NO please at Tranny!!

[airline#5]

I am so sick of all you satistied tranny types, mostly capt.'s that think that pay rates are not the issue. Total BS!!! It is the main issue for FO's who will stay that way for a long time. $hit pay/decent schedule or good pay/ bad schedule. I learned to live with both, but this place wants to pay fo's terribly and bend em over with bad work rules too.....NO

 

[ATLDRVR]

So are you saying if they paid you more you would be ok with crap work rules? Because there is more to this contract than just pay.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

Anyone else not able to access the NPA web site?

 

[FIREMAN]

Anyone else not able to access the NPA web site?

More NPA spinning. "sorry can not post TA2 due to web site problems so voting will be delayed longer"

 

[Lear70]

That likely means they're uploading the new page and checking links. They pull it down every time they upload new information.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

We the FO have the power to vote it down. We need to educate any FO that thiinks this is a good deal.

 

[Murphy]

Reserve guarantee was down to 70 hours in the LAFO. That's below industry standard. Min guarantee for reserves at Continental and Delta get 5 hours more guarantee than line holders. Continental reserve pilots are guaranteed 12 days off for either 76 or 72 hours depending on whether they are Reserve A or B. Reserves also have daily open time pickup periods. The way I read it, Continental reserves are released to their next telephone availability period when they get back from a trip. Compare those rules to what can happen to you at AirTran when you get back from an assignment. It is worth everyone's time to read other airline contracts. Even watered down post 9/11 and bankruptcy stripped contracts have better work rules than what we are trying to be sold. Don't be led down the primrose path.

 

[ASA]

Leonard and his guys are smart businessmen. They are pleased when pilots quit. They would love to see the most senior pilot here be a 5-year guy. Of course that's not going to happen. The senior guys will stay. On the other hand, they don't particularly like to see first or second year guys quit, because they probably haven't recouped training/new hire costs yet.

But to make this a not-so-pleasant place to work and to have 3-5 year guys quit to go to the "majors" is a desirable situation for this management. Get a new guy in, keep the rates low. Let the "majors" deal with senior, happy pilots, making a lot of money. We'll keep this place relatively junior, people who just sort of "ended up" at AirTran.

Leonard, Kolski, not good guys. But they know how to make themselves an extra million or two every time. And a weak pilot group lets them do it.

 

[Diesel-9]

INfo from last fall. May be some updates. Please chime in. Reserve Min. Monthly Guarantee. DAL/UAL 70, AAA 72, AMR 73, NWA/ALA 75, CAL 76, AWA 77. Min Duty period/Trip rig. DAL 5:15/1:3.5, NWA 5.00/1:3.75, AAA 5.00/1:3.5, UAL 5.00/1:4(UAL LCO has no duty rig :-(, AMR 3.00/1:3.5, CAL none/1:4 :-( CAL needs to raise the bar on workrules. Hasn't it been over 10 years since the 2nd CH-11? AMR/NWA have single duty period minimums of 5.00/4:15.

 

[FIREMAN]

"There was a power outage last night during a storm and the NPA web site server is down. We are making repairs and hope to have it up later today. Once the site is up, the recent August TA will be posted with the associated comparison charts. Also, there will be a video explaining highlights and how and why we got to this TA. We will email you with links when the web site is back up"


ie- we do not want you to read the TA2 without our spin video


the site was down well befor the storms in ATL.

 

[Kharma Police]

Time to see what ALPA has to offer.

 

[PCL_128]

Time to see what ALPA has to offer.

Exactly.

 

[FIREMAN]

Time to see what ALPA has to offer.

I think the NPA got a lot of help from ALPA in the begining stages evan the lawer at the table is ALPA. Not sure whatelse they could bring to the table.

 

[PCL_128]

I think the NPA got a lot of help from ALPA in the begining stages evan the lawer at the table is ALPA. Not sure whatelse they could bring to the table.

The attorney at the table isn't current ALPA. He's the retired Director of Representation from ALPA. He's now a freelance consultant. And from what I hear, he's frustrated like hell because the NPA leadership won't listen to a thing he has to say.

ALPA's staff did provide a lot of help and continues to provide some services to the NPA on a contract basis. However, much like the attorney, I hear that ALPA's staff in Herndon is frustrated because their advice and help isn't being properly utilized.

Also, I think it's very telling the NPA's Communications Specialist on staff just left for a position at ALPA. You think maybe she sees something that the rest of us don't?

 

[Kharma Police]

If we were to get acquired by an ALPA airline, we would at least (maybe) have at little bit more protection then a union formed by a certain group of individuals from Eastern.

 

[twepilot]

did I read that correct....Maybe I'm hallucinating...

RV

 

[NuGuy]

AMR/NWA have single duty period minimums of 5.00/4:15.

