Northwest pilots offer to fly small jets, for smaller paychecks

[FarginDooshbahg]

If you're not happy with that, you can withdraw your services.

You can practice what you preach. Oh wait, I forgot. You don't do THAT, either. Well...I'll be waiting for my ticket to that historic event, also.

In fact, I'll even annoint you my first ever honorary title...

YOU are a fargin dooshbahg.

(Standing by for some of your rousing melodrama...)

 

[JohnDoe]

quote:
"Looks like your "facts" are pretty confused with your opinions."


Thats funny.....your's are the same way:

"However, we do have the example of your buddies at USAirways.."
"What you APPEAR to be proposing ......." (my emphasis added)
"The probability that you will lower pilot pay to do that is quite likely..."

Yep...looks like you yourself have alot of "facts" with regards to what is happening at NW.


"What you get will be what you can negotiate. "

Thats right....and they already negotiated all flying above 55 seats via their scope.



"Since we do not know what compensation you have proposed we can't really accuse you of "underbidding" as yet. "


But you are already doing that with you statement: "If you are successful, the end result will be that the Avro's will be replaced by the CR7 because you will have undercut them,...."

How can you say we haven't undercut anybody yet, and then go on to say that if we are successful, the avros are going to go away because we underbid somebody??? Again, this looks like speculation, not the facts.

 

[JohnDoe]

.......

Disregard.....looks like they extended the "edit" time-frame. Couldn't change it earlier......???

(removed correction to last paragraph)

 

[FN FAL]

Touchy are we?


Now YOU listen carefully. NWA ALPA doesn't own any flying, you just think you do. The flying belongs to the Company, all of it...

...Looks like your "facts" are pretty confused with your opinions. Maybe you need a taller soap box? Want to borrow mine?

Thanks for the post Surplus1. I know that I don't have the technical background in airline unions that some you guys do, but I do read a lot of discussion here and other places. I did hold an Alpa number with Mesaba for a short time, so I do find this story interesting.

Should be interesting watching this 70 seater thing unfold.

 

[JohnDoe]

FN FAL,

Both surplus and redtailer are correct with regards to who "owns" the 70 seat flying.

Surplus is ultimately correct in that it is NW management that owns all the flying, mainline, feeder, or whatever.

However, there is an agreement in place (signed by the same management) that says all flying of 56 seats and greater will be given to mainline if management wants to do said flying. In the here-and-now, management can not just give that flying to whoever they want to. They agreed, 6 years ago, that it would go to mainline. So, for now, you can say that mainline "owns" that flying as well. (maybe an "exclusive lease" is better..??)

Yes, yes...I know.....It is not "forever." But this current proposal is now, under the current contract. You can speculate on what "could-might-kinda sorta-maybe" happen in future contract negotiations, in a bankruptcy, the coming of the seven horsemen (7?), etc. etc.. But in the here-and-now, it "belongs" to mainline.

 

[Redtailer]

Surplus1, I don't know where you get your information but you might want to read the NWA contract first before responding.

YOU have decided that's OK because you think it all "belongs" to you anyway. Well, I hate to burst your bubble but it doesn't. What you get will be what you can negotiate. They have the same right at Mesaba to negotiate for that as you do. Maybe you don't like that but that's how it is. Just like you, they can "bid" whatever they want and YOU can't do D*ck about that. How you like them apples?

First of all NWA Pilots DO own all of the aforementioned flying. No bidding by other parties allowed. The scope clause is very specific. The only way that can be taken away is through bankrutpcy, but then again you can lose your house in bankruptcy too. So to say that the NWA pilots do not own it is pure fiction. Mesaba nor anyone else DOES NOT have any ability to negotiate the flying because the scope clause will not let them. The only way it could happen is if the NWA pilots decided to release that flying and the chances of that are highly unlikely.

At present, all you have is the contractual right to staff airplanes with more than 55-seats for the duration of your current contract, not for life. Your contract, like every other contract, will become amendable. At that time, or sooner if you both wish, you will have the chance to renegotiate those terms. At that time you will get what the Company chooses to give. If you're not happy with that, you can withdraw your services.

Someone chomping at the bit to take jobs away from the NWA pilots to benefit themselves?

In case you haven't noticed, the MEC is negotiating the pay rates and work rules now. If they do not come to an agreement then the NWA system will be at a loss for 70 seaters. No one gets to bid on it, no matter how much some folks may want to wine otherwise unless the NWA pilot group decide to release it. And that, as I said before, is highly unlikely.

It is also true that Mesaba and Pinnacle can bid to fly the 70-seaters for less than this "other carrier" you are mentally creating, in which case it may never "develop".

Um.. No.

They cannot if the NWA pilots decide to create a MDA type operation. Not a good alternative, but if that's what they agree to Mesaba and Pinnacle will not be able to bid. Only exception being is if the NWA pilots agree to place those jets at either of the Airlinks and even then there would certainly be fences for the pilot group. We saw how this worked at U and no one liked the outcome so I would not look for that scenario to play out.

