No comment on ASA PBS LOA yet?

[aircombat]

The case you need to be looking at is Japan Air Lines vs. International Association of Machinists (1975). The court ruled that scope issues, in this case the issue of outsourcing, were permissive subjects of bargaining.

But the specific case is not important. What's important is what the NMB actually recognizes, and they don't recognize scope provisions as being mandatory subjects of bargaining. The reason for this is what the Railway Labor Act actually says.

Section 2, First of the Act requires the parites to: "...exert every reasonable effort to make and maintain agreements concerning rates of pay, rules, and working conditions."

Those are the three items specified in the Act as being mandatory. In other words, compensation (which includes retirement and insurance), scheduling, and related working conditions (vacation, sick leave, etc.). A grievance process is also required by a separate section of the Act, so that is also mandatory. Other subjects are permissive. You keep looking at cases and documents that pertain to the National Labor Relations Act, which has very different rules on just about everything than the RLA does.

Thank you PCL for your constructive input. I’m ready to admit that I was wrong about this issue. There is no question that there is a lot of grey area on this issue and it is still being tested in courts.

I did read the example you gave and it’s about subcontracting not mergers. However it does mention “scope”. It was also a long time ago and many laws have changed since then. The most recent example I can find is the Frontier/RAH case. The RAH employees failed to get a single carrier determination “(only the union or employee can petition for a single carrier determination)”. They lost because like us they are separate operating certificates but also because there was no intermingling of the companies. I know it’s a long shot however there has been asset swaps which could constitute intermingling. If a single carrier determination is reached then it would fall under Public Law 110-161 which is what the latest mergers have been using. A good article about that and airline labor mergers can be found here http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hrd/pubs/airlinemg.pdf

Since all of that is a long shot if people are interested in onelist, it would be even more important to hold onto PBS. It would be the only leverage we have to get the company to talk about it “in good faith”.

 

[OCP]

Not to but in on the argument but where did the "OneList" thing come from? I mean the term. The way everyone is using capitals and one word makes it look like it's copyrighted or something.

 

[Speedtape]

Not to but in on the argument but where did the "OneList" thing come from? I mean the term. The way everyone is using capitals and one word makes it look like it's copyrighted or something.

I guess the same question could be asked about the origin of "OCP" or "Speedtape."

 

[PCL_128]

I did read the example you gave and it’s about subcontracting not mergers. However it does mention “scope”. It was also a long time ago and many laws have changed since then.

The RLA has not changed since then. It hasn't been touched in decades.

I know it’s a long shot however there has been asset swaps which could constitute intermingling.

ALPA has fought for several single-carrier petitions, and it's incredibly difficult. Your MEC is doing the smart thing: waiting for Inc. to screw up and integrate too much of their operation. At that point, they'll be able to go to the NMB and request a single-carrier ruling. At this point, based on past precedence, there just isn't enough operational integration to be successful in a single-carrier filing. Be patient and the time will come.

Since all of that is a long shot if people are interested in onelist, it would be even more important to hold onto PBS. It would be the only leverage we have to get the company to talk about it “in good faith”.

The company has no obligation to talk to you about OneList. PBS isn't leverage, because they know in Section 6 that they can get a less favorable PBS system for you, so they would have no incentive to bargain over OneList. In fact, you would probably have to give up some scope protections in order to buy back the LOA that you want to pass up now. Otherwise, you'll end up with a far worse PBS system in Section 6.

This is your prime opportunity to get a favorable PBS system. The company wants it sooner than Section 6 in order to be more efficient now rather than later, so you have the leverage. If you turn it down and they have to wait until Section 6, then you've lost your only leverage.

 

[aircombat]

Actually if you've been reading his posts through the whole thing his point has changed about 5 times. This one list thing is the latest.

I wouldn’t say my “point has changed 5 times”. I would say that I have 5 reasons why PBS is a bad idea. Probably more than 5. Onelist is just another really important reason why this LOA should be turned down. If you really care about your future. Peaople say I'm worried what they could do to us if we hold out. They are very limited at what they can do because of the no-furlough clause. They have already done the worse and you don't even realize it.

 

[www.]

After everyones ideas on the PBS issue I think we all can agree that "aircombat" will vote no. After 26 pages can the MOD close this thread please. Can you say dead horse?

 

[USCtrojan]

Read the above very carefully!

I'm not as computer savvy as you so I'll try and respond in my own manner.....

How many of those 136 furloughed would still have their job with OneList Speedtape? Speculation, sure, but my guess there wouldn't be as many on the street. That's greater job security.

United just secured funding from many different places. My guess is they will prosper here in the future as the economy pendulum swings the other direction. And SkyWest Inc. did change that 80% rule as far as connecting out of Atlanta -- they can swap as much as they'd like between ASA and SkyWest.....How many flights does ASA operate out of SLC? If you believe Delta is the one scheduling these flights, that is your illusion. Inc. has complete control over ASA...What's to say they declare Ch. 11 on the ASA side, gut our Contract and replace airframes (as they already have) to replace them with their own. Fairy tale? Maybe, but that's what I believe would happen should YoNited fail. Wouldn't have to worry about that if we were one. Jerry is gonna win, always. I'm glad we're playing ball right now, maybe enough of us have learned what happens when we don't?

