No college degree......

[FN FAL]

I can agree with pilotyip. Just having a degree does not make you a good pilot, nor does it always make you a better employee. However, I do believe a college degree combined with a diverse LIFE EXPERIENCE, diverse WORK HISTORY and a proven track record of WORK ETHICS, makes one a formidable and valuable employee.

I met some officers in the navy that were some of the best leaders and department heads you would ever meet. Some were the biggest dinks that ever wore khaki. It was easy to pick through who those guys would be. Line officers that were not divers (it was a diving and salvage unit) possessed little skill in managing operations out in the field and they lacked technical expertise. They were office managers without common sense.

I think you see that in all branches of the service and in civilian life also. I mean how effective would a chief pilot or DO be if he wasn't a pilot?

I worked at a McDonalds while in high school. It was one of the most funnest and hard workingest places ever. An officer that crewed on the Nautilus during its polar ice cap history-setting cruise owned this particular McDonalds. His store was one that could set standards for work ethics and cleanliness for any business. Could that be because he not only had a degree, but also was highly trained to work in the tough environment of submarines? In subs, you have to know everybody else's job, plus your own, Officer or not.

A lot of emphasis is placed on just having a degree, but none seems to be placed on having experience to back it up.

I attended tech school for an associates in police science back in 1980 after getting out of the navy. It was great training, but what I am finding out during my return to school in the modern era of on-line distance learning, is that there have been many changes to the field of law enforcement since then. A fresh education is a good thing.

I also agree with you on another point pilotyip, a degree in aviation is probably not as good as an investment than an education in some other field. Should you lose your medical or fall out of love of aviation, you should have something to back up your resume.

I do not think I will ever be working as a prison guard or a police administrator or as a federal agent with my criminal justice degree (I am too old for that), but when I am done it will help me check that box on the next job application. In addition, it may open some doors to some good consulting or teaching jobs, should I decide to keep my freight dog job and work on the side or pursue a non-aviation career track.

I have a friend that has been working for SWA for some time now, and I do not believe he has more than a high school diploma. Moreover, I have met some other people that work for majors such as NWA and UAL that do not either. I do not see them in the newspapers as the killer and maimer of hundreds, nor do I feel that they are bad pilots either.

 

[English]

Somehow my post above was misinterpreted by pilotyip as being a "pro-non-degree" post. I am very much pro-degree. However, the original poster asked how far one could go up the ladder without the degree. I gave as factual an answer as I could muster. However, just because some people without degrees have been hired at airlines with a "degree preferred" requirement doesn't mean that all candidates in this category will be hired.

Sorry pilotyip, we still disagree.

 

[SquirrelDog]

Degree or no to degree...

++++Degree++++
Education doesn't make a better pilot but a better person.

Companies that are hiring have all different specifications these days. Some must have part 121 experience, some put great emphasis on military training, some want 2 and 4 year degrees. The question is do these requirements help or have anything to do with flying an aircraft that in most cases the person applying has not ever flown before? No, not really, you can teach a monkey to fly: Pilots are either aviators or there not.

The fact of the matter is the equipment these days that most of the airlines are operating require more of programming skills than actual flying skills. Thus, an applicant most posses a wide range of thinking, not just raw pilot abilities. Not to mention alot of flying is just sitting around, better educated people have better coversations in general. Pilot chatter can only go so far!

PilotYip,
Did you mention SWA or AWA the only 2 majors hiring right now? NO! that's because with the 5,500 apps on file at SWA , if you have no degree you have no interview=job. And thats great if your company doesn't require a degree, its not a major airline and you can get a job at Wal-Mart without a degree too, but that doesn't mean I want to work there.

Falcon Capt.,
I hear you man. And I'm tired of them rat a$$ 20's

tjo024,
Hey man back to your question, get the degree. You can go to some pretty good schools that have aviation programs you can get your ratings and you degree. The degree doesn't even have to be in aviation and 40K or lower. This I know.

Ok done now, as a disclaimer I did not graduate with an english major (or minor) and I is a pilot, so all you grammer nazi's go back to queer eye for the striaght guy.