Hey all,

This doesn't tell the whole story. NWA's "minimum day" is actually an average minimum day of 5 hours, with all the happy consequences that brings.

Think sitting at the hotel in Flint for 30 hours on your last day, to fly one leg back to DTW just in time to miss your last flight home at 11:30pm.

Details count..."average" or "modified" minimum days suck a$$. Don't fall for it!

Nu

 

[jneely]

I am so sick of all you satistied tranny types, mostly capt.'s that think that pay rates are not the issue. Total BS!!! It is the main issue for FO's who will stay that way for a long time. $hit pay/decent schedule or good pay/ bad schedule. I learned to live with both, but this place wants to pay fo's terribly and bend em over with bad work rules too.....NO

You my friend sound like you will never by happy. Please take your self to the other airline where you will happy. You sir should not be knocking on the captains. I have not spoken to one that is not going to vote this thing down, to protect your unhappy a$$. Like I said if you are this unhappy leave.

 

[Lear70]

Hey guys, there's absolutely NO need to be attacking EACH OTHER... especially when you're really on the same page!

Creating animosity in the ranks will only worsen our position when you might well need to be walking the picket line right beside each other.

Solidarity takes SO much effort to build, and so little to tear down. We ALL need EACH OTHER!

I've spoken to a FEW Captains who will likely vote yes. They're few and far between, most are as upset and angry as the rest of us. Educate each other, download the new rebuttal bulletpoint when it's done (I'll update everyone), and pass them out.

Talk about it in the crew rooms with each other, even if you agree. Other people who may not know and may not want to talk about it will hear you and might grab a copy then pass it along.

One person at a time, one vote at a time, one battle at a time... Stay the course.

Sorry for the rant, I'll put the soapbox away now. :beer:

 

[SkiFishFly]

I don't think ALPA will help any if we still don't get strong local leadership. The NPA would be great if we just had some strong leaders with a backbone step up and succeed at running for office.
I also think we should start a petition and get membership ratification voted into place. That will stop backdoor side deals.

 

[wood pecker]

Did anyone else read the article posted by FIREMAN about Eastern being reborn by a current airline? Good prediction FIREMAN or at least good for the fresh rumor mill.

 

[Lear70]

I don't think ALPA will help any if we still don't get strong local leadership. The NPA would be great if we just had some strong leaders with a backbone step up and succeed at running for office.

Absolutely. Question is WHO...? Several people talking about running, it's going to be a crazy race.

I also think we should start a petition and get membership ratification voted into place. That will stop backdoor side deals.

Still working on it, buddy.

Hopefully coming back to work next week after the holiday weekend (I bid for it off and got it, can't believe it), and will be distributing the petition to the dozen guys who offered to help get signatures.

Once we have the 15% required to present it, it will go to vote, right about the same time we are running nominations for the president's office, assuming the recall petition goes through.

Even if I don't end up in office in some kind of capacity, I'm going to make sure ALL the pilots have a say in ANYTHING that affects their lives or livelihoods with the NPA. It's OUR union, and we absolutely MUST have either Leadership that WILL do as the pilots direct or a safety net to keep them from actively acting AGAINST our best interests as has happened recently.

 

[dh82dvr]

I will vote NO. All the changes just give back what we already have.

 

[Critter717]

You my friend sound like you will never by happy. Please take your self to the other airline where you will happy. You sir should not be knocking on the captains. I have not spoken to one that is not going to vote this thing down, to protect your unhappy a$$. Like I said if you are this unhappy leave.

I could not agree more. If an FO or Captain is not happy then leave.

Starting pay when I hired on was 25k a year. I would love to see you six month ass clowns put a little time in before you decide to burn the place down.

The fundamental issues are Valujet/Original AirTran guys with no real union experience attempting to operate the NPA. Our negotiating committee was made up of 2 military guys- Skipper who has a horrible trsack record and Howard who has NEVER negotiated anything prior to this. We have very talented guys who were not allowed to participate on any level because the VJ/AT guys keeep a strangle hold on the NPA.

An in house union is the answer, ALPA will never care about a pilot group with such small numbers.

If you want to be a Captain put the time and and stick around. If not, carry your ass on down the road.
Please let me know if you find an airline that will be responsible for your happiness.

 

[SLEDNECK]

I don't think ALPA will help any if we still don't get strong local leadership. The NPA would be great if we just had some strong leaders with a backbone step up and succeed at running for office.
I also think we should start a petition and get membership ratification voted into place. That will stop backdoor side deals.

