No More ATA At Capital

[pissedoff]

Hello fellow ATA pilots,

Capital Cargo has hired a former check airman of ours as chief pilot there. They were giving us preferential hiring until one of our fellow ATA pilots cut their own deal. This guy (whom I never would have figured to do this) went from the lowest Captain on the seniority list, to a check airman on the 757. The whole pilot group is really pissed off at Ed but he doesn't care. He bypassed about 30 other guys and cut his own deal to do this. This is not rumor; this is fact, we no longer have preferential hiring there. I just wanted to let you guys know, this guy could be called a scab, or what ever you want, but he just screwed a lot of us who will not stoop that low and slammed one more door in a bad business anyway. Just wanted to say thanks E.W. we all owe you one, you know better than this. If any of you know this man please give him a call and explain what he has done to the rest of the ATA brethren.

 

[pissedoff]

Because their pilot group was pushing management for preferential hiring for us, and after the pilot group saw what this guy did they said forget it. This guy blew everything he ever knew about a union when he did this. When he was with ATA he would have raised holy he!! if someone did this to him, just like their guys are doing now. That's how he is screwing the rest of the guy's that are looking for a job in aviation somewhere.

 

[On Your Six]

Because their pilot group was pushing management for preferential hiring for us, and after the pilot group saw what this guy did they said forget it. This guy blew everything he ever knew about a union when he did this. When he was with ATA he would have raised holy he!! if someone did this to him, just like their guys are doing now. That's how he is screwing the rest of the guy's that are looking for a job in aviation somewhere.

Did you already get a job there or are you currently trying to get a job there?

 

[pissedoff]

I am looking for options/a job anywhere that will pay the bills, and all of us have to use any avenue we can to get a job. This is just a crappy move from a guy that knows better. Maybe the scab word was a little strong since their not on strike but what do you call it when a guy cuts his own deal and goes out of seniority to do it? We should be helping each other not alienating our pilot group. Just my opinion...I'm pissedoff

 

[HalinTexas]

I wasn't aware that checkairman were picked out of seniority.

They weren't at ATA.

A checkairman position is largely political. So's fleet manager.

Was there anyone else as or more qualified?

 

[lookin4better]

How is Capital doing flying 727s in this fuel environment?

Do they have PFEs? Or would a new hire go to FO on the 72?

Thanks

 

[pissedoff]

I don't know about qualifications of other guys since I don't work there, but I hear there are a lot of really ticked off pilots. I would have to assume that there were people Senior to him ready to go since he recently went to work there. I get my info second hand but the reality of this is, the pilot group is pissed at him, so he did something wrong and it doesn't help the rest of us, and everybody needs some help in this day and age.....you know what I mean. Maybe we did it wrong at ATA and should have let management just pick who they wanted. Somehow I doubt it though and this stinks in my opinion.

 

[HalinTexas]

[Maybe we did it wrong at ATA and should have let management just pick who they wanted. /QUOTE]

That's pretty much what they did. Are you suggesting that ES is NOT qualified? Is he LESS qualified than someone else?

You've made a lot of accusations based on assumptions and second-hand knowledge.

It's political. Always has been. Definitely so at ATA and at TSA (my two experiences). Why are you making a fuss now? I don't know EW, but its possible he could be very good at what he does, and just what the pilots could use.

 

[HalinTexas]

PissedOff,

I find it interesting that you're posting this anonymously. Everyone at ATA knows who I am. I've also found out that EW did not get hired as CP, it is Joe B. and another is under consideration for LCP Bill M. on the B757's. So, why aren't busting these guys b@lls? If you're X-ATA you probably know them, too.

 

[pissedoff]

How can you be pissed off at a chief pilot who applied for a job and got it? You can be pissed off at a guy who was the lowest Captain on the 727 seniority list and went straight into the check airman position on the 757. He bypassed all those guys that were Senior to him...thats why I'm pissed. I also have no clue nor care who you are. If you think this is the correct thing what this guy did then your warped. The line check airman is whose balls I'm busting not the chief pilots. After getting off the telephone with some friends there here is the scoop. He cut his own deal..straight and simple and that is wrong and there will be some of our pilots that will pay for it.

 

[nitefr8dog]

How can you be pissed off at a chief pilot who applied for a job and got it? You can be pissed off at a guy who was the lowest Captain on the 727 seniority list and went straight into the check airman position on the 757. He bypassed all those guys that were Senior to him...thats why I'm pissed. I also have no clue nor care who you are. If you think this is the correct thing what this guy did then your warped. The line check airman is whose balls I'm busting not the chief pilots. After getting off the telephone with some friends there here is the scoop. He cut his own deal..straight and simple and that is wrong and there will be some of our pilots that will pay for it.

