No More ATA At Capital

[Tristar]

Well . . . that's certainly the most interesting version I've ever heard of the whole deal. Unfortunately aside from a few of the names being correct, there is nothing even close to right in that narrative.

When ATA emerged from the first bankruptcy with DIP financing from Matlin Patterson, they created holding company, ATAH, to "own" the airline. ATAH was really nothing more than a shell company, it's only asset was ATA, and in every sense except on paper was ATA.

Later ATAH purchased World Air Holdings (which owned WOA and NAA), then changed its name from ATAH to GAL to "better reflect it's mission.

The top executives from ATA/ATAH (Karnik & Co.) then moved the headquarters of GAL from IND to ATL, and ultimately shut down ATA.

There is no doubt ATA was loosing money on sched service. There were many reasons behind this, including surrendering many of our best markets to WN when John Dennison was running the show (can you say collusion boys and girls? I'll never be able to prove it, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck). Then add to this the complete mismanagement of our widebody program (park L-1011's we knew, get older DC-10's we didn't; get rid of most of our good in house mechanics, replace them with contract mx, ect) and ATA was backed into a corner. The final straw was when FedEx cancelled the contract due to poor performance (see above). Also, Southwest talked and talked about expanding the codeshare, but it never seemed to materialize.

Between all of this, MP finally had had enough. The story is they were initially going to shut down all of GAL, but it was pointed out that NAA and WOA were making money, so ATA got the axe. The problem with it all is it never should have happened. The employees reached out to MP on more than one occasion begging to have the idiots running the show replaced with real leadership. Our efforts were ignored, and so the employees of ATA paid the price for MP's ignorance and indifference to the very real problems that were bringing down the company. Oh, they did can Subodh - so we've got that going for us . . .

Fortunately for WOA and NAA, they seem to have competent management and a viable business model, so hopefully they will fare bette than ATA did.

 

[redneck jihad]

I think the service monkey was kidding, just like halintexas.

 

[Tristar]

Oops. Well, I feel like an a$$. Fortunately, I'm used to it (I'm married). I have heard some rather creative versions though, so it _seemed_ believable. Nevermind . . .

 

[servicemonkey]

I think the service monkey was kidding, just like halintexas.

Indeed-forgot the smiley face.

 

[Golden Falcon]

What seniority could there possibly be??? Thought that would have evaporated when ATA closed the doors...

 

[mu2]

What happend to G Moss?

 

[727Niteflyer]

I dont think they were real happy with him. Pretty hard to explain without getting into specifics, but he was let go shortly after the 75 came online.

 

[alpine1989]

I see that EW was named "High Flyer" of the month at Cappy. Good for him. He's a good guy.

Have you guys that were complaining gotten over yourselves?

 

[dutch747]

Later ATAH purchased World Air Holdings (which owned WOA and NAA), then changed its name from ATAH to GAL to "better reflect it's mission.

Tristar, good post with lots of good info, but you are wrong in saying ATA Holdings bought WOA/NAA, it was Matlin P. who bought WOA/NAA, then formed GAL which under GAL was ATA, WOA, NAA. If what you said was true your scope would have gone much further in the courts than it did. Sorry for the thread hijack.

 

[Tristar]

Well, MP already owned ATAH, the purchase occurred, then then name changed to GAL according to the documents I read. I'm not sure how much beyond that is semantics, but it's all sort of irrelevant at this point.

There is a ton of info on the whole SCOPE debacle, some of which I'm privy too and some not - there was more to that than just the order of the transaction, who bought what, ect; but it's all moot point now anyhow.

 

[ultrarunner]

By all accounts, EW stood up and did the right thing. I believe it is appropriate at this point for Pissedoff to send his wife and daughter over to EW's place to "apologize" ;-)

 

[alpine1989]

It doesn't really matter who bought who (GAL/WOA/ATA). Somedude Karnick screwed ATA up when he attempted to muscle FedEx. He didn't understand the DOD business and the relationship ATA had with FedEx. Don't even get me going on that other arse clown Elmer Fudd...

 

[CaptSeth]

Tristar, good post with lots of good info, but you are wrong in saying ATA Holdings bought WOA/NAA, it was Matlin P. who bought WOA/NAA, then formed GAL which under GAL was ATA, WOA, NAA. If what you said was true your scope would have gone much further in the courts than it did. Sorry for the thread hijack.