No one said there was a conspiracy, those are your words. As you point out, the operating cost of the Avro, which your present contract artificially limits to 69-seats, will become substantially higher than the cost of a 70-sear CR7 operated at NW, under the terms of the contract within a contract that your MEC is proposing. If you are successful, the end result will be that the Avro's will be replaced by the CR7 because you will have undercut them, and the Mesaba pilots will lose those positions. Should that happen, you won't be having any heartburn over it.

I am not going to be suckered in to that one. What part of "not the same mission" did you not understand? 2 different aircraft with 2 different types of missions. But I will say that no matter what happens the Avros are on the chopping block. How close did they come to getting the axe not so long ago? Granted it was partly a negotiating ploy, but the fact is that the Avros will not be around for much longer no matter what happens. Keep in mind the DC9, as stated by the NWA CEO, has the lowest CASM in the system including the RJs and Avros. In other words there already is an airplane with 10 more seats and cheaper to operate than the Avro. Let's also not forget that the 70 seater will also be a direct replacement for the DC9-10 fleet. So please don't lecture me about losing pilot positions.

Touchy are we?

YES! After reading posts like yours for the last week that are loosely based on some facts but are filled with so many inaccuracies they twist the truth. Then people get some idea that what you and others are putting out there is fact when in reality it's garbage.

 

[FDJ2]

After reading posts like yours for the last week that are loosely based on some facts but are filled with so many inaccuracies they twist the truth. Then people get some idea that what you and others are putting out there is fact when in reality it's garbage.

You've broken the RJDC code.

 

[Redtailer]

Surplus1, one last thing I forgot to put in my last post. You REALLY need to look at the contract because if you had you would know that if they used the 70 seaters to replace the Avros, which they are not, those aircraft may be replaced by a 50 seat RJ 1 for 1. Hence, no loss of pilot positions.

 

[saabingitagain]

Surplus1, one last thing I forgot to put in my last post. You REALLY need to look at the contract because if you had you would know that if they used the 70 seaters to replace the Avros, which they are not, those aircraft may be replaced by a 50 seat RJ 1 for 1. Hence, no loss of pilot positions.

Last I checked, Mesaba didn't have any 50 seaters... I would be scerewed...
Anyway, all NWA has to do is get an unlimited # of 400Qs, which do not fall under the NWA scope, and they would have their 70 seaters at half the cost.

 

[Simon Says]

Redtail,
You must be a ex-mesaba dude now furloghed with NWA. Just guessing based on your info.

Anyways, everything you said is 100% correct. NW bought the airplanes and now NW managment and the pilot group must reach an agreement for NWA pilots to fly them. Well the pilots offered to fly them on competitive rates.

OK.....competitive is a 3 year FO making............oh..........lets just say $38 an hour. Fine, making $38 an hour is better than being on furlough. Well guess what. The two flight attendants in the back are NW flight attendants making more than you. The gate agents, mechanics, rampers, schedualer, dispatchers in fact, anybody and everybody is making more than you. The freakin cleaning people in MSP is making more than you. In order for a 70 seat airplane to be flown by a NWA pilot not just the pilots will have to make concessions to get them on the property. The whole employee system will have to make the concessions to get them on the property.

My point being. Dont hold your breath. There are a whole bunch of guys ready to retire in the next 10 years and as soon as NWA talks about pensions they are going to release scope like a hot patato.

More power to your group for getting them on your property. I am happy where I am at and would graciously accept to chance to fly a 70 seater. But like you said it is not up to me.

Good luck.

 

[Redtailer]

Hey Simon you are half right, I never worked for Mesaba.


As far as the pay rates are concerned I don't want to speculate on it because NOTHING has been proposed or agreed to in that area.

You make a valid point with the flt atts, rampers, and mechanics in that it also needs to be worked out. They may or may not make as much as me. Please don't get me wrong, I am all for NWA pilots flying those aircraft, but I will not do it at insulting rates, nor do I think any other pilot on or off the grounds would. If that happens then, in my opinion, NWA will simply not have a 70 seat jet outside the Avros.

My point is that nothing has been agreed to and all we can do is wait and see what type of agreement they come up with. You are already starting to see some of the complications with it.

Dont hold your breath. There are a whole bunch of guys ready to retire in the next 10 years and as soon as NWA talks about pensions they are going to release scope like a hot patato.

Don't count on it, because the NWA pilot group has already felt the pain of giving up scope. Keep in mind that it's not just the junior guys that suffer when DC9s are replaced with RJs, but there are a LOT of downgrades from the Capt seat that causes a waterfall effect. Many are experiencing this now and some may be retiring in the right seat or smaller hull because of it, which will in turn affect their retirement.

Bottom line is 70 seaters on NWA property is a win-win for both sides provided an equitable arrangement can be had.

 

[DoinTime]

If that happens then, in my opinion, NWA will simply not have a 70 seat jet outside the Avros.

