No more certificates for non citizens

[Wiggums]

I just heard this morning from the FDSO that starting immediately non US citizens will not be able to receive any pilot certificates. Anyone here any details about this or know what is going on?

 

[frenchy]

I think they will receive certificates only if they enter the country legaly, and would have a "not authorized for work in the US" on it
until they show proof of legal residence.

 

[Dep676]

Why should a non-citizen get a certificate anyway? Let them become a citizen first then we will see about giving them one.

 

[Dan CFI/CFII]

Because I can get a JAA liscense if I'd like...

It can't be a one way street bro.

Of course, it makes sense that they'd have to enter the country legally, and it would probably make sense to require some sort of a background check...

Dan

 

[sparticusflt]

You may be able to get a JAA or CAA certs. However, getting a job in Europe is near to impossible for American Pilots. Its not a 2 way situation by any means.

 

[Dieterly]

But in Asia it's very easy for a American to get a job, so what are you saying?

 

[Austpilot]

Thats interesting Dieterley, hope you havent misconstrued anything I said, but yes it would be easier for an American to get a job in Asia than in Europe, especially if you have "heavy" time, as this is the area where the expansion will be in the next five years or so.

 

[Britpilot]

You may be able to get a JAA or CAA certs. However, getting a job in Europe is near to impossible for American Pilots. Its not a 2 way situation by any means.

Getting a job in Europe is tough for a European pilot as well. Very limited vacancies and not much hiring with pilots keeping whatever flying job they have. It is not possible to work as a pilot here in the USA unless you have either a "green card" or are a citizen.

 

[chawbein]

We don't want them dern ferners here noways!!

Seriously though, they should learn to fly in their own countries.

 

[desert pilot]

Quite good news for 31,000 non citizens serving in USA military,and airport security should be clean by now...

 

[chawbein]

OK, really seriously, if you have a green card, cool, get some. Otherwise, too bad so sad.

 

[Wiggums]

What about europeans that want to do some flight training over here since it is so expensive in their home countries? Should we just turn their money away? I think there are quite a few flight schools and instructors in Florida that depend on foriegn money.

You can convert from JAA-FAA pretty easily. The conversion from FAA-JAA isn't so bad anymore either with the recent rule changes. The main problem is getting authurization to work. It's difficult for someone on either side of the Atlantic to get a work permit for the otherside, especially after 9/11.

 

[sparticusflt]

Granted in pre 9/11 it was near to impossible to GET work in Europe. I hope to all my South American friends you didn't take offense to this. It is easy for Americans to head south so this is only really directed towards Europe and Asia. Personally I don't really care about the whole foreign pilot issue. I don't care if i can get a job in Europe or Asia. What I do care about is that it is far easier for a foreign pilot to come to the USA and get a job then it is for an American to go out. Make it equal then its not a problem. A green card doesn't make you a citizen either, and it is nice to have all the benifits without any of the headaches, such as taxes.

Ask me my opinion about foreign pilots working in the states and American pilots on the streets unemployeed.

 

[willbav8r]

Good topic here.

I was born in England.

I have a Green Card.

I live and work in the USA. Have done for many years.

So I should be fine to get my CFI etc right? But, what if I didn't have the right to live here, and was merely getting flight time and licenses?

The argument now becomes: could I be a dodgy terrorist?? Of course, that is how the bas@#$%s got away with it, and has to be considered as a future threat.

However, flight schools in this country derive a great deal of their business from overseas "students".

I'm all for checking an individual before letting them loose to do anything, anywhere, near my friends and family: but why not go after the obvious suspects?

I almost hate myself for typing this, but there has to be less risk of Paddy O' Riley from Dublin than A. Mohammed from Baghdad??

Not wanting to get off topic, but with FBO's already hurting, and the likelihood of a fuel increase, insurance costs rising, etc etc - this type of blanket security can do an awful lot of harm?

Not trying to make a statement, just my 0.02 into the ring.

 

[Flywrite]

[ Make it equal then its not a problem. A green card doesn't make you a citizen either, and it is nice to have all the benifits without any of the headaches, such as taxes.



If you are under the impression that Green Card holders in the US dont pay taxes, you are very mistaken. We pay the exact same taxes as everyone else. On top of that we are required to register with selective service, just like citizens.

I came to this country from England when I was 10 years old because my father's employer couldnt find a comparable engineer in the US. I didn't just get here hoping to take an american pilot's job.
I worked my a$$ off pumping gas and washing planes to pay for my ratings, than paid my dues like everyone else. There are people walking around alive and well today because I did my job well on those few occasions when it hit the fan, and I'm getting a little tired of the xenophobic BS flowing these days about how I shouldnt be allowed to work here as a pilot.
It's called a free market. I am legally allowed to live here for as long as I want, I pay taxes to support the nation's aviation infrastructure, and when I turned 18 I signed up to be drafted to fight for this country, so you will have to fogive me for thinking that I have earned the right to make a living as a pilot here.
I hate to tell you, but curling up into a ball and excluding everyone who is not a US citizen is not the answer to the world's problems.