New ATA Holdings, with financing arranged by Matlin Patterson and JP Morgan Chase, purchased World Holdings and changed the name of ATA Holdings to Global Aero Logistics. That is a fact, it is irrefutable, and if you like I'll provide the documentation if it really matters to you. What's your beef? Guilty conscience?

We had 3 valid scope grievances in progress at the time of the shutdown. ALPA National and their worthless attorneys decided to pursuade our nit-wit custodian to fold the cards in return for a few pennies on the dollar (which we still haven't gotten). Probably because they knew there would be no dues money forthcoming. What they didn't think about is the fact that abandoning these grievances just accelerates the profession's pathetic slide into oblivion that Cohen, Weiss and Simon and the limp-wristed, idiotic ALPA "leadership" are responsible for.

 

[bukakke]

Hey CaptSeth, was John G and "Fat-Back" G. running the show at ATA when you were there?

 

[Bellerophon]

[quote=CaptSeth;1771424]New ATA Holdings, with financing arranged by Matlin Patterson and JP Morgan Chase, purchased World Holdings and changed the name of ATA Holdings to Global Aero Logistics. That is a fact, it is irrefutable, and if you like I'll provide the documentation if it really matters to you. What's your beef? Guilty conscience?



Therefore, entitled to bid for positions on the B747, MD11, DC10, B767 and B757 in seniority order at any Global Air Logistics carrier.

 

[Tristar]

Thanks Bellerophon [sarcasm]. This has been debated previously. What is your purpose here? Stirring up animosity? The ATA guys were completely screwed in the whole transaction. The fault of WOA or NAA pilots? No - you and I have already covered this.

Congratulations - you did well (thus far) in the airline lottery. There is no point in rubbing salt in the wounds of others. So some of them grumble and feel disenfranchised - they were. The only thing you are going to accomplish is to create dissension. As I said before - there are many TZ pilots who want nothing to do with another GAL carrier - and there are a number to want a job and would be thankful to be at WOA or NAA.

Have you flown with any of the TZ pilots there? Do you have a problem with any of them? So some of the guys grumble on here - I think they are entitled to it. It's no skin off of your back, so suck it up, be a man, and shut up. As Capt. Seth said - ALPA sold the TZ pilots down the river and it's a dead issue anyhow.

 

[Bellerophon]

Hey Capt Seth started it.

Now with what you said:

ALPA sold the TZ pilots down the river and it's a dead issue anyhow.

With the shutdown of the ATA business, what do you think ALPA should have done?

 

[waka]

[quote=CaptSeth;1771424]New ATA Holdings, with financing arranged by Matlin Patterson and JP Morgan Chase, purchased World Holdings and changed the name of ATA Holdings to Global Aero Logistics. That is a fact, it is irrefutable, and if you like I'll provide the documentation if it really matters to you. What's your beef? Guilty conscience?



Therefore, entitled to bid for positions on the B747, MD11, DC10, B767 and B757 in seniority order at any Global Air Logistics carrier.

That's a big leap in your "therefore" reasoning. Utter BS. Nobody has any entitlements here.

 

[waka]

New ATA Holdings, with financing arranged by Matlin Patterson and JP Morgan Chase, purchased World Holdings and changed the name of ATA Holdings to Global Aero Logistics. That is a fact, it is irrefutable, and if you like I'll provide the documentation if it really matters to you. What's your beef? Guilty conscience?

Key words; Holding companies and MP called the shots. There is no guilt with the WOA or NAA pilots, nor should there be. What's your beef? Chip on shoulder? Sorry about ATA's demise but, name change or not, your management would have crashed ATA anyway. WOA/NAA had nothing to do with it.

 

[Tristar]

Do you really want to go there?

Before we do, let's play the assumption game - let's assume:

Capt. Seth is exactly correct, and ATAH did buy WAH? What if technically WAH was the acquired company, and subject to ATA's scope effective the day of the purchase? Would you be willing to honor and accept that? We're not talking about after the shutdown, but again effective immediately on the day the transaction took place.

I'm not saying that's what happened, but before we waste a lot of time with he said/she said, you need to lay on the table whether you are playing honest cards or not. Address these issues without changing the subject or resorting to rhetoric.

I'm more than willing to accept the what if's should all of the above be false - what is your position should it be true? All I ask for is an intellectually honest debate (a rarity in forums such as this).

