No college success story

[pilotyip]

Flying my trusty old C-47 to AZO last week, I find out one of pax is an airline pilot. So invite him up to the cockpit to show him the cockpit, part 91 you know. Turns out he is a non-college grad, part 121 TJ Captain who just turned 24 yr. old. He is doing his degree on-line, and when he is 27 yr. old he will have around 6000TT, 5000 MEL 3000 TJ PIC and a four-year degree. This will coincide nicely with the June 2007 hiring boom. How does this compare to a 4-yr. degree guy who at age 23 has a CFII and 350 hr. The current 121 TJ PIC will be hired by CAL/SWA/JB/AirTran, etc., while the college grad will be going to Comair, Pinnacle, Cogan, etc. If you want to be a pilot fly airplanes. Oh I forgot, you go to college to have good time, my mistake.

 

[onthebeach]

Re: College...a related comment:

If you are going to invest time and money in a college education, by all means get a degree that is marketable in and of itself. The best choices are engineering and business administration. These majors will equip you with hard skills that will make you a better aviation business person, but much more important, will give you a back-up in case aviation does not pan out for you. And yes, that happens, for a variety of reasons, much more than we like to think.

Do not under any circumstances buy into a college or university "flight training" major that get you a degree in "Airways Science," or some other euphemism for aviation studies. That "degree" in and of itself is worthless in the market place. Do not be deceived, if you lose your medical you will no longer be a pilot, likewise if you lose your certificate due to difficulties with the Feds. Then try to get a good job with your worthless "Airways" degree.

Also, the "flight training" that you will receive in a college or university program will end up costing you three times as much and take three times longer than if you had gone to a reputable flight training establishment. You will enter the job market crippled by debt.

In summary, university aviation programs are the biggest, phoniest, and most hypocritical scams in aviation today. They make their money off your dreams and it goes to support people who have no experience in the real world and spend their lives sucking off a state-supported tit.

 

[macfly]

pilotyip, you have the best job in the world flying vitage WW2 aircraft, I am green with envy. My old man was typed in a DC-3, its one cool bird.

As for college, I'd follow onthebeach's advice.

 

[pilotyip]

I kinda follow beach's advice also, by all means go to college if that is your desire, but to go for an aviation degree when you want to be a pilot is in my humble opinion, a waste of money and time you could be building a flying career. I have seen too many succeed without a four yr degree.

 

[say again]

I have a great flying gig without the 4 yr degree, but it's not where I ultimately want to be. I know it's not required, but I'm sure it's holding me back. I am actively enrolled on-line gaining my degree. One day, hopefully, I want to be able supplement my income doing other things that I enjoy, while still flying .

 

[schoolio]

A college degree just says that you have the discipline and desire to get it done. I gained more "life knowledge" than book knowledge during my time in college. Before college, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. I ended up with an ROTC scholarship and got my 4 years courtesy of Uncle Sam.

For the airline pilot in pilotyip's story, to be a 121 TJ PIC at age 24 is impressive. It shows that you don't need that college degree as long as you work hard. I wish I could be in his shoes flying the big rigs.

But then the question arises - why is he working on his college degree now?

 

[i'mbatman]

There are a lot of 24 yr old 121 caps that HAVE a degree where I work.

 

[Redmeat]

For the airline pilot in pilotyip's story, to be a 121 TJ PIC at age 24 is impressive. It shows that you don't need that college degree as long as you work hard. I wish I could be in his shoes flying the big rigs.

But then the question arises - why is he working on his college degree now?

The "big rig" he is flying is probably a CRJ.

 

[banned username 2]

The "big rig" he is flying is probably a CRJ.