Later
SD

 

[Flyingdutchman]

"Turbo Jet PIC
I have nothing against a college degree I have a couple. I just feel its importance in an aviation career is misplaced. Young aspiring pilots need exposure to alternate points of view. That is the my purpose for my stance. When it comes to getting an interview, turbo jet PIC will open more eyes than a college degree, now if the pilot has worked through an on-line degree to go with his/her 2000 hrs of Jet PIC, he/she will go to the front of the line every time. They will get that job at age 27-29 and have 30+ years to build seniority. You are wasting four years of quality flight time building opportunity going to college if your career goal is to be a pilot. Now if your career choice is to be a pilot (maybe) and you want that degree to fall back on. Get a real degree in something that has a market value, engineering, accounting, computer programming, difficult courses that develop your thinking abilities. To spend four years and 50K-100K to graduate with a degree in professional aviation with 500 hours of flight time, in my view, is a waste of time and money. If you want to go to college I will not think less of you, but if your goal is to be a pilot FLY as much as possible as soon as possible. I have nothing against anyone who has gone to college, however I have never judged anyone by their possession of or absence of a degree. And it really has nothing to do with flying an airplane. I have found no correlation between success and failure in our training program based upon degree status. In fact most of our training failures have possessed college degrees. Please no shots at our training program, it speaks for itself.|
----

I agree.

 

[bobbysamd]

Turbo Jet PIC and the degree

When it comes to getting an interview, turbo jet PIC will open more eyes than a college degree . . . . You are wasting four years of quality flight time building opportunity going to college if your career goal is to be a pilot . . . .To spend four years and 50K-100K to graduate with a degree in professional aviation with 500 hours of flight time, in my view, is a waste of time and money.

Here again, to get many jobs that afford the chance to build turbojet PIC, listing the degree improves your chances, if not being required outright. While I like an aviation degree, just having the degree is what matters. You can spend $100K or whatever for the degree and ratings from an aviation college, and you can do it far cheaper.

Once more, why shoot yourself in the foot?

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

Major airlines require a degree, or atleast they say so on their websites when you check minimums. However, regionals and most corporate from what I have seen, do not.

If I were you, I would do whatever necessary to get a degree, whatever it may be in. College degrees speak wonders about a persons ability to learn and adapt to new levels, etc. That is basically what college degrees are for. Unless you are going into a specific field, like medical, etc., degrees are basically nothing more than a tool to show your employer you ability to learn, and continue on to new levels, i.e, high school to college, first officer to captain, or whatever field you may work in. After all, when flying an airplane, what circumstance would require you to know who the king of France was 1000 years ago.

 

[bobbysamd]

Once again, get the @#$@! degree!

Major airlines require a degree, or atleast they say so on their websites when you check minimums. However, regionals and most corporate from what I have seen, do not.

If I were you, I would do whatever necessary to get a degree, whatever it may be in. College degrees speak wonders about a persons ability to learn and adapt to new levels, etc. That is basically what college degrees are for. Unless you are going into a specific field, like medical, etc.,degrees are basically nothing more than a tool to show your employer you ability to learn, and continue on to new levels, i.e, high school to college, first officer to captain, or whatever field you may work in. After all, when flying an airplane, what circumstance would require you to know who the king of France was 1000 years ago.

(emphasis added)

At least, you would have something else to talk about besides flying after you reach cruise!

While I feel that a college education signifies far more than only your ability to learn, this post sets forth the practicality of the matter. The degree can open doors and knock down barriers that would otherwise bar you. That is the long and short of this entire discussion.

 

[njcapt]

I'm a 21st year senior, myself - taking an ERAU class every couple of semesters. Lacking a degree has definitely hindered my advancement in the airline industry, even though I'm convinced it has no practical benefit to being a pilot. However, with literally thousands of applications on file at the few airlines hiring these days, the degree is an easy screening tool.

If I hadn't left Vanguard when I did (avoiding the tragic end), I doubt I would have had a chance with ATA. I'd probably be working for another commuter or national airline, commuting and miserable - with no realistic chance for a decent major airline job in the next several years.

If you have the chance, get the degree then bitch about needing it for the job you just got.

 

[Krusty]

Hugh, what did you have to put up with that you had to overcome, I am just curious of your avenues to have come to get on with Aloha?? just a question. Thanks dude!

