No more CHQ and GJs Jumpseaters

[h25b]

Perhaps you should read my post before you reply to it. You look awfully silly asking a question that was answered already.



Doesn't anyone read posts before they reply anymore?

Now you're going too far... Calling me "silly" ???

Everyone else must have missed the part where you answered the question as well and we have just moved on to confirming you're full of it. I'm done...

You've got a lot to learn.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Doesn't anyone read posts before they reply anymore?

Nah, reading your posts really doesn't supply anything approaching information, so why should I read them? You don't read MINE, as you continue to say "you" and "your contract" etc. in response to my posts, when I already pointed out to you that I don't work for CHQ, have never worked for CHQ, am not subject to CHQ's contract, never have been subject to CHQ's contract, and probably won't ever work for CHQ.

But skimming your mostly senseless blabber is vaguely entertaining, so please keep peppering this board with your half-truths, fabrications, and finger-pointing. Better still, keep calling other people "silly", since you have no concept of the old "pot calling the kettle black" thing.

 

[brew3departure]

Holier than thou?

Wow...five pages and still going.

I'm going to try to address the people who have written things I disagree with, but with the pages of *hit, it's going to take a little while.

Funny that the original post was talking about jumpseating. Unless you're a scab, and honestly, the only way I would know is if you came up to the cockpit and told me, give me a break. People talk a good game on here, but when it comes to execution, if you want to actually deny the jumpseat to every CHQ and g-ojets guy who walks up, be my guest. It's still a small industry, word gets around, and a big war starts.

People are just trying to get to work. Why is this so difficult to understand?

I know Mesa is a pretty popular group to bash -- but as many forget, Mesa is ALPA, right? What did ALPA do to prevent Freedom? Nothing. So, okay, I can hear the argument now - they were allowed to form Freedom because the _contract_ allowed it to happen. Fine - lesson learned, right? All contracts that are signed from now on have to have some clause to prevent that sort of thing.

Hmm...last time I checked, CHQ got that - and they paid _dearly_ for it. How much compensation was given up? I have no idea, but it was enormous.

So, BVT1151, you're just off base on this one. To say that the CHQ pilots didn't do anything to stop Republic? Or that they _waited_ and then reacted? The pilots were in CONTRACT negotiations at the time! I've written this several times on here before -- but would you argue that it would be BETTER for everyone if Republic was an alter-ego airline like g-ojets is going to be?

It's easy for Comair folks to throw stones. You guys set the almighty bar high - but you truly opened the floodgates for the portfolio concept that Delta and many others have adapted. I remember when United had Air Wisconsin, UFS, and Great Lakes...and that was _it_. Last I checked, Airways has 8 or 9 airlines that use the express banner, and it's just about that many for United also. Thanks. You got your pay raise because you struck - an admirable accomplishment. But don't think for a minute that some of the blame for all of this doesn't lie with you. What did _you_ do to prevent Delta outsourcing it's regional flying?
If you're going to chastise the CHQ pilot group for "allowing Republic to happen" - don't you, then, deserve a lion's share of the blame for Skywest, ACA/ACJet, Mesa, CHQ, and Shuttle flying for mother Delta? It doesn't all come down to pay - you guys got your pay, and really, I am happy for you. This argument is flawed though - and it's just as crazy to blame you for striking as it is for you to blame CHQ for Republic.

Fuelflow - don't exert your bitterness on making a horrible career decision on all of us. You reap what you sow...

The 170 and 190 rates are bad. Do I think they will get better? Yeah, I do. I don't know what would be enough to satisfy people on here. Maybe we'll find out in a few years.

Drewblows and the inthewind or inthemind guy - whoever that is. You don't want to come to CHQ? Good - no one is forcing you. Does it make you feel better to come on here and say "Yeah, I interviewed there but I didn't go." Good for you, do you want a cookie? I hope you're happy flying 135 or anywhere else. Seriously, though, no one on here cares about your decision to interview and _not_ accept.

I'm not looking to ignite another flame war here. The ridiculous subject of this thread pulled me in, and I guess that's why we love Flightinfo. Some moron who's a student in a 152 can post something inflammatory and uninformed, and the flame wars begin. And I'm just as guilty as everyone else.

-brew3

 

[Vandelay]

Man... those are impressive FO payscales for 190s.... I think most get paid more for flying 50 seaters.

Essentially what happened when Chitaco took the contract was they sold out all their future pilots (FOs) since everyone that voted for that thing knew they would be captains in short period of time with that kind of contract.

 

[Corbon]

Man... those are impressive FO payscales for 190s.... I think most get paid more for flying 50 seaters.

Essentially what happened when Chitaco took the contract was they sold out all their future pilots (FOs) since everyone that voted for that thing knew they would be captains in short period of time with that kind of contract.

