No flame, looking for PFT

[Godvek]

I'll have to disagree. First year pay stinks, to that we'll all agree. Except maybe Publishers and jimpilot. But PFT is nothing more than a situation where the applicant's ability and desire to write a check is the most important criteria in the selection process. That differs greatly from an employer who selects the best pilot/person possible. I'm not exactly certain of the thinking behind low first year pay, but it has nothing to do with the selection process. In that, their is NO comparison between PFT and low first year pay.

regards,
enigma

I agree with you there, however both ends are trying to do the same thing by keeping training costs low. Well respected airlines are always going to be able to choose who they want, compared to a bottom of the barrel operator. I would like to know why airlines pay you nothing your first year, if it is to offset all the initial training costs, you are in a sense still paying for the training.

 

[enigma]

I agree with you there, however both ends are trying to do the same thing by keeping training costs low. Well respected airlines are always going to be able to choose who they want, compared to a bottom of the barrel operator. I would like to know why airlines pay you nothing your first year, if it is to offset all the initial training costs, you are in a sense still paying for the training.

godvek, back when PFT was rampant, the check you wrote had nothing to do with training costs. Period, end of sentence. Companies used hiring as a source of revenue. If saving money on training costs had been the issue, then a pilot with prior qualification would have been hired without writing the check. That was not the case. If you were current and qualified in the E120 at Mesa, and you wanted to jump over Comair, you had to write Comair a check for upwards of $12k for your "training". You might say that the "training" was for indoc, which is airline specific, but I wouldn't if I were you. That line of argument will end up proving that the check you wrote was in fact, for nothing more than the opportunity to sit in ground school, because that indoc is FAR required and the company CAN'T save by shortcutting it.

But the PFT'rs got ahead, up until the market they created (oversupply of pilots willing to work for nothing) caught up to the majors, now there are a whole bunch of PFT'rs furloughed from their dream major. Sometimes life just ain't fair.

enigma

 

[CDVdriver]

Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,891

Aircraft Experience: lots
Flight Experience: civilian
Ratings: DC9 LR-JET B737 BAe3100
Current Position: patiently waiting for the call
Total Time: >1500

Sorry bud, but I'd rather not help you help a foreigner come to this country and take a job that could go to someone who actually has to stay here.

Good luck to your friend, but if he/she wants to fly in Europe, then let him fly in Europe."

That sounds a little scary enigma, what are you ?
TT>1500 patiently waiting for a job huh, my contact is going t there trying to find some time because he was turned down on his last interview for having low TT.
He's not interested in your (future, maybe ) job.
He will be here to finish training in a way.
Spend $$$$$ in this country, you object?
Never mind .........

 

[enigma]

Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,891

Aircraft Experience: lots
Flight Experience: civilian
Ratings: DC9 LR-JET B737 BAe3100
Current Position: patiently waiting for the call
Total Time: >1500

Sorry bud, but I'd rather not help you help a foreigner come to this country and take a job that could go to someone who actually has to stay here.

Good luck to your friend, but if he/she wants to fly in Europe, then let him fly in Europe."

That sounds a little scary enigma, what are you ?
TT>1500 patiently waiting for a job huh, my contact is going t there trying to find some time because he was turned down on his last interview for having low TT.
He's not interested in your (future, maybe ) job.
He will be here to finish training in a way.
Spend $$$$$ in this country, you object?
Never mind .........

if your buddy is looking to finish training, why would he be looking for a job? The last time I checked, training was training, and working was working.

What am I? Good question, who the heck knows.

What am I not? I'm not someone who climbs the ladder on the backs of other human beings. I've been lucky in my career progression, if you call being over forty and still at a mid level position lucky, and for that I'm thankful, but I try to not take advantage of others and expect the same in return.