True, to a certain point. AP wouldn't have been able to sign that crazy LOA for the christmas debacle if we were under the ALPA umbrella at the time. Also, ALPA has a lot better bennys for loss of medical and other emergencies than the NPA. Its not JUST the NPA leadership, but the lack of whats behind it, and the twisted heirchy they have. A few self served people that make up the BOD have too much control over the masses. IF the BOD truely represents everyone, it might work. It obviously doesn't here, and the BOD is not a true representitive of the pilot group. Getting memrat is something that we would have already had under ALPA. I fully support it, but I also support getting ALPA. THere needs to be a "shake-up", and maybe by getting ALPA on the property it would send a clear message and we could gain some better benefits.

 

[gt1900]

As much as I don't like to admit it.. Airline #5 has a point with the FO rates... They are so low its not even funny... Ive been at AAI for a while, and it is rediculous what they are trying to get us to pass... These TA'd FO rates don't even come close to Frontiers or Alaskas recessionary FO rates... I don't want this to turn into a Capt vs. FO fight, because Im happy as an FO at airtran.. But, at least give us the rates that our peers at other, comperable company's make... You can bet your @ss that Alaska is watching our negotiations very, very close... Remember, they used to make $104/hr third year at Alaska, now its $73/hr.. I really don't see why AAI can't pay FO's around $75/hr for third year pay, topping out around $80/hr.. BTW, that is still below industry average..... The fast upgrades are going away.. Guys can plan on seing upgrade go to 4, 5, or most likely even 6 years.... So, the fast upgrade excuse doesn't work anymore... Lets not fight amongst ourselves, this is the time to pull together and get a good contract... BTW. I'm not happy with the Capt. rates either. There is no reason to let them give us a 15 yr pay scale.. Knock the bottom 4 years off they scale, make the $183/hr the top 12yr pay, and then add $5/hr to the FO rates and I think we would have a contract that both the pilots, and company could live happily with..

 

[MINIME]

I could not agree more. If an FO or Captain is not happy then leave.


The fundamental issues are Valujet/Original AirTran guys with no real union experience attempting to operate the NPA. Our negotiating committee was made up of 2 military guys- Skipper who has a horrible trsack record and Howard who has NEVER negotiated anything prior to this. We have very talented guys who were not allowed to participate on any level because the VJ/AT guys keeep a strangle hold on the NPA.


Sorry to chime in again, but this might be your problem right here as stated above. As I see your proposed rates, both sides need to come up. Especially the FO rates and the lower seniority CA rates. They are nowhere near what other compatible profitable airlines are at, even with their concessionary rates. Sounds like your Union and your management are trying to do quite a psychological job on your group. Give you a real bad contract to slowly work you into just a bad concessionary contract.

Yes, Alaska and everyone else who will be negotiating soon is or should be watching what AAI is doing. To not do so would be an irresponsibility to our profession and careers.

Just food for thought, as of next year, I believe UPS second year FO pay is $126 per hour. Most junior person on the seniority list at SWA gets 15 days off per contract. Best of luck guys.....

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

Reading this entire sordid thread reminds me of why I am such a big Tranny supporter. I love pilots that realize that "industry standard" is all the higher they should shoot for.

Looking through this thread, I haven't seen one Tranny pilot advocating "industry leading" pay, benefits, or work rules. Now that's the type of pilot group I am all about!

Sure, "industry standard" has been brought down to delivery truck driver wages thanks to the rash of bankruptcies. But let's face it, todays industry standard is basically all the higher airlines like Tranny can pay so that they can keep paying the big bucks to retain the most important part of the operation - the executives.

Joe Leonard is pure gold. Once again, a shout out to all my Tranny boys for doing the right thing and settling for mediocrity at best.

Tranny pilots - leading the way in lowering the bar.

Keep up the good work!

 

[BR715]

Hold the fort for a second. I might get crucified for my viewpoints here but hear me out. We first need to realize that we work for a carrier that makes as much in a year as Southwest makes in 1 quarter. To me industry standard is ok with me. The FO's are getting a raise of 10 dollars a year, not bad considering I got paid old contract rates on a crappy dc-9. If everyone is getting a raise and keeping the same work rules we have now then I think it is in our best interest to see the company continue to grow and get more aircraft. Considering voting for it.

 

[Kharma Police]

Reading this entire sordid thread reminds me of why I am such a big Tranny supporter. I love pilots that realize that "industry standard" is all the higher they should shoot for.

Looking through this thread, I haven't seen one Tranny pilot advocating "industry leading" pay, benefits, or work rules. Now that's the type of pilot group I am all about!

Sure, "industry standard" has been brought down to delivery truck driver wages thanks to the rash of bankruptcies. But let's face it, todays industry standard is basically all the higher airlines like Tranny can pay so that they can keep paying the big bucks to retain the most important part of the operation - the executives.

Joe Leonard is pure gold. Once again, a shout out to all my Tranny boys for doing the right thing and settling for mediocrity at best.

Tranny pilots - leading the way in lowering the bar.

Keep up the good work!

Instructor Dude?