No pressure fatigue calls?

[Abernathy]

Eat healthy, lots of fruits, never skip breakfast, and always have a 5hr energy avail.

You're such a goody two-shoes, dude.

 

[maxcackel]

My friends still at ASA tell me that ASA just put out some of the worst lines ever, that they are basically maxed out next month, and also the company put out a letter saying you'll fly it and like it.

Now they "update" their fatigue policy, and hide it behind the Safety Officer/former base chef pilot? And KS still gets to determine pay? Does anyone else see the irony here? They know they screwed themselves next month, and are turning up the intimidation in advance.

Where is your union?

If the union does not step up on this and smash it with a sledge hammer it will be my final straw with our union backing the company. Come on MEC send out something to your pilots and let us know you atleast disagree with it and give us the standard "we are looking into it".

 

[atlcrashpad]

FOM "The pilot must also
contact his/her Chief Pilot. It will be the responsibility of the Chief Pilot to
review the pilot’s fatigue situation."


-Hey, Ken.. It's me again. Can you tell me if I'm fatigued or not?

-I'm sick of you guys not wanting to fly!!! Now get out of my office and let me get back to sleeping and drooling on my desk.

Now dat bez funny bouyyyyyyyy....

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Gimme the 19C and D already. I'm calling in fatigued one month in advance. I just looked at my line and that's all it took.

 

[the palm]

Who cares what the fatigue policy is? If I'm tired then I'm tired. I decide if I'm fit to fly....not a chief pilot. Wanna dock my pay? Fine. I'll be sure to contact the FAA.

 

[sweptback]

If the union does not step up on this and smash it with a sledge hammer it will be my final straw with our union backing the company. Come on MEC send out something to your pilots and let us know you atleast disagree with it and give us the standard "we are looking into it".

I'm playing the devil's advocate here.

What is the issue?

You call out fatigued, you are removed from the trip. Right? Has anybody NOT been removed from a trip once they called fatigue? No? Ok then. As far as involving the FAA, they're not going to care because you called fatigued and were placed on rest. That's exactly what was supposed to happen!

Once you call fatigue, you are put on rest for at least 9 hours. Remember that. If one of the chief pilots calls you to harass you, YOU ARE UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO ANSWER. You are on rest. Also, review section 13.W of the contract about contact and notification. If they call you outside of the confines of 13.W, you can file a voucher for a free paid day off. That section is for everybody in the company, not just the chief pilots or scheduling. Answer the phone (remember two-way communication must take place), advise them that they have just violated section 13.W and that you will be filing a form for a day off, and then tell them you will return the call after your rest period is over. Better yet, tell them that you will stop by their office during your next duty period with an ALPA rep to witness the conversation. Know your rights!

Now, as for the pay, where in the contract does it say that you will be paid for a fatigue call? Oh wait, it doesn't. So what leg does the union stand on to pound their chest and demand that we get paid? Like it or not, we have yahoos gaming the system by calling in fatigued for their last round trip so they can go home early, even after they've had a long overnight and short duty days. This is not professional, and unfortunately it results in this hokey fatigue policy that we have now.

The company is being gracious enough to pay SOME fatigue calls. I do not say this as a company man, but let's be honest here, they don't have to do this. All they ask is that you fill out this fatigue survey form so they have an idea what caused the fatigue. Be honest and say that as a reserve pilot you are being worked to death and just flew a 5-day trip with 26 legs. They will understand, and you will probably get paid. If you call in fatigued for the first day of a 4-day trip after you just had 3 days off, you won't get paid. No surprise there.

If you don't get paid, well, if you are TRULY and HONESTLY fatigued, pay should not matter. This is the mark of a true professional pilot, doing the right thing even when it may not be the most convenient thing to do. By calling fatigue, you are telling the company that you are so tired and out of it that you seriously think your next flight could result in an incident or accident. If that is the case, the money you lose is nothing compared to what you think might have happened.

Remember, fatigue calls do not count as an occurrence, but you may or may not be paid. Sick calls are always paid as long as you have time in your sick bank, but are always an occurrence unless you FMLA it.