I'm patiently waiting for SWA in case you haven't figured it out. In case you haven't noticed from my 18xx someodd posts, I'm a Captain for Spirit Airlines. What else ya wanna know?

enigma

 

[CDVdriver]

Nothing personal Enigma, I just got a little agitated that's all.
My apologies.
This guy is asking me if I can help him out get some more experience to make a better chance getting a job in Europe.
Whether we like it or not PFT will not go away, simply because of the supply/demand.
We probably know better then to pay, a lot of these less experienced hope fulls don't.
Nothing we can change about it.
I wish I had $40k extra 4 years ago, I'd be sitting by a window seat eating shrimp and drinking sparkly water iso behind my little screen now.
Anyway any suggestions on where to go not to go?
Thanks,

 

[ackattacker]

Nothing personal Enigma, I just got a little agitated that's all.
My apologies.
This guy is asking me if I can help him out get some more experience to make a better chance getting a job in Europe.
Whether we like it or not PFT will not go away, simply because of the supply/demand.
We probably know better then to pay, a lot of these less experienced hope fulls don't.
Nothing we can change about it.
I wish I had $40k extra 4 years ago, I'd be sitting by a window seat eating shrimp and drinking sparkly water iso behind my little screen now.
Anyway any suggestions on where to go not to go?
Thanks,

This thread is ludicrous. You should realize that no one is going to be so bold as to actually suggest a PFT operator on this board. Maybe someone will PM you, who knows. However, most of us have a little INTEGRITY. Many of us have friends who are struggling through the CFI/Banner Tow/135 ranks to land that right seat job and would sooner pimp out our daughters than help some non-english speaking non-qualified jerk buy that job from under their feet.

PFT is NOT inevitable, as you have stated. I happen to work for an airline that at one point in it's history did have a PFT program (not something I'm proud of, and it was before my time). This was a relatively benign sort of PFT because it was single-pilot 135, so the PFT fellow in the right seat wasn't actually taking anyones job. It's never going to happen again, here, and you know why? PFT is UNSAFE. It's putting unqualified people in a position of significant responsibility. It overloads the captain and pisses him/her off, and leads to overall poor moral. I would rather fly in a B1900 with a SINGLE qualified pilot than a B1900 with a qualified captain and an right seat occupant. What kind of CRM can you really expect in an emergency? PFT is not inevitable because most operators recognize that passenger-carrying revenue flights are NOT training flights. The right seat position is FAA mandated on 121 flights for reasons of safety, not training.

Also, you state that "there's nothing that we can do to change it". There's plenty we can do. In fact, the pilot group as a whole has done a remarkable job of limiting the spread of PFT. One of the ways is that PFT guys are stigmatized for the rest of their careers... many consider them scabs. Does your "friend" really want that?

If you had $40k extra 4 years ago and paid for a right-seat 1900 job then you'd probably still be flying a 1900 today, and consider yourself lucky. I doubt the FO would be handing you shrimp and sparkly water. If you have a job now where you sit in front of a computer, then you're probably better off than you would be if you did PFT. If you have that kind of money to throw at your flying career, you're better off just buying the multi time until you can get a legitimate flying job. If I had to do it over again, and I was a 250 hour commercial pilot who's trust fund just handed me $25k, I'd buy 100 multi with the first $10k then put the rest in the bank and work as a CFI until I could land a GOOD regional or corporate job (and I don't mean flying 1900's.)

Europe has a system whereby low-time pilots can become qualified and land a flying job. It is not PFT. I'm not familiar with all the details, but it does sound like your "friend" is unwilling or unqualified to go the normal route, and hence wants to come do PFT in the states. Deez Nutz.

 

[msuspartans24]

It's putting unqualified people in a position of significant responsibility. It overloads the captain and pisses him/her off, and leads to overall poor moral. I would rather fly in a B1900 with a SINGLE qualified pilot than a B1900 with a qualified captain and an right seat occupant. What kind of CRM can you really expect in an emergency? PFT is not inevitable because most operators recognize that passenger-carrying revenue flights are NOT training flights. The right seat position is FAA mandated on 121 flights for reasons of safety, not training.

Who are you to say that that person is not qualified? I think the faa says that a commercial pilot requires 250 hours. I also think that the 1900 requires a two man crew for 121. What about the military? how many hours do you think those guys have flying around in a tweet or t-6?

CRM? what kind of CRM can you expect in an emergency? I'd say you can expect what that person was trained too.

You have no idea what your talking about.

 

[MachPi]

I think it's stretching to say a PFTer is unqualified. If he has the hours, with no strikes against him, he's qualified. But that doesn't mean he's not a jerk. He's a total jerk. What he does, in essence, is he sees this long queue in which people are patiently waiting for their chance to fly where they want to fly, and decides to cut in line.

Line-cutters infuriate everyone who isn't a line-cutter. If somebody got in front of me at the Wendy's queue by telling the cashier he'd make it worth his while, I'd be pissed off. That's what PFTers do.