Flame away

 

[Wiggums]

Granted in pre 9/11 it was near to impossible to GET work in Europe. I hope to all my South American friends you didn't take offense to this. It is easy for Americans to head south so this is only really directed towards Europe and Asia. Personally I don't really care about the whole foreign pilot issue. I don't care if i can get a job in Europe or Asia. What I do care about is that it is far easier for a foreign pilot to come to the USA and get a job then it is for an American to go out. Make it equal then its not a problem.

I would say that it is about equal. It's pretty much impossible for someone from Europe to get a green card, and similarly it's very difficult for an American to get a work permit for the EU.

A green card doesn't make you a citizen either, and it is nice to have all the benifits without any of the headaches, such as taxes.

Not true, it's the other way round. Green card holders have all of the drawbacks of being American such as selective service and taxes, but cannot do anything about it because they cannot vote. I believe "No taxation without representation" was invented here.

 

[sparticusflt]

Alright I was mistaken about the green card and the tax issue. However, are you going to say that it is just as easy for an American to get his CAA ratings then apply to British Airways, then a British pilot to come do his FAA ratings and apply to United? No I still don't think so. I'm not about the closing of the doors to foreign nationals. And to the one who came here when he was 10, I would wadger that you are probably an American citizen now. It is not equal and it has never been equal. This was my point. Most of the Eurpean pilot buddies would agree to that. As far as Mohammad from Bagdad, well thats another point all together. Not every middle eastener is a terrorist.

And something tells me that they are not going to deny foreigners the right to come to flight school.

 

[sparticusflt]

What about europeans that want to do some flight training over here since it is so expensive in their home countries? Should we just turn their money away? I think there are quite a few flight schools and instructors in Florida that depend on foriegn money.


If your looking for sympathy for a poor old flight instructor, talk to your non flying friends. Many of us paid our dues doing what you do, and servived just like you will. There are plenty of students out there. And the government isn't going to shut off the foreign students from flight school. If they did that then they would have to deny them from all of the universities.

 

[bobbysamd]

Foreign flight training revenue

It would be a big mistake to deny "ferners" access to U.S. sources of flight training, provided they are screened thoroughly by Homeland Security.

Foreign flight students are a major source of revenue to U.S. flight schools, especially in Florida. That revenue turns over several times, in the form of salaries paid to school employees (in other words, jobs are created for low-time CFIs needing hours!!), sales of fuel, property taxes, etc. Not to mention the students' out-of-pocket expenses, such as food, rent, services, cars they purchase and the fuel for their cars. This is all fresh money coming in from abroad and not recycled, domestically-earned revenue. Many of these schools would go out of business but for foreign pilot training.

I don't know how many foreign-born pilots are hired into jobs for which Americans are also competing. I know that some Florida-school-trained foreign pilots get CFI jobs here after they graduate. Based on my experience and encounters with foreign students at FSI, I think most of them go home after they earn their ratings.

Once again, Homeland Security must screen diligently for undesirables and keep them out of our country. Nothing the matter with "desirables" giving their business to American flight schools.

 

[Flywrite]

I've been here since I was 10, thats over 22 years now and I'm still a UK citizen. I could have become a US citizen years ago, but I like being British. Not that I dont love the good old USA, but I'm sure you would feel the same way if the tables were turned.

I will concede that it is easier to get into the aviation business here, much easier. I would never have been able to afford to learn to fly on my own if I had stayed in England, and I dont have the vision for the Betty Windsor Flying Club.

I understand it is easier to convert an FAA license to JAA these days...still harder than the opposite though.

I guess the fact is that America has always been the land of opportunity, and there is no point being bitter because it still is. How many US citizens on this board would be here if your ancestors had been told they couldnt come to the USA?

 

[Hovernut]

Quote from FAA

Here's what us local Aviation Safety Counselors got from the Orlando FSDO today:

> Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 9:28 AM
> Subject: Re: URGENT ACTION
>
> NOTICE TO ALL FLIGHT STANDARDS DIVISION MANAGERS
>
>
> In an effort to enhance aviation safety, the FAA must temporarily
> suspend, effective immediately, the issuance of private pilot
> certificates issued on the basis of a foreign pilot license under 14
Code
> of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) section 61.75.
>
> Therefore, division managers are requested to immediately notify the
> managers of their Flight Standards District Offices (FSDO) and
advise
> them they must temporarily cease issuing 14 CFR section 61.75 pilot
> certificates. In addition, the guidance contained in FAA Order
8700.1,
> General Aviation Operations Inspector?s Handbook, chapter 29, is
> currently under revision. AFS-760 and AFS-800 are in the process of
> drafting a Notice to reflect a new process for issuing private pilot
> certificates under section 61.75. The Notice will supersede chapter
29
> of FAA Order 8700.1, and will contain detailed guidance to the FSDO
work
> force on the new process to use when issuing 14 CFR section 61.75
private
> pilot certificates.
>
>
> ***************************************
> John M. Wensel
> Manager, Certification Branch
> AFS-840
> ***************************************