 

[pilotyip]

Squirrel Dog come on?

PilotYip,
Did you mention SWA or AWA the only 2 majors hiring right now? NO! that's because with the 5,500 apps on file at SWA , if you have no degree you have no interview=job. And thats great if your company doesn't require a degree, its not a major airline and you can get a job at Wal-Mart without a degree too, but that doesn't mean I want to work there.

We don't count JB as a potential major? Are they not hiring? They could care less about a college degree, (see other thread) but we don't list that because it would polically incorrect on this MUST HAVE A COLLEGE DEGREE FIRST, BEFORE STARTING FLYING CAREER ONLY WAY TO SUCCEED board. As stated many times before I have nothing against a college degree, but I feel it is a waste of time to spend 4 years in a classroom when you should be flying if that is your career goal. Do it on-line save money, build hours, get TJ PIC and go to the front of the hiring line in 2007

BTW a 125K year job flying cargo in DC-9's, with 13 days off per month can not be compared to working at Walmart. All this aside I loved your closing about the queer eye.

 

[pilotyip]

For English

Somehow my post above was misinterpreted by pilotyip as being a "pro-non-degree" post. I am very much pro-degree. However, the original poster asked how far one could go up the ladder without the degree. I gave as factual an answer as I could muster. However, just because some people without degrees have been hired at airlines with a "degree preferred" requirement doesn't mean that all candidates in this category will be hired.

Sorry pilotyip, we still disagree.

I am not-pro-non-degree, if you read my threads, I have nothing against people with college degrees, everyone in my family has a couple. We interview people with college degrees the same as non-degrees. I have shifted my stance to include; "yes a college degree may open doors for you in the future", so that is semi pro degree. Most here seem to agree the major on the degree has no bearing on being eligible for the “Major Interview”. But the college degree has no bearing on entry-level jobs, get the entry-level job, build time, do your degree on-line. I am also getting support in the "It has nothing to do with flying an airplane area.” most people agree, you can be a highly skilled pilot without a degree. Our major difference is timing; you and your ilk say the only way to be a success is to go to a four-year on-campus program, spend 50K to 100K for 350 hours of piston time. The approach I support is doing it on-line and off campus while building hours. In fact I know my option counts for very little and I am semi-management, ex-union member from defunct airlines, now working at a looser bottom feeder in the non-sked business, so why should anyone take my advice seriously. But I am more impressed when I interview a pilot applicant who while flying and building time is doing his degree on-line and off campus, there is a real work ethic. And when this guy finishes his degree in 2007 at age 27 and has 4000 TT, 3000 MEL Turbin and 1,000 hrs Part 121 TJ PIC, he will have head of the line privileges over the 2004 college grad when the hiring starts big time again in 2007.

 

[English]

Re: For English

Our major difference is timing; you and your ilk say the only way to be a success is to go to a four-year on-campus program, spend 50K to 100K for 350 hours of piston time. The approach I support is doing it on-line and off campus while building hours.

Hmmm, me and my ilk? Not sure what that means, but here's the facts-

I did a traditional four-year degree at USC right out of high school and a degree on-line through Embry-Riddle when I was 30. I did my flight training with a local CFI and built my flight time as a CFI at the local FBO, flying my own airplane, instructing, doing Angel Flight missions, Young Eagles flights, and lots of cross countrys. Oh yeah, and I was holding down a full time job while doing all of this ( both degrees and all flight training). So, if I were advocating the route you described above, don't you think I would have taken that route myself?

I don't really know where you got your impression that I am of some "ilk". I believe that not having a four year degree will hold a majority of pilots back from attaining their goals. Period.

 

[bobbysamd]

Getting the degree

The approach I support is doing it on-line and off campus while building hours . . . . . I am more impressed when I interview a pilot applicant who while flying and building time is doing his degree on-line and off campus, there is a real work ethic. And when this guy finishes his degree in 2007 at age 27 and has 4000 TT, 3000 MEL Turbin and 1,000 hrs Part 121 TJ PIC, he will have head of the line privileges over the 2004 college grad when the hiring starts big time again in 2007.