You can say it's economics; I say it's civility. The guy might be qualified, but in the end he's just a jerk who cut in line.

 

[LXJ31]

What about the military? how many hours do you think those guys have flying around in a tweet or t-6?

You have no idea what your talking about.

Apples and frickin' oranges. The men and women in military flight training have done far, far more than cut a check to even make it to UPT. You can not say with a straight face that person with a couple hundred hours undergoing training in a T-37 is going to be in the same category as some swinging richard who blew his trust fund to throw gear in a Metroliner.

Its been proven ad naseum, PFT is wrong, unethical, immoral etc.

 

[msuspartans24]

Apples and frickin' oranges. The men and women in military flight training have done far, far more than cut a check to even make it to UPT. You can not say with a straight face that person with a couple hundred hours undergoing training in a T-37 is going to be in the same category as some swinging richard who blew his trust fund to throw gear in a Metroliner.

Its been proven ad naseum, PFT is wrong, unethical, immoral etc.

(with a straight face)
First of all don't assume that every person that goes to a F/O program is "blowing their trust fund". That's just being ignorant, and not knowing what your talking about.

"throwing gear in a metroliner" nice assumption, but have you been through any of the programs out there?

 

[MachPi]

"throwing gear in a metroliner" nice assumption, but have you been through any of the programs out there?

I think his underlying point is that he HASN'T been through one of those programs, and that he's not the kind of person who would go through one.

 

[msuspartans24]

I think his underlying point is that he HASN'T been through one of those programs, and that he's not the kind of person who would go through one.

Well that's fine if he isn't the type of person to go through one of those programs, but where does someone like that come off judging the training standards if he has no experience in that environment?

I can respect someone's opinion on a "PFT" program, but don't knock the standards or level of training that people recieve there, because most of the time the people who are "assuming" are dead wrong. They have no idea what goes on at some of these programs. They just assume because they hear things, and read different post from similar people on forums.

 

[C601]

CDVdriver,

I'll try and give you the best advice, as i'm from Europe flown there and recieved a CAA/JAA ATPL/IR/ME, from a UK school.

Most airlines in Europe dont care about how many hours you have, when you starting out, i have friends who had about 300-500hrs TT and where able to get a job with Aer lingus or British Airways, flying on right seat of a A320 or a 737, it maybe not like that now, but not too long ago it was possible

A close family memeber who is currently in training here in the states, sitting the JAA Course, mostly likely get hired flying FO, on a ATR 42. And i know he will only have about 300hrs TT.

Anyways having a few hrs flying 121, PFT or Not, will not have a big impact on if he gets a job or not back in Europe. I'd tell him to save his money. A JAA/ATPL is the key to getting a job in Europe, JAA/CPL, dont cut it anymore.

 

[ackattacker]

Who are you to say that that person is not qualified? I think the faa says that a commercial pilot requires 250 hours. I also think that the 1900 requires a two man crew for 121. What about the military? how many hours do you think those guys have flying around in a tweet or t-6?

CRM? what kind of CRM can you expect in an emergency? I'd say you can expect what that person was trained too.

You have no idea what your talking about.

I think I do know what I'm talking about... although I've never been through PFT myself (or course) I've been in the industry long enough to meet a number of people who have, and who have been Captain at PFT airlines. Of course not ALL of the PFT pilots are unqualified or unsafe. But a much higher percentage are. Simply having 250 hours and a fistfull of dollars does not alone make you qualified to be an airline pilot. The PFT airlines will be more than happy to take your money, regardless of your skill, language ability, CRM, body odor, whatever. Then they will put you through the bare minimum FAA mandated training and make sure you pass. After all, what do they care if you can't fly? They just want your money. The B1900 is certified single-pilot anyway (If I had a quarter for every time I'd heard that...)

After you've finished your PFT time, where the captains probably won't even let you fly (think I'm kidding?) You might get an interview to stay on with the company... that's when they'll actually take a look at you, when they have to actually start paying you. How can you even compare this type of situation with the military? Do you know how many people wash out of military flight programs before they get to even 20 hours? How many people do you think "wash out" of PFT training programs?

I'm sure every PFT airline is a little different, and maybe not all are this bad... who knows... but I'll stand by my statements as overall representative.

 

[Axel]

There is something vaguely familiar about this. Less' see here, hmmmm.

A foreign national wants to come to the US and get a few hours quick and dirty in "advanced" type airplanes... What does this remind me of?