Position on the seniority list has nothing to due with check airman position at ABX or most airlines for that matter. I t usually boils down to whoever applies for it, is willing to jump throuh the hoops (their a$$) and get jerked around. I have been a checkairman at 2 carriers and it was not for the money. I enjoy instructing. But you eat alot of crummy schedulings when you could just be flying the line you bid. I allways figured I was helpig the cause.

 

[CaptSeth]

It seems that Cappy needed pilots with extensive experience on the B757 in order to ramp up their operation, and management chose someone that fit that description. The FAA may even have mandated it. Check airman, in the best situations, are picked based on experience and skill, not on seniority necessarily.

At ATA, seniority was a minor factor in choosing a check airman. The means of chosing one was always a subject for debate, but my personal experience is that the check airman corps at ATA was outstanding on that fleet.

I don't see the problem here. Also, preferential hiring is usually a decision that management makes.

 

[Usedtobe]

Information

While I find this not funny at all, let me help you with some information from someone who "is here". It is my understanding that this is a temporary postion for this EW that you are speaking of to help them complete some training on the 757 as another contract check airman quite to take another job. Yes I am sure that he did "cut his own deal", but it is sort of like the prostitute--"someone had to ask". do not misunderstand this as defending this guy cause I aint. I personally think his attitude stinks in that he has acted like all here are beneath him. As for other ATA Pilots, I dont believe anyone in this group would hold that against any other person looking for a job. We just want qalified, good crewmembers, thats all.
I have not known them to "black ball" any group since i have been here and that has years.

 

[727flier]

“Usedtobe” great post and I could not agree more with you as for as past hiring, although, I fear it will not be that way in the future. Some of my best friends in the world flew for ATA and in the military/same squadron we have tilted amany a beer. I am more intricately involved in this program and this post than I care to be at this time, but facts are facts. This guy may have been given a choice or worked his own deal whatever, he took it. Bottom line is “ in my opinion, and not only mine but the 70 other people or so he went above ” HE CHOSE WRONG”. Since we are airing our laundry in public, here is a quote from the LOA that the company is not honoring….

Check Airmen

a. Check airmen for the B757 shall be selected by the Company from among crewmembers who are awarded and qualify for positions on such equipment, provided there are crewmembers who are acceptable to the Company and the FAA and are willing to serve in that capacity.

b. If the Company has selected a person other than a crewmember holding a B757 position as check airman on such equipment after application of paragraph A.8.a, that person’s B757 revenue flying will be limited to flying for personal proficiency and check airman-related


This, in my opinion means, he can not fly revenue service. If he does check airman duties and nothing else he is fine as far as I can see. Are they going to hold his Captain seat and not upgrade our F/O’s….YES. From what I hear there was several other company check airmen that wanted that job. They were senior to him and didn’t get the job. What would you have done as a check airman on the 727 if they got a 747? Would you have expected to have it over someone senior? Remember this is my opinion only, but, we live and die by our seniority in this business, and you have been doing this longer than I have. I do not know the answer but there has to be a better solution. I will give the floor to my elders and look for a better answer.

Respectfully

 

[Usedtobe]

727Flier...I appreciate your position and after doing some research(should have done more to begin with) I agree with you that this was handled wrong. I also agree that that individual could have handled this a lot better. I believe that a check airman no matter what equipment, must be a person that individuals can respect what they say and do not just because he/she is a check airman, but because they respect the check airman as a flier first, someone who has experience second and third who has been down the same road that most others are trying to travel. That being to be a good crewmember, both in and out of the airplane. Having said all that, I agree with you 100% that this never should have happened and what I had hoped to say in my last post was that this action should not be held against any other person or group, just because this individual came from that particular group. I also know a lot of people from ATA that are great crewmembers and I would fly with them anywhere, anytime. Finally, I agree that the First Officers here should never be passed over for upgrade. The only exception would be when the individual elects to not try for the upgrade.

The rest of you guys/gals out there from ATA keep sending your resumes.

 

[Usedtobe]

727flier--By the way, liked your quote at the bottom of your post. One that I have adopted over the years:

Every chance I get, I feel the need to grab the flag and charge up the hill, only to find myself running back down the hill with that flag shoved up my a$$. I have made that trip many times and I am at a loss for why.

 

[HalinTexas]

A question:

In reference to:

Check airmen for the B757 shall be selected by the Company from among crewmembers who are awarded and qualify for positions on such equipment, provided there are crewmembers who are acceptable to the Company and the FAA and are willing to serve in that capacity.

