NJASAP urges Flexjet, Flight Options to #VoteUnion

[warlord19]

Quote:
That is the exact opposite of correct.

If the union isn't voted in, you are an "at will employee" meaning management can reduce your pay, change your work rules, reduce your benefits, stop 401k contributions AT WILL. At THEIR will.

The only way to protect yourselves from that happening is to vote in a union and secure a CBA.

Again, the only hooligans you would have to deal with are the ones at your local that you vote in. Are you saying your co-workers are "hooligans"?

UNION YES!!!
End Quote:

fischman-your last post was good, this one not so much.

Are you saying management is the enemy? If that is the case, then yea, you need a union. If, however, that is NOT the case, why give a ?protection racket? like the IBT your hard-earned dues?
Doesn?t make sense. They are corrupt and a bunch of bullies. Just because a bunch of yahoos say and print scurrilous stuff doesn?t make it true. We?ve(Flex) been an ?at will? company for 20 years and are some of the highest paid fractional pilots around. Certainly much more than the IBT unionized FO guys. Our new management is trying to implement a different way of providing lift to rich folks/companies/etc but is dragged down at every chance by the IBT acolytes. A fair-minded approach would be to see if this might work?.if it doesn?t, then the owners/backers lose?the IBT doesn?t have a nickel in the game?they are takers, not givers.

MANAGEMENT IS NOT THE ENEMY. If/when the IBT comes on property, a pallor of customer indifference and a disdain for hard work settles in on the workforce. There are MANY YAMMER POSTS FROM CROSS-OVERS STATING THIS, PLUS YOU CAN SEE AND HEAR ABOUT IT EVERY DAY. NJ WOULD LOVE TO SEE US VOTE IN THE IBT.

The race to the bottom will have begun.

Vote yourselves a chance to succeed in this race.
VOTE NO!
WL

 

[exagony]

Warlord 19,
I'll repost until you answer.

WL,
We are still waiting for the copy of the transcripts that proves that you didn't say " that you thought it would be insulting to the dog if someone sent dog feces through the us mail to the IBT1108 Office". Please provide the transcript to prove you are not lying.

Please provide the names of companies in recent history that the 1108 represented that merged lists via DOH. Names of companies and dates please. You have been spouting off about how the SLI is going to be date of hire because you claim its how the 1108 has always done it. Please back up your claim with the companies and dates, otherwise it will just prove you have no credibility.

 

[fischman]

Quote:
That is the exact opposite of correct.

If the union isn't voted in, you are an "at will employee" meaning management can reduce your pay, change your work rules, reduce your benefits, stop 401k contributions AT WILL. At THEIR will.

The only way to protect yourselves from that happening is to vote in a union and secure a CBA.

Again, the only hooligans you would have to deal with are the ones at your local that you vote in. Are you saying your co-workers are "hooligans"?

UNION YES!!!
End Quote:

fischman-your last post was good, this one not so much.

Are you saying management is the enemy? If that is the case, then yea, you need a union. If, however, that is NOT the case, why give a ?protection racket? like the IBT your hard-earned dues?
Doesn?t make sense. They are corrupt and a bunch of bullies. Just because a bunch of yahoos say and print scurrilous stuff doesn?t make it true. We?ve(Flex) been an ?at will? company for 20 years and are some of the highest paid fractional pilots around. Certainly much more than the IBT unionized FO guys. Our new management is trying to implement a different way of providing lift to rich folks/companies/etc but is dragged down at every chance by the IBT acolytes. A fair-minded approach would be to see if this might work?.if it doesn?t, then the owners/backers lose?the IBT doesn?t have a nickel in the game?they are takers, not givers.

MANAGEMENT IS NOT THE ENEMY. If/when the IBT comes on property, a pallor of customer indifference and a disdain for hard work settles in on the workforce. There are MANY YAMMER POSTS FROM CROSS-OVERS STATING THIS, PLUS YOU CAN SEE AND HEAR ABOUT IT EVERY DAY. NJ WOULD LOVE TO SEE US VOTE IN THE IBT.