Nooooo...is that what we did? Thanks for explaining it to me. I never heard it explained with such detail like that before. I hate myself now that I realize what I have done.

 

[StarChecker]

Essentially what happened when Chitaco took the contract was they sold out all their future pilots (FOs) since everyone that voted for that thing knew they would be captains in short period of time with that kind of contract.

It's amazing how every CHQ critic knows everything that's going on inside our company. They know the union leaders involved, the management people involved and their personalities and motivations.

I wouldn't dare make any assumptions about what's going on over at CMR, or ExpressJet, or Mesa, or anyplace else. I have no idea what was going on or who was involved when these contracts where negotiated. So please, unless you know what you're talking about...STFU. Thanks a bunch.

 

[AAflyer]

ALPA "solely?" What about the APA and the IACP (prior to CAL pilots going ALPA...they were independent)? Should they have not be accused with blame as well since AA and CAL have a veritable armada of RJ's?

-Neal

Neal,

It was ALPA who let the cat out of the bag, then IACP, lastly APA conceeded in the 97 contract. Eagle was one of the last airlines to get RJs, and like everyone else uses as an excuse, "once the cat is out of the bag, we needed to do it as well to stay competitive." Eagle by the way has had the last RJ delivery, how many more does COEX have?

Lastly, why don't you take a look at the ratio of RJs to Mainline at Eagle and American, vs CAL and COEX, we have substantially less.

AA

P.S. I thought the COEX and CAL pilots back in the mid 90s were in the same union "IACP", so who actually let it happen over their?

 

[arthompson]

Ok I've avoided this but I have to respond. IACP represented all of the the CO/COEX pilots and they were all essentially on one seniority list (at least thats how I understood it when I worked at COEX).

StarChecker- While I agree with your statement regarding people outside CHQ let me say this. The most **Vocal** Critics on this board of PCL are CHQ employees. So this definatly works both ways.

Adam

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal,

It was ALPA who let the cat out of the bag, then IACP, lastly APA conceeded in the 97 contract. Eagle was one of the last airlines to get RJs, and like everyone else uses as an excuse, "once the cat is out of the bag, we needed to do it as well to stay competitive."

CAL's contract was signed June 25, 1998. When was AA's signed? 1997, no? And CAL's contract signed in 1998 was the one that authorized unlimited 50 seat jets under the CAL code. Are you sure your order is correct? I seem to remember "Scope" buttons borne by AA pilots.

My only point with my statement was that blame cannot be cast in any one direction (ALPA)...but at all of the mainline unions, which in the late 90's extended to APA and IACP.

Eagle by the way has had the last RJ delivery, how many more does COEX have?

About 14 out of 274 total.

Lastly, why don't you take a look at the ratio of RJs to Mainline at Eagle and American, vs CAL and COEX, we have substantially less.

On a ratio basis, yes you have less...but that doesnt remove the fact that Eagle operates 295 aircraft, of which all but 61 are jets. This doesn't count Tran States or CHQ's aircraft operating as Connection. This is moot however...as I just wanted to spread blame around to everyone - not just "ALPA."

P.S. I thought the COEX and CAL pilots back in the mid 90s were in the same union "IACP", so who actually let it happen over their?

We were...but CAL had many more reps than Express. Now we are still in the same union, just a different MEC. Notice I said "IACP" and not "CAL" though.

I still don't know what your point is...mainline pilot groups as a whole did not fall on their sword over the RJ issue. The one who did the best in the scope arena ended up doing the worst financially (USAIR).

-Neal

 

[Dangerkitty]

CAL's contract was signed June 25, 1998. When was AA's signed? 1997, no? And CAL's contract signed in 1998 was the one that authorized unlimited 50 seat jets under the CAL code. Are you sure your order is correct? I seem to remember "Scope" buttons borne by AA pilots.

The 1997 Contract signed by the APA gave RJ's to Eagle but the ratio was tied in with Mainline aircraft and growth. This ratio limited the amount of RJ's that AMR could and WANTED to give to Eagle prior to the 2003 Concessionary contract.

The 2003 Concessionary contract gave unlimited 50 seat and below RJ's to Eagle and anything above that to Mainline AA. The only exeption being that the 25 Orders and 25 Options of the CRJ-700 go to Eagle if the APA and AMR couldn't come up with a cost neutral way for Mainline to fly them. Well, as we all know an agreement couldn't be reached so Eagle still flies it. I doubt AMR will exercise their 25 options however.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

The 1997 Contract signed by the APA gave RJ's to Eagle but the ratio was tied in with Mainline aircraft and growth. This ratio limited the amount of RJ's that AMR could and WANTED to give to Eagle prior to the 2003 Concessionary contract.