As I see it, this keeps someone from coming over here and converting a license they already posess from another (ICAO?) country. The ole' quick-n-dirty gimme a license so I can rent a C-172 light bomber routine! People in-country legally and with verifiable backgrounds are still free to enjoy some of the best and cheapest flight trianing in the world.

 

[Homer J simpson]

Hello,

I am a european citizen, but, married for a long time to an american girl.
I did my flight training in de states, and worked my first commercial hours in de US.
I tried to get to a better job in de usa, but never had an interview
No problem, We went back to europe got the local license, and a job straight away.
To my surprise half of the pilots a flew with were americans, flying in europe and no citizenship. and no problems with the license conversion for them
After 3 years I left to go fly in Asia, where I am today, and there are also americans flying around in this airline. but we are al in the same boat as expats. and had to do the
same conversions they from FAA, me from JAA
after working on 3 continents, and with multiple nationalities it does not matter to me anymore, I am a foreigner working for a
asian airline. And the people here accept me as one of them,

But,
I can understand peoples feelings, foreigners taking their jobs, and futures.

from my own experience.
it is harder to get a job in the states, as a "foreigner', then for an american to get a job outside the states.
the pilots working outsice the states usually have a lot af time and experience so the get the jobs.

ps, pls, if you like to complain about my spelling feel free, I am used to it!!!!!!!!!!!!

H

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm......................pizzzzzzzzzaaa

 

[cmrflyer]

I hope some of the idiots who say get rid of all foreign pilots in the US watch CNN every now and then. I'm a UK citizen (that means Great Britain, for those of you who are clueless), I have lived in the states for 13 years, payed all my taxes, signed up for your draft etc,etc. If you do watch CNN you see Royal Marines, The Royal Navy and the RAF have all been involved in Afganistan, infact the first troops on the ground after 911 were Special Air Service (SAS, British troops), during the shoot out at that prison outside Kabul, it was a British SBS officer who was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honour, for saving CIA operatives lives. I wonder if you relize that on 911 no attacks took place on Britain, yet we are there fighting beside you. Have some respect for the dirty forgeiners,(that you want denied the right to move here and live here),that lay their lives down for your country, and try gorwning up.
(PS. the largest population of US citizens living outside of the US are in Great Britain, over one million of you, it would be a shame to have to kick them out (that is one in ever 55 people in the UK are American))

 

[Northpilot]

Just heard that all FAA foreign based licences are void now. I am talking of people who have a private pilots licence based off another counties.

To obtain a FAA private pilots licence you will have to do the written, flight test and meet all the standards. It doesn't matter as far as I know if you are a ATP from another country you still have to do the written, flight test and meet the requirments.

I was talking to a person who is two flight's away from getting his commerical pilots licence. He now has to do his private pilots written, flight test and then he can do his commercial ride. He is one of the foreign people that came over here to do his flying as his country is too expense to do training.

One thing is that many people got their FAA licences not to work in the US but it was a requiement for working in other countries. As for the notion that these pilots are taking away jobs away from us, it is not correct. To work in the US you have to be an citizen by birth or parents or have a green card. If you don't have these you won't even get an interview.

 

[Britpilot]

I hope some of the idiots who say get rid of all foreign pilots in the US watch CNN every now and then. I'm a UK citizen (that means Great Britain, for those of you who are clueless), I have lived in the states for 13 years, payed all my taxes, signed up for your draft etc,etc. If you do watch CNN you see Royal Marines, The Royal Navy and the RAF have all been involved in Afganistan, infact the first troops on the ground after 911 were Special Air Service (SAS, British troops), during the shoot out at that prison outside Kabul, it was a British SBS officer who was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honour, for saving CIA operatives lives. I wonder if you relize that on 911 no attacks took place on Britain, yet we are there fighting beside you. Have some respect for the dirty forgeiners,(that you want denied the right to move here and live here),that lay their lives down for your country, and try gorwning up.
(PS. the largest population of US citizens living outside of the US are in Great Britain, over one million of you, it would be a shame to have to kick them out (that is one in ever 55 people in the UK are American))

And not forgetting the US owned companies that reside in the UK, the military bases that are there. It's a two way street that benefits both sides.