Non-certified aircraft and known ice?

[Cat Driver]

There are no definitive one size fits all rules that we as pilots can say are the only way to do things.

I believe a lot of our opinions and flying habits change over time, what was once of no great concern can in time red flag you to say I don't think I want to do that anymore.

When I was younger I did things that were flat out stupid, as time passes I find myself becoming less willing to accept avoidable risk.

I am in the international airplane ferry business as part of what I and my partners do for a living.

When flying routes such as the North Atlantic and I look at the coastline and the ice berg filled fijords of Greenland I think to myself, how do the guys that ferry single engine stuff deal with what would happen if their only engine quit. I can not imagine what must ocassionally occupy their thoughts during the long hours flying over such unforgiving terrain and water, and am thankful for having more than one engine.

Reading about the hundreds of aircraft that have dissapparred never to be seen again on that route is quite sobering.

So all I am trying to say is we all make our own limits as to our risk management comfort level.

A few months ago someone sent me a picture of my crew and me with a guy who ferries single engine stuff across that north Atlantic, we were all holding for weather in Wick Scotland...the person that sent me the picture said that sadly that guy dissapparred several months later ferrying a single engine somewhere over or off Greenland.

In the final analysis we are individuals as well as pilots sharing the same life style.

Cat

 

[Say Again Over]

by Avbug:If you're trying to make a comparison to base jumping...that might be more on par with single engine IFR...

Absolutely no clue...

 

[mcjohn]

I'd like to see the statistics on # of singles disappearing on that route to # of multi's. I'm a pretty inexperienced pilot but I don't think having one engine operating on a twin would get you very far across the north atlantic. Of course is depends on what kind of twin and all but come on. I'd take a serious survival kit, with the special cold water suit, raft and all, over that extra engine on "some" twins anyday. I'd probably just go ahead and wear the suit if I had a single around me for the length of the trip.
Place where I instruct has a Piper Arrow from China that was flown from China to Florida (still has Chinese symbols on the side). Now that's some sh!t.

 

[Say Again Over]

Exactly, that's why most people with ferry experience will prefer to fly a light single across water than a light twin, twice the opportunity for something to go wrong.

 

[Hand Commander]

If operating single engine IFR at night, with ice, over water, and all the other possible worst cast scenarios implies a degree of stupidity, I think the customer should at least be given the courtesy of a disclaimer. Something like: " We as a company appreciate your business and hope for your continued patronage, however we feel obligated to inform you that although we've invested millions in the purchase and maintenance of highly reliable modern aircraft and have ensured comprehensive and recurrent training to all our pilots who have vast amounts of experience in complex weather and airspace navigation, the fact that you're trusting your life, your families lives, or your property to the operation of our aircraft's single engine is stupid. In fact you may be mildly retarded. We thank you and hope you and your crap make it there in one piece." This of course would apply to all fed ex feeders, air ambulances and 135 operators who use single engine aircraft.

Me at 500 hours: Worked for VFR 135 operator. Quickly volunteered for any night charters(nice call out fee $$$). This involved single engine Cessna's with a large part of the route over water.
Me at 1200 hours: Highly reliable single engine turbo prop goes T.U. while I'm dropping jumpers at 13500' over the airport on a severe clear day. Glided in OK and no damage (other than the engine).
Me now: Although I still like the single engine turbine airplane, I will never fly it full of passengers for a 135 outfit operating in all weather. I would fly it full of freight because I only want the risk associated to focus on myself and some boxes with only one screw up front.
I wouldn't call anybody who does what I won't do stupid, they just have a different risk management plan.
I get enough uneasy and jittery feelings by drinking very strong black coffee by the pot on an empty stomach.

 

[Cat Driver]

Yes we carry lots of survival stuff including rafts and survival suits as well as backup portable GPS and a Sat phone to name some.

As to flying a twin, that can vary from the 777 under ETOPS to small single engine twins that are minimal in single engine performance.

What we fly will fly on one and for a very long way, a single engine will not get you far if it quits.

As to most ferry pilots preferring a light single over a twin, O.K. I have not found that to be true, yeh I have met a few including the guy I mentioned in my last post however as I have stated we all decide what we feel best with.

By the way just for couriousity "say again over" how many single engine over ocean flights have you done ferrying an airplane?

Cat D.

 

[mcjohn]

Nice addition to your post there Hand Commander. It is a very personal thing and people should respect that.

Cat Driver, You hiring? I could really use a job. Seriously.

 

[PCL_128]

I can't believe this is even a debate. Of course flying a single-engine airplane in solid IMC is dangerous and stupid. To all that disagree, answer me this one question: what are you going to do when your one and only engine fails? Are you just going to pitch for Vg and hope like heck that when you pop out of the clouds at 200 AGL that a runway, road, or large field will be right there? Sorry, not very smart.

 

[Hand Commander]

Sorry, not very smart.

Yes! Yes! Thank you for another perfect addition to the disclaimer. Now we just need to get these "crazy stupid bastards" to write it up:

http://www.airlife.org/html/about.html

http://www.kenmoreair.com/sub_content.php?content_type=23

http://www.flightexpress.com/flight_express_fleet_cessna_210.htm

http://empireairlines.com/index.asp?PageId=976

http://www.caravanshares.com/

 

[FN FAL]

I can't believe this is even a debate. Of course flying a single-engine airplane in solid IMC is dangerous and stupid. To all that disagree, answer me this one question: what are you going to do when your one and only engine fails? Are you just going to pitch for Vg and hope like heck that when you pop out of the clouds at 200 AGL that a runway, road, or large field will be right there? Sorry, not very smart.

Probably more sedate than riding a vmc rollover.