If you are under the illusion the Union dictates anything to the Company, then your reasoning is flawed. Fortunately, our Mgmt. team, for the first time in ASA's history, is working with the Union. That can change any time they feel like it. One of the reasons I don't want to be sold, Speedtape. I don't believe any other Regional Airline out there has as good as working relationship AND as financially secure.

Not that my commute is any of your concern, it's quite easy (2 to 3 a month). That helps when your a senior pilot, Speedtape. One leg with lots of days off. Have almost 3 weeks straight without vacation now. Family in Atlanta so no crashpad. It's really ideal for me.

You are an ALPA chest thumping devoted lover. You would sacrifice anything to keep the Union on the property. Understandable. If the Lists were combined, chances are you'd lose Union representation. That's why you are not in favor of OneList. Good for you.

United we stand, divided we fall. Cliche, yes, but quite the reality.


Trojan

 

[aircombat]

The company has no obligation to talk to you about OneList. PBS isn't leverage, because they know in Section 6 that they can get a less favorable PBS system for you, so they would have no incentive to bargain over OneList. In fact, you would probably have to give up some scope protections in order to buy back the LOA that you want to pass up now. Otherwise, you'll end up with a far worse PBS system in Section 6.

How can there be a “worse PBS system”? Maybe by using a different computer program.
There really isn’t much in this LOA concerning PBS. The vacation bit is about the only thing I noticed. I just can’t see the pilots voting in a PBS system with no vacation language in it, and I doubt that the company would wait until it went to arbitration. Plus the union could say no to arbitration.

 

[aircombat]

Not to but in on the argument but where did the "OneList" thing come from? I mean the term. The way everyone is using capitals and one word makes it look like it's copyrighted or something.

It’s important enough that it should be copyrighted. If I had to guess it was probably someone forgetting to use the spacebar and it stuck.

 

[Speedtape]

I'm not as computer savvy as you so I'll try and respond in my own manner.....

How many of those 136 furloughed would still have their job with OneList Speedtape? Speculation, sure, but my guess there wouldn't be as many on the street. That's greater job security.
All 136, and maybe more. The block hours were reduced. Less work, less need for workers is the reason 136 were furloughed.

United just secured funding from many different places. My guess is they will prosper here in the future as the economy pendulum swings the other direction.
United is leveraged to the hilt. Their plans are based on a turnaround next year. If that does not happen, Kaput!
And SkyWest Inc. did change that 80% rule as far as connecting out of Atlanta -- they can swap as much as they'd like between ASA and SkyWest.....How many flights does ASA operate out of SLC?
Have you seen that language. The answer is NO. ASA operates no flights out of SLC, but Mesaba does! Delta controls who goes where.

If you believe Delta is the one scheduling these flights, that is your illusion. Inc. has complete control over ASA...

Delta controls all scheduling. Inc. has some control, but they do what they are told.
What's to say they declare Ch. 11 on the ASA side, gut our Contract and replace airframes (as they already have) to replace them with their own. Fairy tale? Maybe, but that's what I believe would happen should YoNited fail. Wouldn't have to worry about that if we were one. Jerry is gonna win, always. I'm glad we're playing ball right now, maybe enough of us have learned what happens when we don't?
ASA will not be going away. If Yournited goes away, ASA will still be in business and will still have the largest presence in ATL. Read the DCI contract. We are no where near Chapter 11 and never will be.

If you are under the illusion the Union dictates anything to the Company, then your reasoning is flawed. Fortunately, our Mgmt. team, for the first time in ASA's history, is working with the Union. That can change any time they feel like it. One of the reasons I don't want to be sold, Speedtape. I don't believe any other Regional Airline out there has as good as working relationship AND as financially secure.
They are working with the Union because they know that they have to have the pilot group participation in meeting their performance goals. That is where they make their money. I think the Union serves a role and I would rather be represented by ALPA than Sapa.

Not that my commute is any of your concern, it's quite easy (2 to 3 a month). That helps when your a senior pilot, Speedtape. One leg with lots of days off. Have almost 3 weeks straight without vacation now. Family in Atlanta so no crashpad. It's really ideal for me.
Your commute would not change with OneList. Most likely, there would be fences that would be around for years. Your commute is not that easy. I guess it's good that it is ideal, since you will be commuting for the rest of your ASA career, Onelist or Separate.

You are an ALPA chest thumping devoted lover. You would sacrifice anything to keep the Union on the property. Understandable. If the Lists were combined, chances are you'd lose Union representation. That's why you are not in favor of OneList. Good for you.
I am an ALPA member, just like you. I am not a thumper, but it does irritate me when chumps attack a bargaining unit that has helped provide excellent pay rates, benefits, and work rules. ALPA was here when most of them signed on and Skywest has been in business longer than ASA. So why did you and they come here? Just curious. I am not in favor of Onelist because it would create a nightmare and it would place too much at risk. Most Skywest pilots are also against Onelist. It will never happen unless Inc. "wills" it and there are many reasons why that will not happen.

United we stand, divided we fall. Cliche, yes, but quite the reality.
Yonited Falls, and ASA will still be standing! Have a nice commute!


Trojan

How bout them Trojans!