NJASAP urges Flexjet, Flight Options to #VoteUnion

[NJASAPPresident]

Unionization in professional aviation is vital for numerous reasons, the most important of which is this: You take control of your career. Pilots spend tens of thousands of dollars preparing for a career in professional aviation, and this kind of investment demands insurance. You could think about it like this: A collective bargaining agreement is to an aviation career what a warranty is to a new car. You don?t necessarily expect anything to go wrong as you drive off the lot, but if it does, then you have coverage.

For longtime union members, it is unnecessary for me to extol the many benefits of having access to a professional labor advocate and the security it provides. However, for those who have never been a union member or who have had a bad experience, you are understandably skeptical. Some have suggested a union does more harm than good, damages the employer-employee relationship, and does not give a management team time to make good on its promises. I would like to take a moment today to quickly address each of these considerations.

1) Unions do more harm than good. It is easy to dismiss a union as a meddling nuisance, and this is exactly what management teams count on ? especially during representation elections. Making this conclusion, plainly stated, undermines your career and the profession. Aviation is the most highly unionized profession in the world for a reason: Labor advocates, and pilot representatives in particular, are all that stand between aviation professionals and management teams who will, more often than not, choose profits over people. This is a sad fact of the world in which we live. Profit margins are the preeminent consideration, not the people whose work creates them.

A union, however, stands up for pilots by demanding adherence to an established, agreed upon set of work rules as well as ensuring they have an advocate when they make safety-sensitive decisions that may impact the operational schedule. Unions ensure pilots receive consistent recognition for the professional services they provide. Most importantly, when pilots work together through a union, they not only increase their bargaining power with respect to pay and benefits, but also work to raise standards across our profession.

2) Unions damage the employer-employee relationship. Having a good relationship with the management of a successful company and being represented by a union are not mutually exclusive. Unions make good relationships better and are absolutely essential when the labor-management relationship temporarily sours. The recent history at NetJets demonstrates how critical a union becomes in that scenario.

Our former CEO abandoned an incredibly productive labor-management partnership, choosing instead to engage our group in one of the most contentious labor battles in recent history. His attack on our pay, benefits and working conditions was unprecedented. Without the protections offered by a strong union, the NetJets pilot group would have been subject to the whims of a CEO who made no secret of his contempt for both pilots and labor organizations. Absent the protection of a strong union and our collective bargaining agreement, there is no doubt we would have seen significant reductions in our pay, healthcare and retirement benefits. Absent a labor contract and a strong union to enforce it, that could happen to any pilot, anywhere, at any time. Do not let it happen to you.

3) Unions do not give management time to make good on its promises. I cannot tell you whether OneSky management will make good on its promises if the Flexjet and Flight Options pilots reject the Union. My question is this: Are you willing to take the gamble? Are you willing to bet your career and your family?s financial security on management?s word? Again, I do not know whether they will keep their promises. I only know the history of our industry shows that nine times out of 10, they will not. You could be the exception, but, more than likely, you will not be. However, if their promises are genuine, management will have no problem incorporating them into a collective bargaining agreement.

Voting to form a union should not be viewed as a vote against management. To that end, giving management a chance and choosing union representation are not exclusive. Quite the contrary, a union merely gives management the opportunity to put its promises in writing via collective bargaining agreement. A written contract defines important terms that have a material impact on you and your finances ? not unlike an agreement signed when purchasing a home or car. There is no reason the work environment should be any different.

It should be pointed out a union does not impede management from treating its employees well and a contract does not necessarily mean the relationship between the parties will be bad. The decision to form a union is business. It?s not personal. Management has legions of executives, lawyers, consultant and advisors working to protect and defend their business interests. And this begs the question: Why should you be any different wen it comes to something as important as your job?​

Voting to organize under the Teamster banner is one of the best decisions you can make in your professional aviation career. With the impending merger and all the uncertainty and changes that brings, you need something upon which you can rely. A union is that cornerstone ? that foundation on which you and your peers can build something important and solid in the years to come. That?s because the union is you and your fellow pilots working together to protect your interests as professional pilots rather than relying on management to protect you when they are clearly focused on protecting their own interests.

A vote for the union is a vote for taking control of your career. Do you really want to give that control to someone else?

 

[208starcheck]

Please VOTE!
Join twitter to help Flex and Flops.