No kidding, and that is probably as far as he will ever get... PilotYip and his same old song... "2007 hiring boom"... Silly little man, haven't you seen, Oil topping $70 a barrel, Many, MANY airlines already in or on the verge of Chapter 11 (a couple will probably go Chap 7)... The market will be flooded with highly qualified guys... But yes kids, skip college and go fly for some rat a$$ed freight operator in an old rat-a$$ed TJ (Turbo-Jet) so in 2007 you can still be stuck at the rat a$$ed freight operator and have no other options except to continue to work at the rat a$$ed freigh operator...

"Past Performance is no Guarantee of Future Results"... Just because 1997 and 1987 were hiring booms is absolutely no idication that 2007 will be a hiring boom... Things are VERY different today than they were in 1995 (well since 2007 is going to be just like 1997 & 1987 then 2005 must be just like 1995 & 1985, right?)...

Let's review the differences between now and then:
Nearly a dozen airlines in Chap 11...
Several more on the doorstep of Chap 11...
Airlines loosing millions of $$ per day, EACH...
Hurricane Katrina hits the main US Oil portal...
Oil at $70 a barrel... and rising...
Gas at nearly $3.50/gal... Nearly $6.00/gal in Atlanta...
Fuel shortages imminant due to pipeline/refinery shutdowns...
Airlines with thousands on furlough...
Several airlines wanting to furlough more pilots (furloughing is the opposite of a "hiring boom" last time I checked)...
The TSA (need I say more?)...
U.S. Economy still very "soft", skyrocketing energy costs will soften it much further...

Northwest Airlines wants to furlough 1,200 more pilots, if they furloughed them today (which won't happen today, obviously) and started recalls in 6 months from today (unlikely) at a nominal rate of 50 pilots per month (unlikely) it would take them 24 months to recall all the pilots furloughed today, and then another 10 months to recall the 500 or so they currently have on furlough before they could even think of hiring from the street... So that would be 40 months (absolute minimum) from today... September 2005 + 40 months = January 2009 which would be a "best case" scenario... A more realistic timeline would take 9 months to furlough the 1,200 pilots, the most senior pilot furloughed would remain on furlough at least 9 months, recalls of 40 pilots per month on and off to account for attrition and other factors would put the total recall closer to street hiring somewhere in late 2010 or early 2011...

In addition, Northwest has said for every $0.01 jet fuel rises costs them $50 million more per year in fuel costs... Well last week I filled up my car for $2.69/gal and last night on my way home, gas prices were $3.39/gal, which is an increase in one week of $0.70 per gallon... Now let's assume wholesale jet fuel rose 1/2 this amount, or $0.35 per gallon... 35 x 50 = $1,750,000,000.00 per year in additional cost for Northwest airlines alone... Hope they have a lot of money tree's up there in MSP...

Hey, I hope I'm wrong about all this, but I think it's time to take off the rose colored glasses and see the world for what it is...

Go to college, do well, have a back up plan... Today a college degree is like a high school degree was 30 years ago, a LOT of good jobs require one... Inside and outside of aviation... Does having a college degree make you a better pilot (stick and rudder skills)? Nope, but if there are two candidates for a job and the only difference is a college degree, I'd rather be the one with the degree...

 

[Chronic Jetlag]

I've flown with guys with and without 4 year degrees and there is no discernible difference in their airmanship or stick & rudder or skills. I have respect for guys who put in the time to get their degree but I also have the same respect for guys w/o degrees whose experience commensurates with age. This debate could go on forever but it's the company that dictates who gets hired.

 

[JohnDoe]

Falcon Capt:


BINGO!

 

[FN FAL]

The 2007 hiring binge will be in corrections...because of recent furloughs of police officers and a downturn in the economy, prisons, probation, parole and eventually law enforcement will be hiring in droves. Unfortunately, privatization of prisons will bring about a race to the bottom and pay for training, but there will be hiring in 2007.

 

[The Truth]

You're kidding, right?