I don't disagree. I still would submit you need the degree to "open doors" (and for education's sake alone) to jobs in which you can build these hours. Hiring per your projection won't pick up again big time until 2007, implying that it will be slow until then. Getting the jobs to build those great totals would therefore still be tough. Accordingly, this current 24-year-old needs every advantage possible to get those jobs, e.g., the degree. And, there is no guarantee that his actual path will conform to Yip's blueprint.

I disagree slightly with the distance learning approach, but maybe that's why Yip would be impressed with the applicant he described. I submit that most people won't finish college once they start. I feel it's better just to knock out college and concentrate on flying, without college hanging over your head, but that's just me. I know of people, even professional athletes, who put their minds to it and finish in three years by going to summer school.

Education aside, the big thing about the degree for pilots is it can open doors and/or assure other doors won't be slammed in your face.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Degree overplayed

I don't dispute the value of a degree. However, the value is not because a degree offers tangible "nutritional" value, but rather that is the way the game is played in today's US society. It is requested/required to get your foot in the door or to make you competitive. You hear going to college makes a person more rounded, expands their horizons, gets a person to do things they wouldn't normally do. While true, is it worth the cost and time/energy? My skeptic side says it actually delays your entry into the job market while keeping liberal professors gainfully employed. The majority of my peers are college degreed. While they were able to obtain a degree, did it make them a better person? In my job I get to be around all kinds of companies, especially Fortune 500 companies. What is sorely lacking are people of character and integrity.
There are a lot of jobs out there that require a college degree. However, think that is the "hip" thing for companies to want. In reality the occupation does not need a degreed person.
My daughter just visited UF the other day. They went on and on about how smart you had to be to get in. Said you have to have a SAT and/or ACT this high and do this well on your grades in HS, etc. I thought this is a line there are too many "normal" kids going here. UCF in Orlando feeds the kids the same line. Kind of reminds me of certain airlines saying we only hire the bestest (sic) pilots to fly for us .
Guess my Bachelor's and Master's degrees didn't enlighten me enough to see the value!

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Hugh, what did you have to put up with that you had to overcome, I am just curious of your avenues to have come to get on with Aloha?? just a question. Thanks dude!

I'll try to keep this short.
I was quite the underachiever in High School without a lot of options come graduation time (which I barely pulled off). Flying as a crew dog in the Navy sounded like a lot of fun and a good way to get back to the waves in Hawaii. It was both. I did that for a while...over ten years, actually. Early on, I was a bigtime liberty risk (imagine a 19 y/o sailor running the streets of Olongapo) and found that my COs were often interested in how I looked in dress whites standing at attention in their office....that kinda stuff didn't help much either.

Despite all that, I loved my job and did well enough at it that the powers that be saw potential and I was able to get a recommendation for a couple of college programs, and one that led to a commission. Once I was in that college program leading to a commission, I was in competition with every academy dork and ROTC puke out there for a pilot slot...AT AGE 28! The odds didn't look too good for me. Well, the sun shined on a dogs a$$ that day in 1992 and I pulled off a pilot slot. I actually didn't get my wings until I was 31 years old.

I was lucky enough to get the aircraft I wanted, at the location I wanted. I sacrificed location for quality of flying for my last tour and retired at 38 with 4 successful job interviews behind me and a few options. So now I'm 39 at a national that fits my lifestyle perfectly and am happy as a pig in $hit. Doesn't sound like I had a ton to overcome, but when you look at it, I sure didn't help myself much in my early days at all. I mean, I didn't even touch the stick of an airplane other than just fooling around until I was 29!

My point is this. My situation worked out perfectly for me. However, there is no way I would look at a kid in Junior High School who says he wants to be a pilot and tell him; "just screw off and chase girls in high school, then enlist in the navy and go chase girls all over the world, then they'll give you a pilot slot and you'll be at an airline before you know it" That would be irresponsible advice. I ended up where I am today through a lot of luck and hard work and a lot of luck (and some good fortune, I might add).

The more I listen to PilotYIP and his point of view, the more I agree. I flew with a guy the other day who is 43 and has been at this company for 20 years now. How do you suppose HIS retirement check is gonna look? Sure that's an exception, but then again, so am I. However, I don't discount the traditional going off to college for four years...it's not gonna hurt anyone. But beware, if you do it YIPs' way, you have to work your ass off and GET THAT DEGREE, you aren't going to get to the majors without it.