 

[CA1900]

Having worked for both union and non-union carriers, there's truly no comparison. A union isn't a panacea, but it's far, far better than the alternative. After seeing it from both sides, I won't go back to a non-union job in aviation.

At my previous (non-union at the time) carrier, the company furloughed, and many crew bases were shrunk. Pilots were, in some cases, kicked out of their bases while pilots junior to them were able to stay, because they were married to people who worked in the office! Health care contributions went from $0 to a substantial portion of our paychecks on very short notice, and of course with no pilot input. I had friends at other non-union carriers who were furloughed not by seniority, but because they happened to be flying equipment that the company wanted to park.

Finally, I'll say this: Even if you trust your management now, your company can be sold, and management can change. Without a union, I shudder to think what would be left of my job when David Sokol and Jordan Hansell took over Netjets. A written contract was the only thing that stopped them.

 

[gutshotdraw]

A written contract was the only thing that stopped them.

Barely....

 

[CA1900]

Barely....

Indeed. But after seeing what they did with our non-union coworkers (including sacking so many of them on the spot), I'm glad I had something to tie their hands at least somewhat.

 

[warlord19]

Quite a few postings to my last post, so I’ll make a little statement and then respond to several of them.

First, I’m not RH, never have been, don’t look like him, etc. I realize your need to focus your hatred, vitriol, and bile on him or someone else in management, but I’m not him…just a simple line-pilot at Flex/DAC for many years that is fed up with your tactics and behavior. I would encourage your lawsuits and “outings” to prove you are liars.

I’ve seen from the beginning how the IBT has tried to infiltrate this company, and it’s disgusting. It uses character assasination, demonization, and the Big Lie as its main weapons against management. It uses faux-respect schemes @VUH and pretty sophisticated psychological tricks (i.e. hot buttons) to manipulate members to do it’s bidding. And it, apparently, works…there’s quite a few of you wanna-be’s, possibly a majority.

The character assasination started with Deanna W, one of our best and well-liked presidents, and hasn’t stopped since. You’ve made prediction after prediction on THIS BOARD about broke airplanes, work-rules violations, rolling rest, etc, etc NONE OF WHICH HAS COME TRUE since we were bought. The ONLY conclusion I come to is this…you LIED ABOUT THESE THINGS, AND YOU’LL LIE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE IN ORDER TO TAKE CONTROL OF THIS COMPANY.

Architect-Why do you post here? if you come on here just to make observations or ponder your navel hair, there are probably better places to post than this.

GC-I’m not trying to silence you Dude….Post on. BTW, was DAC paying you a salary while you”were lining their pockets?” My career has been/continues to be with Flex/DAC, so don’t tell me how I should feel about the IBT.

CA1900-have you ever worked for an IBT-backed carrier? The IBT is unscrupolous, unethical in their business, and corrupt. They’ve been mob-affilliated since Bobby Kennedy went after the first Jimmy Hoffa in the 60’s. They’ve just been recommended to be put back under FEDERAL-SUPERVISION AGAIN. And there’s quite a few bulbs here that gladly GIVE them their dues.

These are my feelings I’ve developed over the past 2 years working under DAC. I’m betting the remainder of my career on the company, NOT the IBT. The IBT declared war
2 years ago, and I’ve chosen to do my share of the fight on this board. I’ll work for partnering with NJ or any other HONEST union, but NOT the IBT.
VOTE NO.
WL

 

[gunfyter]

No rolling rest at Union Carriers!

FAA - On Call Pilots Are On Duty
http://m.aviationweek.com/bca/faa-call-pilots-are-duty

FAA: On-Call Pilots Are on Duty
Business & Commercial Aviation
By Kent S. Jackson
Nov 27, 2015
The cold beer test can show whether an operator has a "prospective rest" policy
FAA: On Call = On Duty

The FAA has once again issued a legal interpretation explaining that an ?on call? pilot can?t count as rest all of the time that a call never came. The agency has been restating this principle periodically for years, and each time, many in the FAR Part 135 on-demand charter world angrily reply that this policy cannot function in the real world. Their position: If a pilot hasn?t flown or worked in any way for a week, why can?t that same, well-rested pilot fly on 2-hr. notice?


...............

Where's my buddy Yip?

 

[fischman]

Quite a few postings to my last post, so I?ll make a little statement and then respond to several of them.