How many crewmembers at Capital are 1. "Awarded and qualified" on the B757, 2. Current on the B757, 3. are acceptable to the Co. and FAA?

If there are some (one) then you have a case. If not, then you don't need people that are "in-house" creating a program for you that have never flown the airplane. ATA did that both with the B757, although there were some that had flown it, but weren't interested, and the B737, where no one at ATA had flown the NG. The programs were messed up for quite a while until they worked out all the kinks.

Whoever is appointed to this position still won't get any super-seniority.

Good luck with the airplane, you'll love it! <done here>

 

[Tired in KTol]

727flier--By the way, liked your quote at the bottom of your post. One that I have adopted over the years:

Every chance I get, I feel the need to grab the flag and charge up the hill, only to find myself running back down the hill with that flag shoved up my a$$. I have made that trip many times and I am at a loss for why.

Forget the flag, next time use a belt fed weapon

 

[727Niteflyer]

ok heres the real deal.

Capital hired a contract guy with lots of 75 experience to get the program up and running. He got one of the other captains approved as a check airman and then he quit.

That left us with 1 check airman and a lot of people that needed to be trained. This is another setback in an already troubled program. Management screwed the certification up from the beginning and are despretly(sorry bout the spelling for you einsteins), trying to get the aircraft flying full time.

So the option was either hire another contractor or EW was current and qualified on the 75 and could be run through a short course. The FAA of course would approve him as checkairman because of his experience.

For another Capital guy to get into a checkairman position would take not only a long course but a lot more time in the aircraft on LOE. Getting a contractor would require a short course but they would have to do basic indoc and jump through all those hoops. EW was the quickest way.

When I spoke to EW last week he told me that he was told that this would only be temporary because they would have to put the position up for bid and properly fill it. This was only to get the aircraft flying.

So last night on the bus I asked our mec president about it. And he told me that things have changed.

It seems that management lied to EW telling him that the position and circumstances were worked out with the union. They werent. He didnt know. So as of yesterday he called or vp of ops and said if things were not worked out with the union he would not be coming to work on monday.

So Im sure things will be worked out. The union stance is its ok to put EW in the position as long as it is temperary and filled properly in the future.

The program has had some major setbacks and this is another.

Bottom line EW is a good guy, did the right thing just trusted a management that continuously lies to employees. JB is a good guy, the union will work with the company to resolve this, and nobody from ATA is being black listed.

I hope that we have more ATA people on our flight decks, seems like a great group of people.

 

[727Niteflyer]

Theyve burned alot of bridges with the FAA. Its not the model company with the FAA that it once was.

They have owned this 75 for over a year. Its still not up and running full speed yet. FAA is watching us like a hawk.

 

[dc8tom]

Not to be a wise ass but I have seen the same misquote in many replies of late. The correct idiom is I do not have a dog in this HUNT! I think you might have spent too much time watching ESPN during the VICK trial.Sorry but this irks me almost as much as captains saying my copilot or my F/O. wHAT egos.

 

[nitefr8dog]

I dont have any dog in this fight, but I can certainly attest to the way that management team operates.. from experience of my own...

They are capable of doing anything if its in their best interest and have a cozy relationship with the local ORL FSDO..

The Owner, P.F. is not one that like to go through much red tape.. and has the $$ Bling to make things happen in astonishing speed..

So now that they have a 75 on the property, I am sure they are going to do what it takes to get it in the air...

P.F. does not own it any more ATSG does.

 

[727Niteflyer]

only ata people are EW and JB is the new chief pilot

 

[MDWCrashPad]

Pissedoff's original post stated that because the new Chief Pilot chose a junior 727 captain, who by the way has lots of 757 and international experience, to help him get the 757 program up and running, that Capital would no longer give preference to ATA pilots. I don't see how he comes to that conclusion.

First of all, a check airman is a management position under the law, even if the union contract specifies otherwise, for other purposes. Second the union apparently had bargained for, and was able to come to agreement with the company on, some limitations on how a 757 check airman could be used in regular flying when his seniority does not allow him to hold a 757 captain bid. Third, I believe that Ed was one of the first guys hired there after ATA closed, so I doubt if there are 30 ATA guys ahead of him. Even if there are, they would have been hired within a few days of Ed and it is still the chief pilot's choice, not a seniority position.

If Pissedoff was an ATA pilot, I do not understand how he could not know Hal, JB, or BM. I guess it is possible if he was cloistered in the L1011 world. And if he was, is he equally "pissedoff" that Omni has been hiring our guys as captains right off the street?