Guess I didn't do a very good job of keeping it short...

 

[av8tortype]

I'll try to keep this short.
I was quite the underachiever in High School, ..... snip snip .... I was a bigtime liberty risk (imagine a 19 y/o sailor running the streets of Olongapo) and found that my COs were often interested in how I looked in dress whites standing at attention in their office.... snip snip

Captain's mast for SN1 Jorgan? Anyway, you managed to do very well for yourself and I agree with your comments. Carry out the plan of the day.

 

[Caveman]

I dropped out of high school after the 10th grade and enlisted in the Marine Corps. My dreams of being a fighter pilot were essentially gone at that point. Fast forward 17 years and I decided to learn to fly just for the fun of it. I discovered through my instructor that you can be a professional pilot without first being a military pilot. Two years later I retired and took the plunge towards being a working pilot. Six years later I'm a Captain at a decent national. Even though things have gone well so far I'm probably up against a glass ceiling because I don't have a four year degree. Somewhere along the way I was able to duct tape together a 2 year degree. I believe I was hired where I'm at now because my military career counted for just enough to offset my lack of a 4 year degree. I also think that I've ridden that horse as far as it will go. If want to move on to JB, SWA, AT or ATA I had better figure out a way to get the four year degree.

I agree with Pilotyip's career track and if I had it to do all over again, barring the opportunity to be a military pilot, I would follow his advice. I also consider the degree essential to get hired at a major. It can be done without it but like Hugh said why create a hurdle that must be overcome.

I think one reason a degree has been a de facto requirement is that until the last decade or so most major airline pilots came from the military and since the mid 50's the vast majority of military pilots have been officers. Most commissioned officers have at least a BS/BA and therefore most airline pilots had a degree by happenstance rather than by design of the industry. Because of this you now have to have a degree to be on par with most of the other applicants.

GET THE DEGREE.

 

[LittleDeuce]

Go for it

Caveman;

The good news is there are far more options out there for you to finish your degree.

It took me 10 years to complete my BS and 7 more for my Masters.


Go for it. You will be glad you did.

Semper Fi

 

[ILStoMinimums]

Re: Go for it

Caveman;

The good news is there are far more options out there for you to finish your degree.

It took me 10 years to complete my BS and 7 more for my Masters.


Go for it. You will be glad you did.

Semper Fi

Does the Masters put you ahead of the game? Or are they just looking for BA and then they check off the degree part?

 

[LittleDeuce]

Masters

I suppose it does not matter too much. The BS is the hole puncher.

I don't see how it can hurt. Most people including me, do it for personal satisfaction.

 

[bobbysamd]

Masters

Does the Masters put you ahead of the game? Or are they just looking for BA and then they check off the degree part?

I second the above. All you really need is a Bachelors. A Masters isn't necessarily icing on the cake and won't necessarily put you ahead of the crowd, but there's no harm in getting it.

If you're so inclined, why not? Good luck with your thesis.

 

[pilotyip]

tale of airline stupidy

A pilot was interviewed by AA, he brings a Virgin copy of his BA transcript as per the application process. He puts on his application he has a masters. He has a personal copy of his master's transcript, but not virgin copy addressed to AA. He is not hired because he did not proberly complete the application process. The point being if he had not put his master's on the application he may have had a job at AA, only to become unemployed the next year, so maybe things worked out for the best. Advice leave it off, it REALLY has nothing to do with flying an airplane.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Re: tale of airline stupidy

Advice leave it off, it REALLY has nothing to do with flying an airplane.

Leave it off? Leave it off? Yeah, go ahead and judge for yourself what really does and doesn't have to do with flying an airplane and omit significant achievements or failures off of your application based on what REALLY has something to do with flying an airplane. Sure, a Master's has little to do with flying an airplane, but it has an awful lot to do with reflecting something about the person who went out and earned the thing. I have to disagree with the logic process displayed in that post. C'mon. If you have a master's, put it down and follow the directions. Being able to follow directions has a hell of a lot to do with flying a plane.