First, I?m not RH, never have been, don?t look like him, etc. I realize your need to focus your hatred, vitriol, and bile on him or someone else in management, but I?m not him?just a simple line-pilot at Flex/DAC for many years that is fed up with your tactics and behavior. I would encourage your lawsuits and ?outings? to prove you are liars.

I?ve seen from the beginning how the IBT has tried to infiltrate this company, and it?s disgusting. It uses character assasination, demonization, and the Big Lie as its main weapons against management. It uses faux-respect schemes @VUH and pretty sophisticated psychological tricks (i.e. hot buttons) to manipulate members to do it?s bidding. And it, apparently, works?there?s quite a few of you wanna-be?s, possibly a majority.

The character assasination started with Deanna W, one of our best and well-liked presidents, and hasn?t stopped since. You?ve made prediction after prediction on THIS BOARD about broke airplanes, work-rules violations, rolling rest, etc, etc NONE OF WHICH HAS COME TRUE since we were bought. The ONLY conclusion I come to is this?you LIED ABOUT THESE THINGS, AND YOU?LL LIE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE IN ORDER TO TAKE CONTROL OF THIS COMPANY.

Architect-Why do you post here? if you come on here just to make observations or ponder your navel hair, there are probably better places to post than this.

GC-I?m not trying to silence you Dude?.Post on. BTW, was DAC paying you a salary while you?were lining their pockets?? My career has been/continues to be with Flex/DAC, so don?t tell me how I should feel about the IBT.

CA1900-have you ever worked for an IBT-backed carrier? The IBT is unscrupolous, unethical in their business, and corrupt. They?ve been mob-affilliated since Bobby Kennedy went after the first Jimmy Hoffa in the 60?s. They?ve just been recommended to be put back under FEDERAL-SUPERVISION AGAIN. And there?s quite a few bulbs here that gladly GIVE them their dues.

These are my feelings I?ve developed over the past 2 years working under DAC. I?m betting the remainder of my career on the company, NOT the IBT. The IBT declared war
2 years ago, and I?ve chosen to do my share of the fight on this board. I?ll work for partnering with NJ or any other HONEST union, but NOT the IBT.
VOTE NO.
WL

I've worked for an IBT represented carrier.

The IBT does very little as far as the local representation is concerned. That is taken care of your locally elected leadership and volunteers so your fears of thuggery are unfounded. That is, unless you work with thugs.

The reason NJASAP voted out IBT was because 25% of the dues went to IBT national and we became big enough to pay for our own representation and basically outgrew IBT. We didn't need them anymore.

Here's some of the REAL positives about being in a union.

1) You WILL make more money. It may take time, but you will. When I started at my present company, I made about $28,000. By the end of this year I will be at about $200,000. I assure you, the company didn't pay the difference out of the goodness of their hearts. It's because of the union. When Flex got a raise in 2005 and 2007, it was because of MY union.

2) Representation. You have a bad day and do something stupid that could get you violated or fired. The only people who will truly have your back are the ones you are paying, your union brothers. The company will send you down the river to protect themselves no matter what. The union will represent you, file grievances for you, prepare for arbitrations, etc... I can't tell you how many times I've called a union steward just to vent because I felt I was being pushed. Sometimes taking your frustrations out on someone who isn't going to discipline you is all you need.

3) Safety. "GET IN THAT AIRPLANE AND GO OR YOU'RE FIRED." I don't think so, Scooter. Being in a union I am totally comfortable telling a passenger, chief pilot, FAA, or anyone "This isn't a safe situation. We are going to wait until conditions change and I am confident we can proceed safely."

 

[Crobar]

Great post Fischman!

 

[Willy21]

By nature pilots have a desire to go along to get along. This was how it was for my first 4 years at NetJets. When the economy went south in 2009 RTS and the union came up with a plan to cut back and save jobs. The vast majority of pilots participated in one or more of the voluntary measures. That all changed for the worse in the summer of 2009. D.S. came in and blew up the Labor Management Relationship Program. It wasn't the 1108 or NJASAP that pushed the company to the brink, it was management.

In the end the O.P. says it best. This isn't a personal decision, it is a business decision. Choose what is best for your future.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

WL "GC-I’m not trying to silence you Dude….Post on. BTW, was DAC paying you a salary while you”were lining their pockets?” My career has been/continues to be with Flex/DAC, so don’t tell me how I should feel about the IBT.