If I were a pilot at Capital, I would feel very good that Joe has taken over the task of bringing on the 757s, that Ed is going to get the guys checked out on the line, and that Bill may be joining them in the effort. Ed brought me up to speed on the Budapest to Iraq/Kwait flying back in January.

When the DC-10s were brought on-line at ATA, it was done in an extremely incompetent manor and brought down the entire airline. I wish we had gone off property to get people who knew what they were doing. Maybe we would still be flying.

Good luck to all the Capital guys. I hope you end up with 100 of the B757s, its a great plane.

 

[CaptSeth]

When the DC-10s were brought on-line at ATA, it was done in an extremely incompetent manor and brought down the entire airline. I wish we had gone off property to get people who knew what they were doing. Maybe we would still be flying.

Sorry, I have to disagree. As you know, I am not an apologist for management. But as someone that went through the DC-10 program, I don't think it was completely incompetent. The books and procedures were quite good, the training was great, and the whole program was up and running six months from the date of inception, and only a few days late. The fact that the training schedule went haywire was due to M-P's withdrawal of support for our operation as soon as they closed the deal on World Holdings, upon which they also withdrew most of the maintenance support, staffing, as well as not painting the aircraft in our colors.

Our local managers were unable to plan because the "plan" was never divulged to them, and they were only aware of changes in aircraft acceptance and fleet size well after decisions were made. ATA was not permitted to succeed by a group of money grubbers on Madison Ave. - in fact, it was purposefully flown into the ground.

 

[MDWCrashPad]

I did not mean to say that the pilots in the DC-10 program were the ones who did not perform as they should have. I guess I should have been more clear and I am sure that CaptSeth is more knowledgable about the particulars in the DC10 program than I am.

My understanding is that the DC-10s were in horible shape when we received them; that there were wiring problems in some of the systems that caused huge delays at times. Basically, that we never should have accepted them as delivered. I have also heard that we did not have a proper maintenance program setup for the DC-10 and that we ended up ferrying planes across the country to get small things fixed.

Whatever the problems, whoever was responsible, we ended up in the penalty box after not meeting the required on-time requirements. That cost us millions in military flying.

I think it is a wise decision to bring in the people who know what needs to be done when bringing on new equipment. Get it done right.

 

[Colonel Savage]

My understanding is that the DC-10s were in horible shape when we received them; that there were wiring problems in some of the systems that caused huge delays at times. Basically, that we never should have accepted them as delivered...

Where did these airplanes come from? What airline?

 

[HalinTexas]

1970's vintage NWA. The newest was older than our oldest L1011.

They flew the hell out of them, and it showed.

We were supposed to get 7 to fly with 2 parts spares. But after the World bought ATA , and appointed former ATA executives to run the un-merged operations, 3 went to World.

 

[MD11Drvr]

1970's vintage NWA. The newest was older than our oldest L1011.

They flew the hell out of them, and it showed.

We were supposed to get 7 to fly with 2 parts spares. But after the World bought ATA , and appointed former ATA executives to run the un-merged operations, 3 went to World.

Hal,

Just to set the record straight I've never seen anyone say WOA bought ATA. By the same token ATA did not buy WOA. We had the misfortune of being bought by the same holding company. I do not feel WOA would have gotten any if the 10s had ATA been able to spool up thier program as scheduled. The reasons why vary greatly but in the end ATA could not get it together with the DC-10. The writing was on the wall for ATA well before the 10 and GAL and it would have taken more to save it than it had to offer. Not to say a valiant effort was'nt made by the employees but in the end none of us get to pick the management team we have to work for.

 

[servicemonkey]

But after the World bought ATA , and appointed former ATA executives to run the un-merged operations, 3 went to World.

Are you sure? I always heard that ATA bought World and North American through their wholly owned subsidiary "New ATA Holdings". Then when World and NAA found out that ATA wanted to really "bring them under their wing" they hired Global Aero Logistics to help with the transition, which pissed off FedEx, who in turn gave all of ATA's military flying to NWA, which was on the same team as ATA, and then with the loss of the AMC business, ATA could no longer prop up their scheduled service, which was bleeding $ like a stuck pig because for some reason scheduled service is harder to do than charter. But World and NA had done scheduled service before and really liked it but quit doing it for some reason and couldn't understand why ATA wouldn't listen to them and keep trying harder. Then, after GAL took over, and after many tee times and 19th hole cocktails, they instituted the “no reach around” method of management and
decided to make World pay $350 million dollars so they wouldn’t have to compete with ATA for their share of the “lucrative” AMC business.