Here is the problem. NW needs a 70 seat fleet to stay competitive in the market. NW employees (all of them) won't likely agree to the cuts necessary to make these aircraft competitive on a seat cost basis and NW pilots will not allow anyone else to fly them. NW will lose money due to the inability to take advantage of market opportunities.

A tough situation indeed.

 

[fly4ever]

saabingitagain,

I was going to mention the same thing about the Q400's. Fast(for a Turboprop), quiet, carries just about anything you can throw in it, APU, heads-up display available and 70 seats in stand-up, plenty of room configuration. For those of you who doubt this as a possibility because it is a turboprop, with the type of feeder system that NW uses, people will fly on them just as they have been flying on the Saabs even though they don't like those "spinning things" on the wings. BTW, there is no contract limitation on turboprops in the NW pilot contract.

Contract language is important, as we all know, but even more important is what language isn't written in a contract.

Respectfully

 

[avrodriverj85]

Hey Redtailer,

That will be about enough out of you.

You mentioned in a previous post that the rates are being negotiated, and that NWA pilots wouldn't do it for cheap! You are full of it ! Your NWA furloughees took jobs at Pinnacle, which just shows in my book that all you mainline types talk out of both sides of your face. (typical minnesota babble). When times are good, you don't want to have anything to do with the regional flying, times are bad and it's all about what you own or are entitled to. FYI: 5 year FO @ XJ is making $34.08/hr.

Also to fellow XJ'ers: Remember how during the contract and TA roadshows that our union was spewing the ALPA garbage about growth and how we needed to sign the TA to be viable for growth? Remember? Wychor, Gliadon, and Schirmers need to be tarred and feathered - and ridden out of town on a rail. If you still believe those guys are looking out for our best interests, you need a swift kick in the nuts. What happened to all the Spanjers " keeping the costs down, to bid for the 70 seaters"? B.S.

I think a monthly contribution to the RJDC is in order and I would encourage every XJ and regional pilot to get involved and educated. Maybe when you send in your RJDC payment, you can make a copy of the check or payment and forward it to Duane Woerthless... eventually he'll get the message.

The days of going to a mainline are over - for now. Stop listening to ALPA's cry to protect mainline, and worry more about protecting our jobs at the regional level.

 

[Redtailer]

avrodriverj85,

You and others like you obviously have no clue as to what is going on. If the facts don't support you, no problem, just make s**t up right?

If this is indicative of the RJDC then it is nothing more then a pack of used car salesmen trying to sell a Pacer. Low mileage, runs Great!!

You mentioned in a previous post that the rates are being negotiated, and that NWA pilots wouldn't do it for cheap! You are full of it ! Your NWA furloughees took jobs at Pinnacle, which just shows in my book that all you mainline types talk out of both sides of your face. (typical minnesota babble).

First off you obviously have no clue as to how many furloughees took those positions. Out of the 929 furloughees only a handful went to Pinnacle. Out of those, several of them got fed up with it and quit. And who are you to say what job someone should or should not take based on salary? That is a personal decision, and for some that may have been the only way to help feed their family and keep flying. Oh we are not worthy!!!

Secondly, you are trying to put words in my mouth that I never said. The NWA pilots will fly for whatever is negotiated nothing more, nothing less. That's why I have said several times before that I am not speculating what those rates will be. However, you are trying to set the payscales before the company has even had a chance to respond to the initial proposal! It's clear that you are just trying to get people to join the RJDC by using deceit.

When times are good, you don't want to have anything to do with the regional flying, times are bad and it's all about what you own or are entitled to.

Your a** must be hurting because you had to dig really far up there to pull that one out.... I have never heard any pilot at NWA say or publish anything to that affect. In fact, caring about what airplanes were being outsourced was the reason for the scope clause in the first place which was negotiated in '98!

Also to fellow XJ'ers: Remember how during the contract and TA roadshows that our union was spewing the ALPA garbage about growth and how we needed to sign the TA to be viable for growth? Remember? Wychor, Gliadon, and Schirmers need to be tarred and feathered - and ridden out of town on a rail. If you still believe those guys are looking out for our best interests, you need a swift kick in the nuts. What happened to all the Spanjers " keeping the costs down, to bid for the 70 seaters"? B.S.

If that is even true, and judging by your record of accuracy it is highly questionable, just how was Mesaba planning to get around the scope clause? Sounds more like wishful thinking than fact. Right now NWA ALPA is trying to get Mesaba and Pinnacle guys a flow up to the 70 seater with a NWA seniority number without a flowback, so how is that not in Mesaba pilots best interest? Oh, wait that doesn't fit in with the lies of the RJDC darn. I guess you will just have to twist that fact around to read "flow back only on top of the seniority lists."

If your number ever comes up please do us all a favor and stay on the Avro. NWA does not need or want folks like you in the ranks. Especially since "mainline types talk out of both sides of your face."

I think a monthly contribution to the RJDC is in order and I would encourage every XJ and regional pilot to get involved and educated.

LOL!!!

Educated by who, Baghdad Bob? "The rumors of the Americans taking over the airport are completely false. We are in full control."