But it's ok for you to tell me and others who have not been treated the best, how we should feel about Local 1108? They are my fellow pilots working together for all of our benefit-including your WL.

 

[CA1900]

CA1900-have you ever worked for an IBT-backed carrier?

Yes, I work for Netjets, and our pilot group was affiliated with IBT for decades before we went independent seven years ago. I won't restate what Fischman posted because his posting is spot-on about why we went independent.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Go Union!!

 

[warlord19]

It’s getting late and been up a while but here’s a few comments for the various posts:

Many comments were made about the 2002 broken promises….that was 13 years ago….are you telling me that someone, anyone, would continue working for a company that corrupt for 13 years(today)….I dunno, maybe some of you would. I do know I only hear one side of the story from proven liars with a big agenda to fill, so your “stories” don’t hold much water for me.

“So you actually support having a union?” I’ve said on this board several times I’m not anti-union, just ANTI-IBT, and that there are companies that need unions, especially in past times. That point seems to go over your heads. Nowadays unions are rejected by all kinds of workers because workers have figured out how corrupt and inefficient most unions are. Japanese and European unions work with management and produce superior products. Would you rather drive a Chevy Impala or BMW…their about the same price. All I’m saying is the IBT is a poisonous, management-hating entity that will do and say anything to get a foot in the door. I see and hear this every day. They have torn my company apart (please save your platitudes for someone else) and encourage this “give it to the man” attitude that will cause the company to falter and eventually fail if they are voted in. It’s not surprising the NJ folks want them in our company…it would give their faltering operation a huge boost to tell potential clients the competition voted in the IBT.

And finally, the stupidest thing I’ve seen posted her yet…”this isn’t personal”. You’re right… it’s way beyond personal. Calling management stupid, ignorant, Hitler etc is way beyond personal.

If FO/FLEX pilots would like to gain some semblance of a culture and start making market wages and reap the benefits from working with management you need to VOTE NO. Management is not the enemy. This culture destroying misguided gang of hooligans is your true enemy. You have an opportunity to throw off their shakles and enjoy the fruits of your labor soon. Vote them in and your insured of years of below par everything and will find yourself in a race to the bottom. It’s your choice. VOTE NO!
WL

 

[fischman]

If FO/FLEX pilots would like to gain some semblance of a culture and start making market wages and reap the benefits from working with management you need to VOTE NO. Management is not the enemy. This culture destroying misguided gang of hooligans is your true enemy. You have an opportunity to throw off their shakles and enjoy the fruits of your labor soon. Vote them in and your insured of years of below par everything and will find yourself in a race to the bottom. It?s your choice. VOTE NO!
WL

That is the exact opposite of correct.

If the union isn't voted in, you are an "at will employee" meaning management can reduce your pay, change your work rules, reduce your benefits, stop 401k contributions AT WILL. At THEIR will.

The only way to protect yourselves from that happening is to vote in a union and secure a CBA.

Again, the only hooligans you would have to deal with are the ones at your local that you vote in. Are you saying your co-workers are "hooligans"?

UNION YES!!!

 

[warlord19]

Quote:
That is the exact opposite of correct.

If the union isn't voted in, you are an "at will employee" meaning management can reduce your pay, change your work rules, reduce your benefits, stop 401k contributions AT WILL. At THEIR will.

The only way to protect yourselves from that happening is to vote in a union and secure a CBA.

Again, the only hooligans you would have to deal with are the ones at your local that you vote in. Are you saying your co-workers are "hooligans"?

UNION YES!!!
End Quote:

fischman-your last post was good, this one not so much.

Are you saying management is the enemy? If that is the case, then yea, you need a union. If, however, that is NOT the case, why give a ?protection racket? like the IBT your hard-earned dues?
Doesn?t make sense. They are corrupt and a bunch of bullies. Just because a bunch of yahoos say and print scurrilous stuff doesn?t make it true. We?ve(Flex) been an ?at will? company for 20 years and are some of the highest paid fractional pilots around. Certainly much more than the IBT unionized FO guys. Our new management is trying to implement a different way of providing lift to rich folks/companies/etc but is dragged down at every chance by the IBT acolytes. A fair-minded approach would be to see if this might work?.if it doesn?t, then the owners/backers lose?the IBT doesn?t have a nickel in the game?they are takers, not givers.