The race to the bottom will have begun.

Vote yourselves a chance to succeed in this race.
VOTE NO!
WL

Management is not your friend, unless of course, you are management. I encourage the flex/flops pilots to vote yes.

 

[doh]

"...a pallor of customer indifference and a disdain for hard work settles in on the workforce."

So true! That's why Netjets is four times larger, IOW more successful, than the combined Flex/Options pilot group! Because they have so much "customer indifference and disdain for hard work"...umm...wait...four times more successful than we are!?!? Your logic is wrong, dead wrong! Netjets is more successful, and their pilots are more successful, because there is no negative affect to unionization on pilot work ethic. The only affect of unionization is a greater reward to the pilot for that hard work ethic. Otherwise Netjets would be failing.

 

[Honorstudent]

Exactly doh, WL should educate himself by going to http://www.oneskywatch.com/

 

[Praetorian]

WL sounds desperate.

9 days till he gets canned.

 

[Diesel]

Quite a few postings to my last post, so I?ll make a little statement and then respond to several of them.

First, I?m not RH, never have been, don?t look like him, etc. I realize your need to focus your hatred, vitriol, and bile on him or someone else in management, but I?m not him?just a simple line-pilot at Flex/DAC for many years that is fed up with your tactics and behavior. I would encourage your lawsuits and ?outings? to prove you are liars.

I?ve seen from the beginning how the IBT has tried to infiltrate this company, and it?s disgusting. It uses character assasination, demonization, and the Big Lie as its main weapons against management. It uses faux-respect schemes @VUH and pretty sophisticated psychological tricks (i.e. hot buttons) to manipulate members to do it?s bidding. And it, apparently, works?there?s quite a few of you wanna-be?s, possibly a majority.

The character assasination started with Deanna W, one of our best and well-liked presidents, and hasn?t stopped since. You?ve made prediction after prediction on THIS BOARD about broke airplanes, work-rules violations, rolling rest, etc, etc NONE OF WHICH HAS COME TRUE since we were bought. The ONLY conclusion I come to is this?you LIED ABOUT THESE THINGS, AND YOU?LL LIE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE IN ORDER TO TAKE CONTROL OF THIS COMPANY.

Architect-Why do you post here? if you come on here just to make observations or ponder your navel hair, there are probably better places to post than this.

GC-I?m not trying to silence you Dude?.Post on. BTW, was DAC paying you a salary while you?were lining their pockets?? My career has been/continues to be with Flex/DAC, so don?t tell me how I should feel about the IBT.

CA1900-have you ever worked for an IBT-backed carrier? The IBT is unscrupolous, unethical in their business, and corrupt. They?ve been mob-affilliated since Bobby Kennedy went after the first Jimmy Hoffa in the 60?s. They?ve just been recommended to be put back under FEDERAL-SUPERVISION AGAIN. And there?s quite a few bulbs here that gladly GIVE them their dues.

These are my feelings I?ve developed over the past 2 years working under DAC. I?m betting the remainder of my career on the company, NOT the IBT. The IBT declared war
2 years ago, and I?ve chosen to do my share of the fight on this board. I?ll work for partnering with NJ or any other HONEST union, but NOT the IBT.
VOTE NO.
WL

This shill needs to watch Hoffa a few more times since that's the only union comparison he can make.

Make no bones about it he's looking out for himself first and a union coming in stops whatever deal he's got going on.

He will scream and yell about how he will leave yada yada but as soon as a union is in place he won't do a thing.

It really is funny to watch and so predictable.