Please don't confuse an "on-line degree" with a "four year degree". We all criticize PFT (for good reason, obviously) yet online degree's are nothing short of PFD (a.k.a "Pay For Degree"). The traditional, accredited four-year degree actually involves self-discipline in managing a semester load of classes, and studying one's A@@ off in order to, eventually, graduate (which is an earned privelege, and by no means a given). I can't say I've ever heard of anyone "dropping out" from online college? On the contrary, an online degree involves nothing more than clicking "ready to take test" on your computer, and simply flipping through the textbook in order to find the answers. In other words, online degrees are nothing short of an open-book test (and, seriously, how difficult is that?). Kind of reminds me of cheating, personally.

In lieu of this, anyone with an online degree is hereby excluded from EVER discussing "lowering the bar" in this industry, or standing on their soapbox pounding their chest that they earned their way to a job via the "traditional" route. But, don't worry, Sally Struthers would be SO proud of that Dell University degree hanging on your wall! And, oh yeah, you're a "college graduate" too (snicker)

The TRUTH hurts!

 

[Diesel]

A couple of thoughts.

I'm currently enrolled in an online degree from ERAU. I think that an online degree from an acredited school is just as tough as attending classes. I don't just get to focus on going to classes with an online degree. I am trying to balance life, work and a degree. At night after a long day on the road I have to force myself to read my book and get my answer the questions that the instructor poses on the message board. If I don' answer them i lose credit that simple. I just took my final in one class that I had to sit down and have my protector sign too. No books or anything. just like a normal classroom.

When i was in college all i had to do was show up take a few classes drink a bunch of beers and have the teacher spoon feed me the info. With online classes i'm the teacher and also the student. I have to figure out what the teacher is trying to make me understand by constantly checking the message board and seeing what they are posting.

A college degree is essential. I'm currently being held back because i don't have a degree. (damn fedex college degree requirement). I need to get this degree so i can move forward.

So don't try to dimish what i do everyday because i'm not drinking and hanging out with my fraternity brothers. (yes i'm a brother) I am juggling a full time job, a wife and a teacher that wants no excuses.

 

[TonyC]

Please don't confuse an "on-line degree" with a "four year degree". We all criticize PFT (for good reason, obviously) yet online degree's are nothing short of PFD (a.k.a "Pay For Degree"). The traditional, accredited four-year degree actually involves self-discipline in managing a semester load of classes, and studying one's A@@ off in order to, eventually, graduate (which is an earned privelege, and by no means a given). I can't say I've ever heard of anyone "dropping out" from online college? On the contrary, an online degree involves nothing more than clicking "ready to take test" on your computer, and simply flipping through the textbook in order to find the answers. In other words, online degrees are nothing short of an open-book test (and, seriously, how difficult is that?). Kind of reminds me of cheating, personally.

In lieu of this, anyone with an online degree is hereby excluded from EVER discussing "lowering the bar" in this industry, or standing on their soapbox pounding their chest that they earned their way to a job via the "traditional" route. But, don't worry, Sally Struthers would be SO proud of that Dell University degree hanging on your wall! And, oh yeah, you're a "college graduate" too (snicker)

The TRUTH hurts!

I'm guessing your degree was not in English.


I believe you underestimate the difficulty and the value of On-Line courses. In order to be accredited, they must meet certain standards.


If I had the misfortune of meeting Sally Struuthers at my front door, she would not be invited inside to look at any of my walls. Besides, my plaque is in a box in the closet.


Snicker at that of which you have no knowledge and you only embarrass yourself.



.

 

[pilotyip]

Back to basic

Back to the basics, if you are getting the degree to check a box on an application, it does not matter where it comes from or how you got it. For DA Capt good to hear from you again kinda like the old days, however you are off base, look at the hiring going on right now and it is not at the ratty cargo level. There is a pilot skill shortage developing on the entry level, the 2007 hiring boom is on track and in 21 months one will shown as being correct. If you are right the flying business is in trouble, if I am right the good times will be back.

 

[pilotyip]

wrong button

 

[Diesel]

tony i'm cringing when you proof read my post.

It's been a long day and if i read one more page i'm going to throw my textbook against the wall.