MANAGEMENT IS NOT THE ENEMY. If/when the IBT comes on property, a pallor of customer indifference and a disdain for hard work settles in on the workforce. There are MANY YAMMER POSTS FROM CROSS-OVERS STATING THIS, PLUS YOU CAN SEE AND HEAR ABOUT IT EVERY DAY. NJ WOULD LOVE TO SEE US VOTE IN THE IBT.

The race to the bottom will have begun.

Vote yourselves a chance to succeed in this race.
VOTE NO!
WL

 

[exagony]

Warlord 19,
I'll repost until you answer.

WL,
We are still waiting for the copy of the transcripts that proves that you didn't say " that you thought it would be insulting to the dog if someone sent dog feces through the us mail to the IBT1108 Office". Please provide the transcript to prove you are not lying.

Please provide the names of companies in recent history that the 1108 represented that merged lists via DOH. Names of companies and dates please. You have been spouting off about how the SLI is going to be date of hire because you claim its how the 1108 has always done it. Please back up your claim with the companies and dates, otherwise it will just prove you have no credibility.

 

[fischman]

Quote:
That is the exact opposite of correct.

If the union isn't voted in, you are an "at will employee" meaning management can reduce your pay, change your work rules, reduce your benefits, stop 401k contributions AT WILL. At THEIR will.

The only way to protect yourselves from that happening is to vote in a union and secure a CBA.

Again, the only hooligans you would have to deal with are the ones at your local that you vote in. Are you saying your co-workers are "hooligans"?

UNION YES!!!
End Quote:

fischman-your last post was good, this one not so much.

Are you saying management is the enemy? If that is the case, then yea, you need a union. If, however, that is NOT the case, why give a ?protection racket? like the IBT your hard-earned dues?
Doesn?t make sense. They are corrupt and a bunch of bullies. Just because a bunch of yahoos say and print scurrilous stuff doesn?t make it true. We?ve(Flex) been an ?at will? company for 20 years and are some of the highest paid fractional pilots around. Certainly much more than the IBT unionized FO guys. Our new management is trying to implement a different way of providing lift to rich folks/companies/etc but is dragged down at every chance by the IBT acolytes. A fair-minded approach would be to see if this might work?.if it doesn?t, then the owners/backers lose?the IBT doesn?t have a nickel in the game?they are takers, not givers.

MANAGEMENT IS NOT THE ENEMY. If/when the IBT comes on property, a pallor of customer indifference and a disdain for hard work settles in on the workforce. There are MANY YAMMER POSTS FROM CROSS-OVERS STATING THIS, PLUS YOU CAN SEE AND HEAR ABOUT IT EVERY DAY. NJ WOULD LOVE TO SEE US VOTE IN THE IBT.

The race to the bottom will have begun.

Vote yourselves a chance to succeed in this race.
VOTE NO!
WL

Management is not your friend, unless of course, you are management. I encourage the flex/flops pilots to vote yes.

 

[doh]

"...a pallor of customer indifference and a disdain for hard work settles in on the workforce."

So true! That's why Netjets is four times larger, IOW more successful, than the combined Flex/Options pilot group! Because they have so much "customer indifference and disdain for hard work"...umm...wait...four times more successful than we are!?!? Your logic is wrong, dead wrong! Netjets is more successful, and their pilots are more successful, because there is no negative affect to unionization on pilot work ethic. The only affect of unionization is a greater reward to the pilot for that hard work ethic. Otherwise Netjets would be failing.

 

[Honorstudent]

Exactly doh, WL should educate himself by going to http://www.oneskywatch.com/

 

[Praetorian]

WL sounds desperate.

9 days till he gets canned.

 

[Diesel]

Quite a few postings to my last post, so I?ll make a little statement and then respond to several of them.

First, I?m not RH, never have been, don?t look like him, etc. I realize your need to focus your hatred, vitriol, and bile on him or someone else in management, but I?m not him?just a simple line-pilot at Flex/DAC for many years that is fed up with your tactics and behavior. I would encourage your lawsuits and ?outings? to prove you are liars.

I?ve seen from the beginning how the IBT has tried to infiltrate this company, and it?s disgusting. It uses character assasination, demonization, and the Big Lie as its main weapons against management. It uses faux-respect schemes @VUH and pretty sophisticated psychological tricks (i.e. hot buttons) to manipulate members to do it?s bidding. And it, apparently, works?there?s quite a few of you wanna-be?s, possibly a majority.

