No more Europe flights

[JJET44]

Just curious,
Have many flight departments stop flying into Europe or are planing on stopping or reducing flights due to ETS and the price of fuel?
At my current company we bought a challenger several years ago with plans to start flying over but soon after fuel prices started to skyrocket and ETS was proposed and we changed our minds.
My last company stopped going over to Europe just before I was hired for the same reason.
At both companies the mind set is why spend upwards of $40,000 per trip when you could buy a 1st class ticket for around $5'000.

 

[Bleeds On]

I thought I'd read that, although it's a scam, it wasn't going to add an unbearable amount to the trip. Is anyone using a reporting company or just doing it yourself?

 

[JJET44]

I was just in recurrent with an owner-operator and he said that The EU is charging or going to charge operators carbon cridits for the whole trip not just for the portion flown in the EU........example if you burn 15,000 lbs for a trip from TEB to London, they charge you for the full 15,0000lbs. He also said they over estimate burns. He had a trip from TEB to somewhere in the EU and they estimated his burn in a Challenger 601 was 21,000lbs. His 601 only holds about 17,700lbs.
Now I believe it's up to you to make any and all corrections.

 

[Rick1128]

Maybe its time we start charging all the European airlines road tax on their whole flight. Two can play the same game. We've been the nice guy way too long.

 

[JJET44]

How about a $50 customs fee for all non US citizens upon entry.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Just curious,
Have many flight departments stop flying into Europe or are planing on stopping or reducing flights due to ETS and the price of fuel?
At my current company we bought a challenger several years ago with plans to start flying over but soon after fuel prices started to skyrocket and ETS was proposed and we changed our minds.
My last company stopped going over to Europe just before I was hired for the same reason.
At both companies the mind set is why spend upwards of $40,000 per trip when you could buy a 1st class ticket for around $5'000.

Then why own your own jet?...You can take the airlines anywhere. You can go Southwest Airlines NY-LA for $450...why take the Challenger at $25,000?

Fuel is very expensive in Europe...and its expected that we shop it carefully and suggest alternates as needed...but the day we hangar the jet and the boss takes United Airlines because its cheaper (ya think??)....I would be polishing up that resume.

Gripe and moan and complain about the costs?...somewhat normal...actually cancelling trips and taking the airlines?...somewhat concerning.

 

[Bleeds On]

According to ProPilot mag(yeah I read it sometimes), each credit is going for $21.50 and a 2500 lb/hr fuel burn costs you about 3-4 credits/hour. Then the compliance costs. Yeah, a total scam. So then....take our last trip for example. Iceland, Norway, Russia...THEN the EU. Where do they start keeping tabs for that? This could get all sorts of ridiculous.

 

[gern_blanston]

...the day we hangar the jet and the boss takes United Airlines because its cheaper (ya think??)....I would be polishing up that resume.

Gripe and moan and complain about the costs?...somewhat normal...actually cancelling trips and taking the airlines?...somewhat concerning.

What he said.

 

[rice]

There are ways to beat the EU ETS, 135 being one of them. Not advocating it but worth looking into for some 91 operators.

 

[JJET44]

You're absolutely right G200. I'll tell the boss to pack it up and sell the airplane because we shouldn't use the company jet on domestic trips only. C-mon Man!!! We fly a lot. I'm not worried.

 

[gern_blanston]

You're absolutely right G200. I'll tell the boss to pack it up and sell the airplane because we shouldn't use the company jet on domestic trips only.

Well you gotta' admit that it does sound pretty bizarre when you tell a bunch of yo-yos that you don't know (us) that two companies in a row have had the coin and the desire to buy and operate an old Challenger and then both change their minds and cheap-out over a couple thousand extra bucks for fuel on Europe trips that they supposedly bought the jets for in the 1st place, and then expect us not to compare you to our own organizations; organizations that react like, uh, "Hey, Gern... I know it's gonna' cost us $70 grand instead of $68 grand to do our scheduled Paris run on the 12th... See you on the 12th."
Definitely a non sequitur you've got goin' there.

 

[X-rated]

The problem is there are too many owners who can't really afford these airplanes, so they buy and old airplane and try to make their flight department work on a shoestring budget. I fly to Europe a couple times a month and have never heard a single complaint about any legitimate operating expense. It costs what it costs. Maybe the airline is the best choice for your owner, but I doubt it. I don't know how old or inexpensive your Challenger was to purchase, but I suspect when you consider the capital cost and fixed costs, it won't makes sense to leave the airplane sitting in the hangar instead of paying the marginally higher direct operating cost. Yes, it's more expensive to operate to Europe, but paying for the airplane, hangar, insurance, maintenance and flight department only to then jump on United Airlines to save a dollar is just insane!