 

[viper548]

A lot of the online classes I had required that the tests be administered by a proctor. I'll admit going in residence is different than attending online but getting a degree online still requires a lot of work.

 

[Redmeat]

There is a pilot skill shortage developing on the entry level.

Pilotyip, that is exactly where an individual will stay in aviation without a degree, THE ENTRY LEVEL. I hate to bust your bubble but the story of your "airline pilot" with-out a degree really is not that impressive. My question is why are you so adamant about it? Did you not manage to finish college? Is this personal resentment of your own shortcomings? What gives? Doesn't make a lot of sense. I have been flying around in this biz for awhile now, and you are the only person I have heard who "preaches" not to get a degree. I almost think your doing it to get a rise out of people.

 

[TonyC]

tony i'm cringing when you proof read my post.

It's been a long day and if i read one more page i'm going to throw my textbook against the wall.

Unless it contains a claim of intellectual superiority I won't even bother. It's the guys that claim to be so intelligent but can't compose a proper sentence, much less a paragraph, that drive me mad.


But you can still throw the textbook against the wall if it'll make you feel better!








.

 

[Diesel]

I would but i think it would wake up the guest in the next hotel room.

maybe they are a fedex pilot. on second thought.

whack

 

[TonyC]

Some loony tune is trying to knock my hotel wall down! So much for sleeping during the day.










.

 

[PC12Cowboy]

Hmm...at 70 dollars a barrel...MAYBE the Airlines will RAIDE thier prices to make a profit and quit being the low price losers that they have become...people will still travel and they will just have to re budget....

 

[HMR]

Being "uneducated" has never affected my flying career.

 

[The Truth]

I'm guessing your degree was not in English.

Nope, sorry to say, just mechanical engineering.

The fact is that if you would take that online degree into an interview at a major accounting firm, or other professional industry outside of aviation, the interviewer would most likely be fighting back the urge to laugh you off of the premises. Let's see...candidate A has a degree from the University of Michigan, candidate B from Columbia, candidate C from NYU...and then there's candidate D with an online degree from the prestigious University of Phoenix (no one outside of aviation has ever HEARD of ERAU, so I won't even use that as an example). Just based on the above criteria, who doesn't make the cut?

Unlike the majority of other professions out there, aviation employers seem to have low regard for the traditional means of ACHIEVING a college degree. Applications oftentimes are limited to a simple check of a box when the question of "4-year degree" is asked. There is no distinction between earning a traditional degree, versus some online degree that's printed off from a "Congratulations, you're a college graduate" e-mail. And as long as that continues to be the case, more and more pilots will continue to BUY their degree, not earn it.

However, if indeed that furlough unfortunately comes, or one simply decides to get out of aviation, whatever amount of money was wasted on an online degree will be soon become painfully apparent. But, I guess it really doesn't matter, you were able to get seniority out of it all...right?

 

[hindsight2020]

Engineering as best choice... *BUZZARD* WRONG! Try again

If you are going to invest time and money in a college education, by all means get a degree that is marketable in and of itself. The best choices are engineering and business administration. These majors will equip you with hard skills that will make you a better aviation business person, but much more important, will give you a back-up in case aviation does not pan out for you. And yes, that happens, for a variety of reasons, much more than we like to think.

Do not under any circumstances buy into a college or university "flight training" major that get you a degree in "Airways Science," or some other euphemism for aviation studies. That "degree" in and of itself is worthless in the market place. Do not be deceived, if you lose your medical you will no longer be a pilot, likewise if you lose your certificate due to difficulties with the Feds. Then try to get a good job with your worthless "Airways" degree.

Also, the "flight training" that you will receive in a college or university program will end up costing you three times as much and take three times longer than if you had gone to a reputable flight training establishment. You will enter the job market crippled by debt.