The character assasination started with Deanna W, one of our best and well-liked presidents, and hasn?t stopped since. You?ve made prediction after prediction on THIS BOARD about broke airplanes, work-rules violations, rolling rest, etc, etc NONE OF WHICH HAS COME TRUE since we were bought. The ONLY conclusion I come to is this?you LIED ABOUT THESE THINGS, AND YOU?LL LIE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE IN ORDER TO TAKE CONTROL OF THIS COMPANY.

Architect-Why do you post here? if you come on here just to make observations or ponder your navel hair, there are probably better places to post than this.

GC-I?m not trying to silence you Dude?.Post on. BTW, was DAC paying you a salary while you?were lining their pockets?? My career has been/continues to be with Flex/DAC, so don?t tell me how I should feel about the IBT.

CA1900-have you ever worked for an IBT-backed carrier? The IBT is unscrupolous, unethical in their business, and corrupt. They?ve been mob-affilliated since Bobby Kennedy went after the first Jimmy Hoffa in the 60?s. They?ve just been recommended to be put back under FEDERAL-SUPERVISION AGAIN. And there?s quite a few bulbs here that gladly GIVE them their dues.

These are my feelings I?ve developed over the past 2 years working under DAC. I?m betting the remainder of my career on the company, NOT the IBT. The IBT declared war
2 years ago, and I?ve chosen to do my share of the fight on this board. I?ll work for partnering with NJ or any other HONEST union, but NOT the IBT.
VOTE NO.
WL

This shill needs to watch Hoffa a few more times since that's the only union comparison he can make.

Make no bones about it he's looking out for himself first and a union coming in stops whatever deal he's got going on.

He will scream and yell about how he will leave yada yada but as soon as a union is in place he won't do a thing.

It really is funny to watch and so predictable.

 

[warlord19]

Probably everyone on this board has visited the VUH by now. It’s a Teamster’s funded and built site. In it, everyone calls each other Sir and Captain and Mister….it’s a swell place for the MASTER MANIPULATORS of the IBT to give all the visitors there feelings of respect, importance, and togetherness. They are very good at this. Sooner or later, however, the smarter ones figure out how manipulated they have been and make changes. The slower ones need more time or, never get it. And you better NOT disagree with them on anything they proclaim or you’ll have to “prove your position” which MEANS you’ll be shouted down or worse….meanwhile they call management and NO VOTERS names I wouldn’t call a dog. One FPOC fellow regularly posts letters on Yammer written by various member of the IBT that he treats as if they hold the value of the Ten Commandments, when actually most are OPINIONS from various IBT folks that change as often as the wind…in fact, it usually depends on the direction of the winds. That’s really gonna make for good negotiations should this uncivil POS be voted in.

Respect for me is paying market wages or better + normal benefits our profession needs, giving me the tools to do my job, a few protections and procedures that are contained in the FOM’s, Letter of Employment, etc. and stepping out of the way. I don’t pay a cent for these, especially to a corrupt organization. I really don’t care if you don’t like these opinions, but I have the right and obligation to post them here to give some voice to the IDEA that the IBT is NOT a good organization to join.

The time is growing short to vote. I urge all the fence-sitters and those not sure which way to go to give this management team a chance to prove themselves. Again, they ARE NOT the enemy. The IBT is a corrupt protection racket with severe self-control problems. Even some NJ people are sticking their nose into our fight…they want the IBT voted in because it will weaken us substantially and give them a good selling point ie..the competition is represented by the Mule Drivers. The IBT doesn't want management to have a chance to prove themselves because 1) they want your money as soon as possible and 2) they know their LIES will be exposed. HELP YOURSELF….VOTE NO.
WL

 

[warlord19]

Here’s a scenario that will be playing out in the future. Enjoy!

Prospective DAC Customer: "I love your new planes and all the different options available to me(a typical conservative businessman or wealthy individual) you have to offer. My only concern I have and which my friends with NJ tell me is that your pilots have voted in the IBT to represent them. Jimmy Hoffa Jr. is the head of that operation, correct?

Struggling DAC Salesman: “Well, that’s true, but the Local 1108 is a swell organization that (gulp) is here to help us”.

Customer: 'I’ve heard about some of the labor issues over at FO and their general lack of customer care…do you think that attitude will start pervading the Flex pilots as well?”