 

[FightingIrish]

Here is the problem. I and many others in the union are spending a lot of time right now defending pilots in 19A hearings over attendance and fatigue calls. Some are legit, and some are not. Here are two examples of recent hearings.

One involved a pilot who commutes from DFW. Shortly after he arrived in ATL to begin a reserve assignment, he was assigned a trip. It was a very easy trip. He said he was fatigued. He just began his duty period, and it wasn't a tough trip.

Another case involved a pilot who recently called in fatigued in the morning at an outstation. Turns out the fatigue involved too many adult beverages the night before and staying out too late.

The union is defending the legitimate fatigue calls. In fact, we have to defend the ones that are questionable too. A few bad apples are putting pressure on the rest of us.

Not being fatigued is a safety issue and is important. It is also important that SOME of us grow up and act like the responsible professional that you are being paid to be.

 

[Leroy Smith]

+1 for the good points that both Sweptback and Irish make.

Unfortunately, I think we have all been in the bell jar of small lift provider ops for so long, we dont have any idea what fatigued is anymore. 6 leg days, min rest, almost any hotel on a Fri or Sat night, following late nights with early shows...... Its to the point where we just take it for granted that we never feel 100%, but 95 or 90 or 10 or whatever is good enough. Frankly, most days you can just sleepwalk through without any problem. But will this next leg be the one where the defecation hits the rotary oscillator and are you ready physically and mentally if it does?? And not just to worry about someone getting hurt or bending some metal, but getting thrown under the bus by the company or the FAA as they cover their own.......

Feel like the CPs are gonna harass you if you call in fatigued? If you cant arrange the ALPA rep to come with, how about telling them that you will be recording your conversation with them: I wonder if their tone will be a little different??

 

[SLUF4]

But Irish, both of those guys may have been fatigued. In regard to operating the aircraft it doesn't matter how they came to be fatigued-they did the right thing. I agree that perhaps they should act like adults in order to not be in that situation (and not get paid for it), but you should give them props for doing the right thing once they realized they had screwed up. As for the company doing the right thing and ALPA not having a leg to stand on, I'd say it's the union's job to protect us from intimidation from CP's. I've never been in a fatigue hearing, but I've heard a lot about them from pilots I know and trust and what I heard was pretty shocking.

 

[wms]

Believe it or not, many fatigue calls are not fatigue. How mny fatigued pilots have called in fatigued on their last leg home. I'd be willing to bet, none. But because a few pilots do take advantage we are all under more scrutiny. Fatigue does happen, and if you are genuinely fatigued you can call in legitimately. Just be prepared to answer a few questions, no big deal. Also, the FAA has become interested in fatigue. One of the reasons why we are asked the circumstances behind it is for the FAA data base.

 

[Flybywire44]

Would someone PM the link to the FRF form that the Safety Dept sends out?

 

[FishandFly]

Believe it or not, many fatigue calls are not fatigue. How mny fatigued pilots have called in fatigued on their last leg home. I'd be willing to bet, none. But because a few pilots do take advantage we are all under more scrutiny. Fatigue does happen, and if you are genuinely fatigued you can call in legitimately. Just be prepared to answer a few questions, no big deal. Also, the FAA has become interested in fatigue. One of the reasons why we are asked the circumstances behind it is for the FAA data base.

The fact that pilots don't call in fatigued on their last leg means they should have called in fatigued on the outbound leg before the leg home.

Should anything happen that is contributed to pilot fatigue, I think the lawsuits that will follow have significant merit. Our CPO has openly hammered people for calling in fatigued for months and now they are officially fighting it.

For those of you who know about this kind of stuff, should the safety dept rif say that this report is also being forwarded to ASAP and the local FSDO. Can we openly document the interaction with the CPO?

 

[FightingIrish]

But Irish, both of those guys may have been fatigued. In regard to operating the aircraft it doesn't matter how they came to be fatigued-they did the right thing. I agree that perhaps they should act like adults in order to not be in that situation (and not get paid for it), but you should give them props for doing the right thing once they realized they had screwed up.

