? What about the Avro drivers? (unless Mesaba gets awarded some 50 seaters).

You are not in Section 6, so you do not have to negotiate anything at this time. However, your Company is asking for concessions. Up to now, you have offered 1/2 of what they want. So, you are negotiating. You can put anything on the table that you want to, so can the Company.

Northwest has been in Section 6 for nearly two years now. Management has asked for an "expedited discussion" of a "current ammendment" to their current Scope section for 70 seaters.

My contract is already under intense pressure because of actions like those at USAirways, Mesa, Chautauqua, Mesaba, Pinnacle, PSA, Eagle, SkyWest, and now JetBlue, etc. You, by emulating them, will add fuel to the fire.

1. PCL doesn't have a 70-seat rate. We're currently in Section 6 and are shooting for more than you make on our 44- and 50- seat jet rates.

2. Northwest has NOT proposed to undercut your rate. In speaking with their pilots, all indications are that they understand that other employee groups will have to take cuts to make the 70-seater a profitable aircraft - the pilot group is NOT going to carry the pay cuts for the entire company to make this aircraft protable.

If you do not give the concessions they want, they have the option of BK, which will trash your contract entirely. If they can't do that they can wait for Section 6 and trash your scope clause there. The point is, if the company really wants to accept an outside bid for this flying, they can and will do it.

All of your above statements are YEARS away. Northwest has too much money on hand to file BK anytime soon (at least two years). Section 6 will be concluded within a year (from the information I get), yes it will be concessionary, no, Scope clause is not on the chopping block... it's actually probably the single biggest obstacle to finishing Section 6. No outside bidding will be going on for QUITE some time, if ever.

So, if you replace the Avros, Mesaba either has to buy 50-seat RJs or lose jobs.

Not an option. Northwest mainline decides who gets the CRJ's, not Mesaba or Pinnacle. If they replace the Avros, Mesaba has no choice to add aircraft back. That said, Mesaba will probably get awarded some CRJ's by at least this time next summer... right as Pinnacle negotiations heat up on pay rates.

The Q400 would make a great replacement frame for the Saabs, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that anytime soon.

Since the pilots are pretty stuck on Comair equivalent wages (from my intel), and since I seriously doubt Northwest's ability to negotiate lower rates for the other workers, I therefore doubt their success in obtaining an operating environment for the 70-seaters anytime in the near future. Will it hurt them? Probably. Will the pilots care? Not as long as additional furloughs are avoided and the bleeding eventually stops. If things get worse, I'm sure the concept will be revisited.

 

[sf3boy]

According to what NWA ALPA has told the MSA ALPA MEC, nothing will materialize on the 70 seat aircraft until 2007-2008. By that time, according to the numbers that MSA ALPA has been told, nearly all of the NWA furloughs should be called back. NWA, I have been told, can expect to have around 200 pilots retire/quit per year.

There are going to be huge struggles to get a NWA FA make $20/hr and a rampie to make $6.75/hr in order to be competitive with Mesaba and Pinnacle. If this passes and gets online as how I have been shooled by ALPA, it will be great for all of the NWA new hires in years down the road.

Example 1 A 10 year Mesaba pilot with 3 years of Saab captain experience would have to start out at another regional payscale, lose all his seniority at his first regional, and then in 5 more years, he can maybe hold DC-9 FO.

Example 2 A F-16 pilot gets hired to fly for $35/hr for the first year, $36/hr the second and a whole $38/ hr the third while his F-16 buddy got hired at Fed Ex and makes $50, $75, $100 in those same three years.

Yes, it will be quite challenging indeed.

 

[GogglesPisano]

saabingitagain,

Contract language is important, as we all know, but even more important is what language isn't written in a contract.

Respectfully

Profound.

 

[surplus1]

According to what NWA ALPA has told the MSA ALPA MEC,

By now you should have figured out that NWA ALPA tells MSA ALPA, whatever they think you want to hear. If you don't understand that, you deserve whatever they do to you.

Example 1 A 10 year Mesaba pilot with 3 years of Saab captain experience would have to start out at another regional payscale, lose all his seniority at his first regional, and then in 5 more years, he can maybe hold DC-9 FO.

Exactly (except it won't be 5 more years. Would you believe 10?). You should be thrilled by the wonderful possibility of being able sit next to a NW new hire in the left seat, for less money than you make now. Such a deal! Just think of the wonderful "experience" you will gain moving from the left seat of an Avro85 to the right seat of a CR7 ... where you get to fly with a real airline pilot. You should all be breathing heavy in hopes that you'll get the opportunity.

Yes, it will be quite challenging indeed.

You got that right.

 

[Chris9702l]

Quote from Surplus1:
"where you get to fly with a real airline pilot"

I just hope we don't have to fly to Rapid City!