Salesman: Oh, of course not. In fact we (gulp) expect the Flex attitude to start influencing the FO pilots and improve some of their work ethic.”…picks up a glass of water to sooth his parched throat).
Some of the worst we just pay to stay at home, but the rest are “starting to come around” (a burp followed by another “gulp”).

Customer: "OK, I think I’m beginning to see. You don’t have the NJ number handy, do you?”

Salesman: "Not right offhand. Even though NJ has their own union now, they were represented for many years by the IBT, so it couldn’t be that bad, right?

Customer: “Yea, I’ve researched that. They say they outgrew them….the truth is they got tired of being ripped off and treated like step-children.”

Salesman: “Oh, your just being silly. Call that dufus, uh, Gasoline,no starter fluid, no, Diesel…that’s it. Kind of a loquacious NJ loud-mouth who posts incessantly but has nothing to say. He can tell you how wonderful the IBT is."
WL

 

[Honorstudent]

WL you are wrong again, the VUH is a Union hall for Flight Options, TMC and Flexjet pilots only, It is sponsored by the 1108 and if comments are not kept respectful they get moderated which is more than you can say for Yammer. On the VUH you may attack the idea but not the person.

 

[realityman]

Well WL, that last post was ummm, "interesting" and so far off the reservation of reality it makes me wonder of qualudes are making a comeback.

You want history? Okay, how about this? RTS fought our union tooth and nail about putting our fatigue policy in the CBA. No way did he want something that could be so limiting (but it hasn't really worked out like that). After we won and had it incorporated into our CBA, HE MADE IT A SELLING POINT TO OUR CLIENTS!

"Hey Mr. Moneybags, we are so concerned about putting safety first that we have agreed to a clause in our CBA with the pilots that allows them to call fatigued, no questions asked, whenever they need to. Sure, it could possibly inconvenience you at some point, but wouldn't you agree it's better to be a little delayed than have a pilot up front who knows he's too tired to safely operate your aircraft? It's an extra layer of protection for YOU!".

If your management team can't figure out how to make hay out of a good union CBA, that's their problem, not the union's. If a conversation like you suggest above ever happens your company leaders are dumber than we think.

Also amusing how you like to bring up IBT history, yet continually ignore KR's history. How many times has he promised to bring back the 401K match? How many times has he followed through on his promise? So many more just like that too.

You are desperately trying to paint being unionized under the IBT as a bad thing. NJA is living proof that it's not! You keep trying to color it differently, but the problem is no matter what color crayon you us, it doesn't change the picture: The picture being they were exactly what we needed to get a good start into being unionized and providing necessary protections. As someone who has been here for the entire process I can attest to the truth of the fact that we simply outgrew them. We reached a size and scope where we could be more nimble on our own. Yes, okay, IBT wasn't happy with our decision to leave. So what. That doesn't mean that everything they did for us previously was suddenly tainted.

You guys are too small for an effective in-house union right now. ALPA will take MORE of your dues and provide almost nothing in return. You wouldn't be a pimple on a gnat's ass to them. There aren't any other unions you can join. It's IBT or non-union. Good luck with non-union under KR. I already KNOW how that will work out for you.

As for we at NJA wanting you to go union so we can see your company decline and maybe fail, that's absolutely ridiculous! How, exactly, would that help us in the future? Look at the airlines. When they negotiate they all say "We want what XYZ Airline has!". It drives the bar UP! No, your first contract won't be as good as ours. However, if you even have ONE provision in there that is better than we have, we will have something to strive for to improve our own CBA. Additionally, if your company declines and fails how could we argue to make more? Your company would then be the example our management needs to claim that increasing our compensation would kill our company. Why would we wish for that? We very badly want to see you be successful! I think it'd be awesome if you could get a CBA BETTER than what we have! None of us are hoping you unionize so that it hurts your company. You're being shrill and ridiculous.

As others have said, IBT is a means to an end. Your LOCAL representatives (the ones you elect) and the pilot group, NOT the head muckity-mucks at IBT, will be who determines how effective your union is. When we were IBT it was US who chose the direction and tone of things. We only went to the IBT for support in initiatives WE decided on. Your portrayal of it being otherwise is completely inaccurate.

