No IFR allowed?

[Connectionpilot]

Hey guys, I'm at a part 141 school. Is IFR not allowed in the commercial rating at all these schools?

 

[cobraman]

WHo said it is not allowed? I am teaching ASEL (amongst other ratings) at DCA. You mind explaining how you expect to do commercial maneuvers that the FAA has specified in the ASEL PTS in the WEATHER? IFR is allowed, you can file IFR to get out, find some vfr, do your airwork and file IFR to get back in. I try my ass off to get my students as much IFR (even private) as possible. Some instructors are just too lazy to deal with it. If yours is like that, talk to him or her about filing to get your flights done. If they dont want to, then find your group leaders or managers, they'll fix it. You can always fly with me. I love actual!

 

[Connectionpilot]

I'm talking about like the xcountrys and stuff...like the solo long, and the night dual, etc...

 

[timeoff]

I'm talking about like the xcountrys and stuff...like the solo long, and the night dual, etc...

Break out your FARAIM. Those are required to be vfr.

 

[minitour]

With 141, you've gotta go with the syllabus. If they got the FAA to approve IFR flights for the long xc, then great...if the FAA approved "VFR only" for your solo xc's, then it's VFR only.

It's all about the syllabus and TCO's under 141.

FWIW, Under Part 61, you can do the long solo xc however you want, but the dual (day and night) have to be VFR still.

-mini

 

[siucavflight]

Break out your FARAIM. Those are required to be vfr.

I think that you need to break out the FARAIM, they have to be VMC, but you may file an IFR flight plan.

 

[timeoff]

I believe that is understood.

 

[Way2Broke]

I try my ass off to get my students as much IFR (even private) as possible. Some instructors are just too lazy to deal with it.

Private students in actual? I'm sure that does the student alot of good <sarcastic>. I'd say that might even set yourself up for a private non instrument rated pilot that thinks it okay to blast off into IFR.

 

[down2mins]

I agree with the rest that it all comes down to the regs or approved TCO. However, it might just be a school rule. I remember the University 141 program I went through allowed some of the Commercial XC's to be IFR. However, it was policy that students (even if you were licensed Private/Instrument) could not go into solid IMC unless a CFII was onboard. We could file IFR but only go if we could prove to the Chief that our route would be through mostly VMC (meaning - we could pop into and out of clouds...just not remain in anything solid or do approaches down to mins). Anyway...I digress...just my $.02.

 

[siucavflight]

Private students in actual? I'm sure that does the student alot of good <sarcastic>. I'd say that might even set yourself up for a private non instrument rated pilot that thinks it okay to blast off into IFR.

I do hope that you are joking? What better way is there to get your private pilot their three hours of IFR time than taking them into the clouds?

 

[minitour]

I do hope that you are joking? What better way is there to get your private pilot their three hours of IFR time than taking them into the clouds?

I agree...and I find the opposite. Usually once their hours are up I get "I can see now why the instrument rating is so important".

-mini

 

[cobraman]

Don't listen to this Buffet idiot! He instructed a WHOLE 7 hours in an aircraft at DCA. He spent 8 hours teaching in the sim. This is the voice of experience?
He doesn't have a clue wtf he's talking about. Plain and simple.

 

[labbats]

I like pie

 

[cobraman]

me too.. You guys should see the half dozen emails I receive EVERYDAY from this character. HE really needs to seek some professional help. I have become a TARGET for this no neck character that represents everything he hates about DCA.

 

[cobraman]

I do hope that you are joking? What better way is there to get your private pilot their three hours of IFR time than taking them into the clouds?

People think that taking a private student will teach them it's okay to venture into clouds. Nothing could be further from the truth. You take a student into a HOT florida mid afternoon cumulous could and they will probably never want to return! That is, after they see what their lunch looks like!:laugh: They usually gain a new respect for instrument flying.

About this IFR cross country thing, I had a commercial student go to marathon on their solo. He landed and waited around for the clouds to clear and called me. The weather wasn't going to get better. So I told him if he felt comfortable, file and fly the thing home. He got about 2.5 hrs actual and shot an ILS down to 400ft. GOOD ON HIM. (AND HE WAS SOLO!!!!) He only had his instrument ticket for about 2 weeks. I took him thru instrument and commercial. I was very proud of him seeing he respected what he learned in instrument and felt wise enough to make sound decisions.

(Dave, if you read this, I was on the porch smoking that night waiting for you to fly over the house!) Nice job bud!:beer:

 

[cobraman]

You just keep getting better and better. I have NEVER failed ANY STANDZ RIDE! Remember, I wasn't the loser that was asked to leave! Just so you can see this.

Scott, YOU WERE GOING TO GET FIRED! REMEMBER?