 

[banned username 2]

Re: tale of airline stupidy

A pilot was interviewed by AA, he brings a Virgin copy of his BA transcript as per the application process. He puts on his application he has a masters. He has a personal copy of his master's transcript, but not virgin copy addressed to AA. He is not hired because he did not proberly complete the application process. The point being if he had not put his master's on the application he may have had a job at AA, only to become unemployed the next year, so maybe things worked out for the best. Advice leave it off, it REALLY has nothing to do with flying an airplane.

This is perhaps the most idiotic thing I have read regarding this topic yet...

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Now more than ever I feel both my degrees were a complete waste, they had nothing to do with any job I got.........

in fact, they were a hindrance as I could have been building those flight hours instead....

Thats it, from now on I am leaving them off my resume so I can be competitive with the REAL pilots...






HOLY $HIT.

 

[FN FAL]

I second the above. All you really need is a Bachelors. A Masters isn't necessarily icing on the cake and won't necessarily put you ahead of the crowd, but there's no harm in getting it.

If you're so inclined, why not? Good luck with your thesis.

I split a cargo run with a retired navy P-3 pilot. He has three masters, two bachelors degrees and a ton of P-3 aircraft commander time. It's really funny to hear the ramp agents tell me about the time he landed at the out-base with all four cargo pod doors hanging open after a 2 hour flight out the hub. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[bobbysamd]

A tale of application stupidity, not airline stupidity

A pilot was interviewed by AA, he brings a Virgin copy of his BA transcript as per the application process. He puts on his application he has a masters. He has a personal copy of his master's transcript, but not virgin copy addressed to AA. He is not hired because he did not proberly complete the application process. The point being if he had not put his master's on the application he may have had a job at AA, only to become unemployed the next year, so maybe things worked out for the best.

That is flawed logic. Not only is the application process a way to screen for qualified applicants, it is a another form of exam. In this case, he was being tested on his ability to follow directions. Following directions is very much related to ability to fly an airplane.
The particular part of the "exam" being anal and chicken$hit aside, the applicant failed it because he did not bring the proper transcript to the interview per the application process. In other words, RTFP.

Whether the Masters on top of your Bachelor's gives you a leg up on the folks with only Bachelor's is questionable. But, yes, if you have it, you absolutely should list it, for all reasons cited above.

 

[LJDRVR]

I'm going to have to agree with Caveman here. I think everyone understands that the degree has nothing to do with flying ability or how well a potential employee will perform. I believe the majors cheat themselves out of many highly qualified pilots by not bringing in everybody and focusing on doing the legwork required to find out who the real "superstars" are.

It's their ball-game however and what the debate comes down to is this: Regardless of how clever, motivated and smart an individual is, a non-degreed pilot stands a much lower chance of being invited to the interview than their peers. Can it be done without the degree? Of course. What are the chances? Slim. For years I believed that I was one of the 2% that would succeed in reaching the majors without a degree. (I still may!) But the simple truth is this: no interview invites yet. So I've enrolled in an on-line program and should complete a BS by 2005. I'm also taking a huge pay cut to go fly for a National Airline. (Read that regional.) Much like my attitude with the degree, I always believed I could do it without the 121 box being checked. (I still may!) But you know something? Why not?! I've got plenty of turbine PIC, so getting a little 121 time will only make me that much more competetive. Yeah the pay sucks, but who cares? Money isn't everything.

As someone stated, a degree is just a piece of paper. I can hold my own in an interview situation with ANYBODY out there. I bring a lot to the table, have an excellent history and impeccable flying skills, none of which mean ANYTHING if I don't get the invite. So whoever originally posted, take the advice of someone who decided on life experience over the degree: Get the piece of paper. You may not need it, but why take the chance? I will say this: Don't hold up your flying career to attend some university. Work on both concurrently.

 

[pilotyip]

Welcome back

Had not heard from DA capt and GS200 on this subject for a while, good to see you two are still alive and kicking. I am getting some support for the maybe a degree first is not best thing to do. Althought there appears to be agreement that the discipline required to do so may be beyond the reach of some. Congrats to those who had the will power and motivation to do both school and build time at the same time. You are truely above average. So with BS/BA cleared up, we could for for how stupid airlines are in their search for the perfectly degreed pilot. They passed up a super guy who can fly, and as said before did him a favor.