In summary, university aviation programs are the biggest, phoniest, and most hypocritical scams in aviation today. They make their money off your dreams and it goes to support people who have no experience in the real world and spend their lives sucking off a state-supported tit.

Regarding the university flight programs, I agree with ya. Now regarding engineering....

After 7 years of doing what most people think is the safe route I can assure you that the "back up" value of an engineering degree is a MYTH. I agree about your assessment of the value of an aviation degree outside of aviation, however I'm afraid to tell you that in essence you're making NO point at all with that argument. What is the value of a profession chosen solely to have the 'perceived' notion of job security? None.

What's the job security in a entry-level defense contractor engineering job; assuming you actually want to use your particular type of engineering degree rather than be relegated to taking WHATEVER job offer you get regardless of interest [read THE REAL WORLD])? Less than your starving CFI job. I'll add that you'll probably find it so depressing you'll quit before the 18 months are up.

My point is you're going to be unhappy NOT flying a plane regardless. A degree pursued based on the economical contention, PROVIDED that one would otherwise would never touch that field with a 10 foot pole if able to fly, will leave you as empty as the job outlook of an aviation degree outside of aviation.

Now if yo must go about your life CONSTANTLY worrying about poking your eye out and ending your aviation career, business administration is a sound choice provided you're a proactive individual and have above avg. social skills. My best pick would be nursing, cake a$$ major and a huge return$$$ on investement, long hours but a lot of days off. Pharmacy, insane $$$ and half the work put for an engineering degree.

Engineering...that reminds me of that song, I think it's NAS that sings it,... "Take a walk with me n***a"...LOL too bad they don't let me give the campus tours at my Department; I could go on but I digress.

 

[viper548]

The fact is that if you would take that online degree into an interview at a major accounting firm, or other professional industry outside of aviation, the interviewer would most likely be fighting back the urge to laugh you off of the premises. Let's see...candidate A has a degree from the University of Michigan, candidate B from Columbia, candidate C from NYU...and then there's candidate D with an online degree from the prestigious University of Phoenix (no one outside of aviation has ever HEARD of ERAU, so I won't even use that as an example). Just based on the above criteria, who doesn't make the cut?

Where on the diploma or transcripts does it say anything about the degree being done online or in residence?

 

[banned username 2]

My question is why are you so adamant about it? Did you not manage to finish college? Is this personal resentment of your own shortcomings? What gives? Doesn't make a lot of sense. I have been flying around in this biz for awhile now, and you are the only person I have heard who "preaches" not to get a degree. I almost think your doing it to get a rise out of people.

The irony of the whole situation is that PilotYip doesn't have a degree, he has 2 degree's... BUT he is still stuck at the rat-assed freight level and is bitter because he never got (or maybe never capitalized on) the opportunity to progress beyond that level... Somehow or another he has convinced himself that college is a waste of time, and sitting in an old Falcon 20 instead of a classroom is somehow going to solve the problem that he has endured...

PilotYIP is bitter at an industry that he feels has shorted him... He is nearing retirement age and is in a job that most 20-somethings view as a stepping stone job, but unfortunately for PilotYIP, it isn't a stepping stone, it is the last stone on the road... I believe this has seriously skewed his view of the industry...

This industry is tough, there is no doubt about it... I don't have to tell you guys, we all live it every day... To come into this industry with the deck stacked against you from the start (no college degree) is a foolish move if you have the means to do otherwise... As pilots, we realize there are no 100% certainties, our job is about "risk mitigation", we do what we can to increase the likelyhood of the desired results... A VERY large percentage of pilots hired into the "desireable" jobs have college degrees, assessing that fact says that with a degree you are far more likely (however not certain) to achieve the goal of attaining a desireable flying job...

As I like to say "It ain't rocket science"... Put yourself in the group with the highest success rate and you will be more likely to succeed, don't do this and it will be an uphill battle the rest of your career...

Good luck...

 

[check6]

Who cares? PFT, no degree, degree, aviation degree. It all works. . .sadly.