 

[cobraman]

So you think a number is a number? Your a fricken ZERO in my book. So you care to DENY the fact you only instructed for 7 hours in a DCA aircraft? You say you have 7thousand hours right? Ha!!!! might wanna try dropping a ZERO off the end of that. I choose to smoke, BFDeal. My choice, I don't criticize your love of little boys.uke:

 

[cobraman]

Here's a thought butternuts, STAY ON TOPIC! This thread is about IFR, not my car, not the fact you sucked as an instructor and couldn't hack it and not the fact I SMOKE!
You are a TROLL!!!

 

[gkrangers]

Way to ruin a good thread guys.

 

[cobraman]

I contributed plenty to this thread. This ********************ing troll insists on trashing anything I say due to the fact I work for DCA. ScrewHIM.

 

[cobraman]

OMG................

 

[siucavflight]

I contributed plenty to this thread. This ********************ing troll insists on trashing anything I say due to the fact I work for DCA. ScrewHIM.

You work for DCA???? I guess that I am done taking you seriously as well.

 

[TRGFlyer2006]

Buffetck, Dumbass,

Only you could turn an IFR converstion into an Anti- DCA conversation. NO RELATION, Trust me. Do you have anything relavant to speak about other than how DCA FIRED you?

If not, Stick to what you know..... NOTHING!!!!!

Oh, and BTW, I have No affiliation with DCA, Trust me "C" Sucker

 

[TRGFlyer2006]

Here's another post you've Butt F*ed
DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING PERTAINING TO FLIGHT TRAINING TO SPEAK ABOUT?
IF NOT, PLLLELEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!! STFU!!!!!!!!

 

[Way2Broke]

Back on topic, I do not see any problem with doing part of the 3 hours in actual with a student, however at some point you are going to have to be simulated to practice the unusual attitudes (like those found in this thread). I do however have a problem with consitantly filing with a private applicant just to get on top to train. Every now and then sure, but every time the weather is down, no way. Take the opportunity to do ground work, because we all know its hard to get a student to come in to do ground if you schedule it.

 

[CaptETWes]

I'm talking about like the xcountrys and stuff...like the solo long, and the night dual, etc...

141, Appendix D specifically states that the 2 required dual Commercial XCs must be in day and night VFR conditions. This is to say at a minimum, one leg can be done during the day to KXYZ, then wait until nighttime and then return to your home base. Both XCs do not have to be out-and-backs. For training purposes, a XC is anything greater than 50NM so a one-legger is considered a XC by FAA standards. But, be it that you are building time for the commercial, milk it for all it's worth.

So, I would dispute what someone else posted when they said the FAR/AIM says it needs to be only VMC. VFR and VMC are two different concepts. If you flew these flights VFR-on-top and if the examiner caught it (by seeing actual logged or even approaches), he could make a case that the flights were not conducted in accordance with your school's 141 certificate. In any case, you can always get clarification from your school's Chief Instructor or the schools' designated FAA POI.

My advice is to keep it strictly VFR for the dual XCs. All of my 700+ dual given was at a major university 141 program and I never conducted these flights on an IFR flight plan.

It's also interesting to point out that 141, Appendix D doesn't specify what conditions the long Commercial solo XC must be conducted under (ie VFR/IFR). However, my 141 program would not allow students to go solo in IMC even if they were IFR rated so I was never faced with this question. If your school's TCO allows student solo flight in IMC then you could make a case for this particular flight to be conducted in IMC.

Just be smart and use your good judgement; it's all a matter of risk. Don't be so hung up into getting actual. In none of my airline interviews was I questioned as to why I only had 13 hrs. of actual. I did have hundreds of hours of sim time and hood time combined so it's all in how you use your training.

 

[CaptETWes]

Back on topic, I do not see any problem with doing part of the 3 hours in actual with a student, however at some point you are going to have to be simulated to practice the unusual attitudes (like those found in this thread). I do however have a problem with consitantly filing with a private applicant just to get on top to train. Every now and then sure, but every time the weather is down, no way. Take the opportunity to do ground work, because we all know its hard to get a student to come in to do ground if you schedule it.

I agree completely. Private students are so impressionable that the gung-ho, actual-seeking instructor can end up having a negative impact on a new student. The very basics of flying need to be learned with visual cues and references. Lots of cloud time early on can lead to bad habits, mainly reliance up the gauges and a lack of the "see and avoid" concept. Privates need to focus their eyes out of the cockpit the most.

 

[kaj837]

Okay, I have to ask. What happened to this Buffettck guy? It appears that all of his posts have been deleted, and he is no longer in the directory. I also notice that several of these thread show 3 or more pages, and when I try to go to one of the later ones, I stay on an earlier page. I assume that this is because of the deletion of his posts. Is this correct, or is something wrong? Did he get banned because of his perpetual axe grinding? Just curious.

 

[The_Russian]

§ 61.129 Aeronautical experience.

.....................
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
.......................

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and

Straight from the book. First two must be flown in VFR conditions, last big one does not specify. Thus, it can be performed in IFR conditions assuming the pilot is IFR rated. I flew my 250nm XC IFR and I went to Comair (DCA) for my ASEL.