Without question, the airlines are far cheaper both domestically and internationally. The question is why did your owner buy an airplane in the first plance? If he was trying to save some money, you're in serious trouble.

 

[BoilerUP]

If they are gonna gig you for the whole trip from the US, and costs are a concern, why not just tech stop in Shannon and get their cheaper fuel and start the ETS clock there?

Don't forget the last two letters of ETS stand for "trading scheme"...

 

[con-pilot]

If they are gonna gig you for the whole trip from the US, and costs are a concern, why not just tech stop in Shannon and get their cheaper fuel and start the ETS clock there?

Don't forget the last two letters of ETS stand for "trading scheme"...

Really should stand for 'theving scheme'...

 

[Ben Stiller]

EINN won't do it...you must land in EGNS. You're trip will begin there and save tons of $$. Only a matter of time until they plug that gap I'm sure.

 

[AA717driver]

EINN won't do it...you must land in EGNS. You're trip will begin there and save tons of $$. Only a matter of time until they plug that gap I'm sure.

I don't know. There are a whole lot of "gaps" extant in the IOM that have, so far, gone un-plugged.

Here's hoping!

TC

 

[JJET44]

Looks like the Chinese Gov. Just kicked Airbus in the nu+$ over ETS

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c4ce5aa0-9e4b-11e0-8e61-00144feabdc0.html

 

[jet2work]

If anyone can put an end to the ETS madness, it will have to be the Chinese. They are not infected with political correctness and don't care what the French and Germans think of them (for good reason too). As for Europe, other than sightseeing or taking personal delivery of your new Porshe and ringing it out on the autobahn, why go? The business opportunity there pales in comparison to Asia.

Maybe we can make the tax retroactive and charge the Europeans for all the emissions produced by the last two world wars they hosted.

 

[gern_blanston]

Maybe we can make the tax retroactive and charge the Europeans for all the emissions produced by the last two world wars they hosted.

Post of the month. Outstanding.

 

[G100driver]

Does anyone know how much more a 2100 nm flight into to EU will cost?

Also, BTW, I cannot believe that anyone who can own a challenger would have a problem with affording these costs ... We are talking about a couple bottles of good wine here ...

 

[G100driver]

If anyone can put an end to the ETS madness, it will have to be the Chinese. They are not infected with political correctness and don't care what the French and Germans think of them (for good reason too). As for Europe, other than sightseeing or taking personal delivery of your new Porshe and ringing it out on the autobahn, why go? The business opportunity there pales in comparison to Asia.

Maybe we can make the tax retroactive and charge the Europeans for all the emissions produced by the last two world wars they hosted.

Good idea ... I know my boss leans on the pilots when seeking business advice ....:erm:

 

[Jetdriver69]

If anything, we are flying more to Europe. But when we actually have to start paying ETS, what will they do with the money? We are registered in the UK, so our fees will probably go to pay down THEIR national debt.

 

[jet2work]

Good idea ... I know my boss leans on the pilots when seeking business advice ....:erm:

Excellent! Are you hiring? I'm getting tired of working for am employer who was always choosing the destinations for me. :laugh:

On a more serious note. If your company is not focusing on Asia (other than for the aforementioned leisure travel), you may not have to worry about flying internationally for too much longer. Between ETS, SMS, SAFA checks, outrageous fuel prices and the elimination of VAT recovery, Eurocontrol Nav charges, potentially onerous equipment requirements (CPDLC, ADS-B), and an occasional volcanic eruption, one might get the idea that they do not want to do business with you.

 

[G100driver]

Excellent! Are you hiring? I'm getting tired of working for am employer who was always choosing the destinations for me. :laugh:

On a more serious note. If your company is not focusing on Asia (other than for the aforementioned leisure travel), you may not have to worry about flying internationally for too much longer. Between ETS, SMS, SAFA checks, outrageous fuel prices and the elimination of VAT recovery, Eurocontrol Nav charges, potentially onerous equipment requirements (CPDLC, ADS-B), and an occasional volcanic eruption, one might get the idea that they do not want to do business with you.

While you are correct ... the guy in the back could care less. He has us to take care of that BS for him. When the bills get too expensive, he will stop flying there.