Doesn't the company then have the right to investigate and see if the pilot was being responsible by not showing up rested? Should these pilots just get a free pass even though it was their fault that they were fatigued?

The two cases IMHO are different. The outstation issue was I believe pilot induced fatigue. The Dallas commuter I believe was using fatigue as an issue because he was ticked off at the company. We do ourselves no favor by using fatigue as a way to "screw the man".

A few bad apples are making us all jump through the hoops. If you are legitimately fatigued, you don't have anything to worry about. The company is even paying some people when they don't have to.

 

[FightingIrish]

Believe it or not, many fatigue calls are not fatigue. How mny fatigued pilots have called in fatigued on their last leg home. I'd be willing to bet, none.

We had one recently that involved a commuter calling in fatigued after only 3 short legs and a long overnight with a late day duty in. Doing his last roundtrip would have caused him to miss his last flight home that night. The problem is, this puts even more pressure on the other pilots. Somebody has to do these flights. We do have a schedule to complete.

 

[SLUF4]

So what are the limits and who decides them? If a pilot is on a trip one leg to the outstation and gets there at 9am, there all day and has a 0500 duty in and can't sleep does he get paid? What if there are kids running up and down in the hall? What if you do an adrenaline inducing approach and have an 8 hour layover and can't sleep? Would you get paid then? There are way too many scenarios to discuss here of course. The point is that there are many ways to become fatigued even on your first day of a trip after being off a few weeks.

 

[COOPERVANE]

I like the terms "pilot induced fatigue" and "company/schedule induced fatigue"

If your baby is up all night screaming and you got NO sleep, are you fatigued? Of course. But that is "pilot" induced and not the fault of the company.

If at an overnight a soccer team keeps kicking the ball up and down the halls all night long and you get no rest, is that fatigue? Of course. But it is clearly not your fault. Hell, it's not really the company's fault either. But fatigued is fatigued.

If you stayed out too late drinking on an overnight, I might ask you to call in SICK. and IRRESPONSIBLE, but not fatigued.

Look, this is the ONE tool we have to say uncle, and it used to be no questions, no foul in the past. But we are screwing ourselves by abusing it.

 

[Tarzan]

Look, this is the ONE tool we have to say uncle, and it used to be no questions, no foul in the past. But we are screwing ourselves by abusing it.

Therein lies the problem.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

I like the terms "pilot induced fatigue" and "company/schedule induced fatigue"

If your baby is up all night screaming and you got NO sleep, are you fatigued? Of course. But that is "pilot" induced and not the fault of the company.

If at an overnight a soccer team keeps kicking the ball up and down the halls all night long and you get no rest, is that fatigue? Of course. But it is clearly not your fault. Hell, it's not really the company's fault either. But fatigued is fatigued.

If you stayed out too late drinking on an overnight, I might ask you to call in SICK. and IRRESPONSIBLE, but not fatigued.

Look, this is the ONE tool we have to say uncle, and it used to be no questions, no foul in the past. But we are screwing ourselves by abusing it.

The questions aren't to give you a hard time. The company is doing research to see how to mitigate the fatigue issues. They are even convening groups of reserve pilots to discuss the issue, and looking into software to evaluate trips to reduce circadian rhythm swaps.

Just because someone asks you about your fatigue, that doesn't mean you are being pressured, or disciplined. The safety department wants the form filled out to help with determining the risk to the operation.

Believe me folks, if the safety department feels that there is a substantial risk, things will get changed. The only way to determine the risk is to compile data. Be honest, and report what you're seeing out there, reserve guys. It will be a good tool for you to speak directly to the management about the issue.

 

[SLUF4]

I agree with ASA Aviator, but they have been collecting data for what, 2 years now? When are the changes coming?

 

[COOPERVANE]

ASA Aviator,

I completely agree with you. I don't think the company is doing it to give you a hard time. The company NEEDS to gather data about fatigue so they can avoid those types of schedules.

What I am saying is I HOPE the only ones getting a hearing (and given a hard time) are the ones who drank too much last night or had to pick their roommate up at a bar at 2 AM. Sorry....not valid

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Ahh, come on!! If you buy that..