 

[warlord19]

Probably everyone on this board has visited the VUH by now. It’s a Teamster’s funded and built site. In it, everyone calls each other Sir and Captain and Mister….it’s a swell place for the MASTER MANIPULATORS of the IBT to give all the visitors there feelings of respect, importance, and togetherness. They are very good at this. Sooner or later, however, the smarter ones figure out how manipulated they have been and make changes. The slower ones need more time or, never get it. And you better NOT disagree with them on anything they proclaim or you’ll have to “prove your position” which MEANS you’ll be shouted down or worse….meanwhile they call management and NO VOTERS names I wouldn’t call a dog. One FPOC fellow regularly posts letters on Yammer written by various member of the IBT that he treats as if they hold the value of the Ten Commandments, when actually most are OPINIONS from various IBT folks that change as often as the wind…in fact, it usually depends on the direction of the winds. That’s really gonna make for good negotiations should this uncivil POS be voted in.

Respect for me is paying market wages or better + normal benefits our profession needs, giving me the tools to do my job, a few protections and procedures that are contained in the FOM’s, Letter of Employment, etc. and stepping out of the way. I don’t pay a cent for these, especially to a corrupt organization. I really don’t care if you don’t like these opinions, but I have the right and obligation to post them here to give some voice to the IDEA that the IBT is NOT a good organization to join.

The time is growing short to vote. I urge all the fence-sitters and those not sure which way to go to give this management team a chance to prove themselves. Again, they ARE NOT the enemy. The IBT is a corrupt protection racket with severe self-control problems. Even some NJ people are sticking their nose into our fight…they want the IBT voted in because it will weaken us substantially and give them a good selling point ie..the competition is represented by the Mule Drivers. The IBT doesn't want management to have a chance to prove themselves because 1) they want your money as soon as possible and 2) they know their LIES will be exposed. HELP YOURSELF….VOTE NO.
WL

 

[warlord19]

Here’s a scenario that will be playing out in the future. Enjoy!

Prospective DAC Customer: "I love your new planes and all the different options available to me(a typical conservative businessman or wealthy individual) you have to offer. My only concern I have and which my friends with NJ tell me is that your pilots have voted in the IBT to represent them. Jimmy Hoffa Jr. is the head of that operation, correct?

Struggling DAC Salesman: “Well, that’s true, but the Local 1108 is a swell organization that (gulp) is here to help us”.

Customer: 'I’ve heard about some of the labor issues over at FO and their general lack of customer care…do you think that attitude will start pervading the Flex pilots as well?”

Salesman: Oh, of course not. In fact we (gulp) expect the Flex attitude to start influencing the FO pilots and improve some of their work ethic.”…picks up a glass of water to sooth his parched throat).
Some of the worst we just pay to stay at home, but the rest are “starting to come around” (a burp followed by another “gulp”).

Customer: "OK, I think I’m beginning to see. You don’t have the NJ number handy, do you?”

Salesman: "Not right offhand. Even though NJ has their own union now, they were represented for many years by the IBT, so it couldn’t be that bad, right?

Customer: “Yea, I’ve researched that. They say they outgrew them….the truth is they got tired of being ripped off and treated like step-children.”

Salesman: “Oh, your just being silly. Call that dufus, uh, Gasoline,no starter fluid, no, Diesel…that’s it. Kind of a loquacious NJ loud-mouth who posts incessantly but has nothing to say. He can tell you how wonderful the IBT is."
WL

 

[Honorstudent]

WL you are wrong again, the VUH is a Union hall for Flight Options, TMC and Flexjet pilots only, It is sponsored by the 1108 and if comments are not kept respectful they get moderated which is more than you can say for Yammer. On the VUH you may attack the idea but not the person.

 

[realityman]

Well WL, that last post was ummm, "interesting" and so far off the reservation of reality it makes me wonder of qualudes are making a comeback.

You want history? Okay, how about this? RTS fought our union tooth and nail about putting our fatigue policy in the CBA. No way did he want something that could be so limiting (but it hasn't really worked out like that). After we won and had it incorporated into our CBA, HE MADE IT A SELLING POINT TO OUR CLIENTS!

"Hey Mr. Moneybags, we are so concerned about putting safety first that we have agreed to a clause in our CBA with the pilots that allows them to call fatigued, no questions asked, whenever they need to. Sure, it could possibly inconvenience you at some point, but wouldn't you agree it's better to be a little delayed than have a pilot up front who knows he's too tired to safely operate your aircraft? It's an extra layer of protection for YOU!".