 

[JJET44]

Does anyone know how much more a 2100 nm flight into to EU will cost?

Also, BTW, I cannot believe that anyone who can own a challenger would have a problem with affording these costs ... We are talking about a couple bottles of good wine here ...

Look....my company is a fortune 500 company. We can afford to fly to Europe but our Officers choose not to simply because we are headquartered in a major metropolitan city on the east cost with many airlines, domestic and foreign serving. Our people don't need to go anywhere other then the most major cities in Europe. Therefore, they choose to go at $4000.00 for first class instead of paying $50,0000 on the jet. Simple economics!!
For those who ask why we have a jet at all and why don't our people just take the airlines domestically........you're comparing apples to oranges. Have you ever flown first class internationally? Not the same as domestic first class especially on Luftansa, Virgin, or Air France. Also international flights usually don't delay because of scheduling delays or late arriving equipment.
On last point. My company does very little overseas so it's not a big deal.

 

[G100driver]

Jet, I agree with everything you are saying ... but you do not fly your aircraft to Europe because of an ETS or high fuel prices. Those ad a nominal expense to 25 hour trip to Europe. It is because of your 1st statement ... simple economics ... a 1st class ticket is cheap compared to operating your own aircraft.

 

[JJET44]

Jet, I agree with everything you are saying ... but you do not fly your aircraft to Europe because of an ETS or high fuel prices. Those ad a nominal expense to 25 hour trip to Europe. It is because of your 1st statement ... simple economics ... a 1st class ticket is cheap compared to operating your own aircraft.

Ok, you're right. I left out user fees, permits and everything else that is above and beyond what we have to pay to operate within the US. If we were to operate into Eupore it would only be a few times a year and we would most likely use Universial or Airink for all planning (whe're just a 2 pilot department.) That in itself will cost upwards of $6000.00.

I guess I was being very narrow minded when I started this post. Most who fly the corporate jet over may not have it as easy as major city to major city with one lag each direction as our folks have it and I know that some companies make multiple stops on trips. You guys probably take over multiple people on these trips too.
My point, it just dosen't fit into my companys' game plan and at the time i started tnis post i didn't think about others plans.

 

[gern_blanston]

I guess I was being very narrow minded when I started this post.
...My point, it just dosen't fit into my companys' game plan and at the time i started tnis post i didn't think about others plans.

OK, but this is what you said at the beginning of the thread, so you actually WERE thinking about others' plans. I mean that's what you asked about, right? Others' plans.

...we bought a challenger several years ago with plans to start flying over but soon after fuel prices started to skyrocket and ETS was proposed and we changed our minds.
My last company stopped going over to Europe just before I was hired for the same reason.

So you can see where the confusion came from.
And there is much happiness and jubilation here that you work for a 2-person Fortune 500 company flight department that can fly the old Challenger that they bought to go to Europe, to Europe, anytime they want, except that they don't want to, just like your last company, which quit going to Europe before ETS or... wait... what was this thread about again?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Ok, you're right. I left out user fees, permits and everything else that is above and beyond what we have to pay to operate within the US. If we were to operate into Eupore it would only be a few times a year and we would most likely use Universial or Airink for all planning (whe're just a 2 pilot department.) That in itself will cost upwards of $6000.00.

Why would you use Universal to go to Europe?

We do all our own through ARINC. We are a 3 pilot department and if you go once a year or 45x a year its absurd to pay Universal to do planning to Europe that would take you less than an hour....unless you are not worried about cost. Worry about $300? in EU-ETS fees yet drop 6K on a flight plan and a hotel reservation through Universal?

As dorked up as Europe is right now I bet you will wait a long time to see anything truly come of EU-ETS also. Certainly not enough to cancel trips over the expense right now.

You seemed to ask about something absurd (cost of airline tickets vs running and old Challenger) then get huffy when you didn't like what you heard.

Anyhow, glad you understand your company plan etc (thats all that matters?) and at the end of the day I would certainly not complain about skipping Europe runs in a Challenger 600...

 

[jet2work]

Don't get me wrong. I loves me some Arinc. But I believe that we pay in excess of 11K a year for the plan we are on. While that seems outrageous, I get my money's worth out of them almost daily. You do have to watch them on some international planning, but conversely, I have had them call me up before a trip to ask me if I had obtained something (that I wasn't aware I even needed). At times, they are like having your own dispatch when you are a small operator. A few trips to Europe or Asia and you will have paid your subscription fee. The do not always negate the need for a handler, but they can help you out both internationally and domestically.