WAKA - You are dead on. I see this whole thing as pointless at this juncture, but Bello seems to have issues.

 

[dutch747]

New ATA Holdings, with financing arranged by Matlin Patterson and JP Morgan Chase, purchased World Holdings and changed the name of ATA Holdings to Global Aero Logistics. That is a fact, it is irrefutable, and if you like I'll provide the documentation if it really matters to you. What's your beef? Guilty conscience?

I have no beef. Well, except for the beef I ate for dinner last night. Guilty conscience...no, but I am bitter about ATA ever going out of business. I wish ATA was still alive and well. Nobody in the pilots ranks has benefited from ATA's demise. You say you have proof then plz provide.

We had 3 valid scope grievances in progress at the time of the shutdown. ALPA National and their worthless attorneys decided to pursuade our nit-wit custodian to fold the cards in return for a few pennies on the dollar (which we still haven't gotten). Probably because they knew there would be no dues money forthcoming. What they didn't think about is the fact that abandoning these grievances just accelerates the profession's pathetic slide into oblivion that Cohen, Weiss and Simon and the limp-wristed, idiotic ALPA "leadership" are responsible for.

I'll bet your right here to a certain degree, but maybe the scope language in your contract just wasn't strong enough. Having said that, has anyone ever seen scope language that has held up in courts? Similar circumstance? I haven't.

 

[dutch747]

Have you flown with any of the TZ pilots there? Do you have a problem with any of them? So some of the guys grumble on here - I think they are entitled to it. It's no skin off of your back, so suck it up, be a man, and shut up. As Capt. Seth said - ALPA sold the TZ pilots down the river and it's a dead issue anyhow.

I have flown with Ron T, Brian M and that polish FE Yan...(guy is a riot!) - all great fun and accomplished aviators. All have made a positive contribution to WOA.

 

[Bellerophon]

OK,

Lets say ALPA won all three grievences in the June 08 hearing or shortly thereafter. What would you expect ALPA to do? 500 ATA pilots are grounded at GAL leaving 350 World crews and 200 NAA crews still conducting the business they had prior to the GAL purchase.

 

[Tristar]

I don't know. If you were on the ATA side of the fence, what would YOU have ALPA do given the SCOPE language of ATA's & Worlds contracts (I don't know anything of NAA's)?

 

[CaptSeth]

If you were involved in the union relationship between the three carriers, you would know full well that OUR intentions were to build an alliance to protect EVERYONE's jobs and workrules. Not to put people out of their seats. At all.And yes, I am bitter that I lost 14 years of seniority and a great career, but it wasn't the pilots at NAA or World's fault. Of course, the EXCO's were notably silent regarding our plight after the shutdown, but that's life. I've moved on. I'll post the relevant press releases when I get to a computer (I'm on my Treo) if you're that interested in the facts. But it is over now, dead issue.There are other clouds on the horizon.

 

[Bellerophon]

If you were involved in the union relationship between the three carriers, you would know full well that OUR intentions were to build an alliance to protect EVERYONE's jobs and workrules. Not to put people out of their seats. At all.And yes, I am bitter that I lost 14 years of seniority and a great career, but it wasn't the pilots at NAA or World's fault. Of course, the EXCO's were notably silent regarding our plight after the shutdown, but that's life. I've moved on. I'll post the relevant press releases when I get to a computer (I'm on my Treo) if you're that interested in the facts. But it is over now, dead issue.There are other clouds on the horizon.

If your first post had this tone I would not have been offended. WOA and NAA pilots have nothing on their conscience concerning the actions we took after MP shut ATA down. If a post has that kind of tone don't be surprised if WOA/NAA crews react.

The former ATA crewmembers I have met at WOA have in now way shown any bitterness towards WOA crews.

 

[Tristar]

Group Hug!

 

[pilotgolfer]

Sorry for the mis-quote about the "dogs"and hunting.. and sorry about the P.F. reference.. its been a while since I was there as you might be able to tell.. basically I was commenting on the management style there, as I do know that many of those people have been there for a long time.. and they still share the same attitudes towards employees...

Does anyone know if a former ATA Sr. capt ( W. H.) was hired there? don't even know if he applied.. but he lives close by to Cappy.. just wondering..

Are you talking about "Rambo"?