I can look at a pairing and tell you in 5 seconds if it's fatiguing or not. So ASA is suddenly trying to convene panels and conduct "studies" on things that have been known for YEARS. It's a farce. They know if (when) they put one in the dirt they can fall back on this and say-

Hey, we tried but stimed by those bad boy pilots who wouldn't fill out the survey

I've got a suggestion- hire someone with an IQ over 100 who can put together a trip to save their life.

 

[sayrejm]

If it is just to gather data... then why can it not be anonymous? I asked around and found that Netjets does the same thing but it is supposedly anonymous. Anyway, just saying.

 

[SLUF4]

good point, but they probably want to see the pairing involved, maybe see what hotels are involved etc...in case there's a pattern

 

[LazyLightnin']

Ahh, come on!! If you buy that..

I can look at a pairing and tell you in 5 seconds if it's fatiguing or not. So ASA is suddenly trying to convene panels and conduct "studies" on things that have been known for YEARS. It's a farce. They know if (when) they put one in the dirt they can fall back on this and say-

Hey, we tried but stimed by those bad boy pilots who wouldn't fill out the survey

I've got a suggestion- hire someone with an IQ over 100 who can put together a trip to save their life.

Absolutely. The company couldn't care less about your health. You are, after all, just an employee number. The only things that matter to them are $$$ and CYA. If it ever happens to benefit the pilot group, it's merely coincidence

 

[JoeMerchant]

Ahh, come on!! If you buy that..

I can look at a pairing and tell you in 5 seconds if it's fatiguing or not. So ASA is suddenly trying to convene panels and conduct "studies" on things that have been known for YEARS. It's a farce. They know if (when) they put one in the dirt they can fall back on this and say-

Hey, we tried but stimed by those bad boy pilots who wouldn't fill out the survey

I've got a suggestion- hire someone with an IQ over 100 who can put together a trip to save their life.

So Oakum....Is a "red eye" from the west coast fatiguing? Should we ban them? Should a crew just be able to wave the "fatigue" flag before a "red eye" from the west coast?

What do we do with those who are abusing the "fatigue" flag? Give them a free pass?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Absolutely. The company couldn't care less about your health. You are, after all, just an employee number. The only things that matter to them are $$$ and CYA. If it ever happens to benefit the pilot group, it's merely coincidence

You're an idiot if you don't think the company cares about fatigue induced incidents. From a cost issue, don't you think they worry about accidents? An accident costs far more than giving you rest. The issue is those who abuse the fatigue issue for personal reasons....what do we do about them?

 

[LazyLightnin']

You're an idiot if you don't think the company cares about fatigue induced incidents. From a cost issue, don't you think they worry about accidents? An accident costs far more than giving you rest. The issue is those who abuse the fatigue issue for personal reasons....what do we do about them?

Thank you for further proving my point, JB. Reading comprehension is a good train. You should get on it.

 

[Tarzan]

You're an idiot if you don't think the company cares about fatigue induced incidents. From a cost issue, don't you think they worry about accidents? An accident costs far more than giving you rest. The issue is those who abuse the fatigue issue for personal reasons....what do we do about them?

Don't forget to factor in productivity. A guy at work is more cost effective than one who is sick for a few weeks. The company is still paying taxes and bennies while he isn't working.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Thank you for further proving my point, JB. Reading comprehension is a good train. You should get on it.

So you agree that the company doesn't want pilots being fatigued? Somehow I doubt that is what you think....

 

[LazyLightnin']

So you agree that the company doesn't want pilots being fatigued? Somehow I doubt that is what you think....

I agree that the company wants to avoid something as devastating to the bank account as a crash. At the same time, the company wants the flight completed. We've all been in a situation where we were just fatigued enough to successfully complete a flight and at the same time narrowly avoid a major violation.

The company has no right to tell me when to put my career on the line. And the fact that they care about fatigue, as we do, is merely coincidental.

It's all about $$$ for them. You have to watch out for #1.