Good luck FO/Flex pilots! If you vote in the IBT you'll have a hell of a fight ahead of you, but at least you'll be fighting to move in the right direction with some protections!

 

[Diesel]

I love this guy all he can do is keep pointing at Hoffa.

Seriously his posts are great.

Haha please give us more time to prove ourselves more time more time......

Please post more this is great.

 

[fischman]

Well WL, that last post was ummm, "interesting" and so far off the reservation of reality it makes me wonder of qualudes are making a comeback.

You want history? Okay, how about this? RTS fought our union tooth and nail about putting our fatigue policy in the CBA. No way did he want something that could be so limiting (but it hasn't really worked out like that). After we won and had it incorporated into our CBA, HE MADE IT A SELLING POINT TO OUR CLIENTS!

"Hey Mr. Moneybags, we are so concerned about putting safety first that we have agreed to a clause in our CBA with the pilots that allows them to call fatigued, no questions asked, whenever they need to. Sure, it could possibly inconvenience you at some point, but wouldn't you agree it's better to be a little delayed than have a pilot up front who knows he's too tired to safely operate your aircraft? It's an extra layer of protection for YOU!".

If your management team can't figure out how to make hay out of a good union CBA, that's their problem, not the union's. If a conversation like you suggest above ever happens your company leaders are dumber than we think.

Also amusing how you like to bring up IBT history, yet continually ignore KR's history. How many times has he promised to bring back the 401K match? How many times has he followed through on his promise? So many more just like that too.

You are desperately trying to paint being unionized under the IBT as a bad thing. NJA is living proof that it's not! You keep trying to color it differently, but the problem is no matter what color crayon you us, it doesn't change the picture: The picture being they were exactly what we needed to get a good start into being unionized and providing necessary protections. As someone who has been here for the entire process I can attest to the truth of the fact that we simply outgrew them. We reached a size and scope where we could be more nimble on our own. Yes, okay, IBT wasn't happy with our decision to leave. So what. That doesn't mean that everything they did for us previously was suddenly tainted.

You guys are too small for an effective in-house union right now. ALPA will take MORE of your dues and provide almost nothing in return. You wouldn't be a pimple on a gnat's ass to them. There aren't any other unions you can join. It's IBT or non-union. Good luck with non-union under KR. I already KNOW how that will work out for you.

As for we at NJA wanting you to go union so we can see your company decline and maybe fail, that's absolutely ridiculous! How, exactly, would that help us in the future? Look at the airlines. When they negotiate they all say "We want what XYZ Airline has!". It drives the bar UP! No, your first contract won't be as good as ours. However, if you even have ONE provision in there that is better than we have, we will have something to strive for to improve our own CBA. Additionally, if your company declines and fails how could we argue to make more? Your company would then be the example our management needs to claim that increasing our compensation would kill our company. Why would we wish for that? We very badly want to see you be successful! I think it'd be awesome if you could get a CBA BETTER than what we have! None of us are hoping you unionize so that it hurts your company. You're being shrill and ridiculous.

As others have said, IBT is a means to an end. Your LOCAL representatives (the ones you elect) and the pilot group, NOT the head muckity-mucks at IBT, will be who determines how effective your union is. When we were IBT it was US who chose the direction and tone of things. We only went to the IBT for support in initiatives WE decided on. Your portrayal of it being otherwise is completely inaccurate.

Good luck FO/Flex pilots! If you vote in the IBT you'll have a hell of a fight ahead of you, but at least you'll be fighting to move in the right direction with some protections!

I could not have said it better.

Fence sitters, if it isn't clear to you how badly management wants you to vote no, take a look at warlord's last post. It reaks of desperation. The correct choice is clear.

Vote yes.

 

[Semore Butts]

As s former Flex guy I can say

Having a union contract is head and shoulders over not having one.

To all my buddies at Flex, vote yes for the union.

I don't need to do all this back and forth jazz, I was there. A union is not without it's faults, but in my opinion, there is a reason that most all successful airlines have unions.

Good luck!

Semore

 

[warlord19]

For ANY non-voters out there:

Today is it. If you don?t cast your vote today, you can?t complain about the outcome.

Use your head when you do vote. HELP yourselves and your family (if you are FO) by raising all your pay and benefits to our (Flex) level and help begin to re-establish a culture of mutual respect and cooperation that the UNCIVIL IBT and its lackeys have destroyed.

VOTE NO!!!!
WL