The 2003 Concessionary contract gave unlimited 50 seat and below RJ's to Eagle and anything above that to Mainline AA. The only exeption being that the 25 Orders and 25 Options of the CRJ-700 go to Eagle if the APA and AMR couldn't come up with a cost neutral way for Mainline to fly them. Well, as we all know an agreement couldn't be reached so Eagle still flies it. I doubt AMR will exercise their 25 options however.

Right...but my point was that the mainline unions (all of them) should never have let ANY small jets go to their regional affiliates. Because as they say....once the toothpaste is out of the tube, it can't be put back in!

-Neal

 

[FreedomAList]

F8 AND JUMPSEAT WAR (a case study):

F8 starts flying.

Skywest pilots start denying (solidarity for Mesa pilots).

Mesa management FORBIDS (!!) ALL SKYWEST PILOTS FROM FLYING MESA, F8, OR AIR MIDWEST as jumpseaters.

Skywest relents and allows F8 jumpers again.

(took about 2 weeks total)


(that's how it really happened folks)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
THE JUMPSEAT IS A COMPANY ASSET, not a Captain's toy. But hey, knock yourself out and have a tin god complex if it makes ya feel better.

 

[Strikefinder]

Essentially what happened when Chitaco took the contract was they sold out all their future pilots (FOs) since everyone that voted for that thing knew they would be captains in short period of time with that kind of contract.

Let me say it, again:

The CHQ pilot group signed their contract for SCOPE. Growth has been a bi-product, and I'm grateful that it's given me the opportunity to upgrade. But I voted in favor of the agreement because the alternative was another Freedom, which meant lower payrates for us and you.

Does that mean that I'm satisfied with our current contract? Absolutely not. Does that mean that I'll give up anything in order to facilitate growth? Absolutely not.

Take, for instance, J4J. Our council, on their last posting on the CHQ message board, put out the terms the company had outlined for a J4J extension. They asked if we would be interested in even voting on those terms. Right now, there are 188 "no" answers. There are no "yes" answers right now.

Finally, I hope that mainline maintains the scope on the 190s. This isn't necessarily in my best interest, since I don't forsee myself staying in the airlines long term (I'd like a nice corporate job, personally). But I think the long term interests of the major airline pilots are best suited by keeping the aircraft at mainline. I can't think of anything that would be worth getting at mainline in exchange for that control.

 

[BenderGonzales]

"I'd like a nice corporate job, personally..."

Is Ted Turner your brother or do you have some other way to "jump the shark" and get over the airline pilot stigma? Seems most corporate flight departments want nothing to do with former airline types.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

"I'd like a nice corporate job, personally..."

Is Ted Turner your brother or do you have some other way to "jump the shark" and get over the airline pilot stigma? Seems most corporate flight departments want nothing to do with former airline types.

and a bah humbug to you too

Why so mean people...Not enough sex?

 

[J32driver]

"jump the shark"

...dumbest... phrase...EVAR!!!

 

[E170Guppykiller]

I agree!!

 

[relief tube]

quit stepping in the BS

While many of you may not like our E170/190 rates, the 170 is a cool jet to fly and I'm sure the 190 will be just as cool or cooler to fly. While I'd love to make more money, the fact is that I'm content for the time being with our current rates as it's the most money I've ever made in my entire life.

You guys are falling for the BS way too easily. He doesn't even work there. Do ya really think anyone in their right mind would say that proudly? Let's all start thinking here

 

[Strikefinder]

"I'd like a nice corporate job, personally..."

Is Ted Turner your brother or do you have some other way to "jump the shark" and get over the airline pilot stigma? Seems most corporate flight departments want nothing to do with former airline types.

If that's the case, I won't be going anywhere very quickly, I suppose!

As I've heard that to get hired at FedEx I need to know three people who've flown with me there and be introduced to a chief pilot, I don't see that as any less insurmountable than a vague "stigma" associated with airline pilot types. I might not get hired by a major airline or a corporate flight department. I know a lot more people in the corporate world than I know at the majors, though, and so of the two I think it's more unlikely that I'll find myself at United than ABC, Inc., no matter what I want out of my career.

Furthermore, I never said I had to be a pilot for a corporation to be happy.

If anybody is interested in why I'd consider leaving the wonderful airline business, it's stupid "wars" like this where two people from different companies are too infantile to say hello to each other in the terminal because "he's stealing my flying" or "they'll sell their mother for an EMB190". Waking up feeling angry and neurotic every day isn't my cup of tea, I guess.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

Yeah Strike but you have to say F them! As a mainline captain told me when I started out last year and I was asking for advice. Only person looking out for you is YOU. Seniority is everything.

Who gives a flying F what others think. Just be happy going to work and if that stops, time to move on