If your management team can't figure out how to make hay out of a good union CBA, that's their problem, not the union's. If a conversation like you suggest above ever happens your company leaders are dumber than we think.

Also amusing how you like to bring up IBT history, yet continually ignore KR's history. How many times has he promised to bring back the 401K match? How many times has he followed through on his promise? So many more just like that too.

You are desperately trying to paint being unionized under the IBT as a bad thing. NJA is living proof that it's not! You keep trying to color it differently, but the problem is no matter what color crayon you us, it doesn't change the picture: The picture being they were exactly what we needed to get a good start into being unionized and providing necessary protections. As someone who has been here for the entire process I can attest to the truth of the fact that we simply outgrew them. We reached a size and scope where we could be more nimble on our own. Yes, okay, IBT wasn't happy with our decision to leave. So what. That doesn't mean that everything they did for us previously was suddenly tainted.

You guys are too small for an effective in-house union right now. ALPA will take MORE of your dues and provide almost nothing in return. You wouldn't be a pimple on a gnat's ass to them. There aren't any other unions you can join. It's IBT or non-union. Good luck with non-union under KR. I already KNOW how that will work out for you.

As for we at NJA wanting you to go union so we can see your company decline and maybe fail, that's absolutely ridiculous! How, exactly, would that help us in the future? Look at the airlines. When they negotiate they all say "We want what XYZ Airline has!". It drives the bar UP! No, your first contract won't be as good as ours. However, if you even have ONE provision in there that is better than we have, we will have something to strive for to improve our own CBA. Additionally, if your company declines and fails how could we argue to make more? Your company would then be the example our management needs to claim that increasing our compensation would kill our company. Why would we wish for that? We very badly want to see you be successful! I think it'd be awesome if you could get a CBA BETTER than what we have! None of us are hoping you unionize so that it hurts your company. You're being shrill and ridiculous.

As others have said, IBT is a means to an end. Your LOCAL representatives (the ones you elect) and the pilot group, NOT the head muckity-mucks at IBT, will be who determines how effective your union is. When we were IBT it was US who chose the direction and tone of things. We only went to the IBT for support in initiatives WE decided on. Your portrayal of it being otherwise is completely inaccurate.

Good luck FO/Flex pilots! If you vote in the IBT you'll have a hell of a fight ahead of you, but at least you'll be fighting to move in the right direction with some protections!

 

[Diesel]

I love this guy all he can do is keep pointing at Hoffa.

Seriously his posts are great.

Haha please give us more time to prove ourselves more time more time......

Please post more this is great.

 

[fischman]

Well WL, that last post was ummm, "interesting" and so far off the reservation of reality it makes me wonder of qualudes are making a comeback.

You want history? Okay, how about this? RTS fought our union tooth and nail about putting our fatigue policy in the CBA. No way did he want something that could be so limiting (but it hasn't really worked out like that). After we won and had it incorporated into our CBA, HE MADE IT A SELLING POINT TO OUR CLIENTS!

"Hey Mr. Moneybags, we are so concerned about putting safety first that we have agreed to a clause in our CBA with the pilots that allows them to call fatigued, no questions asked, whenever they need to. Sure, it could possibly inconvenience you at some point, but wouldn't you agree it's better to be a little delayed than have a pilot up front who knows he's too tired to safely operate your aircraft? It's an extra layer of protection for YOU!".

If your management team can't figure out how to make hay out of a good union CBA, that's their problem, not the union's. If a conversation like you suggest above ever happens your company leaders are dumber than we think.

Also amusing how you like to bring up IBT history, yet continually ignore KR's history. How many times has he promised to bring back the 401K match? How many times has he followed through on his promise? So many more just like that too.

You are desperately trying to paint being unionized under the IBT as a bad thing. NJA is living proof that it's not! You keep trying to color it differently, but the problem is no matter what color crayon you us, it doesn't change the picture: The picture being they were exactly what we needed to get a good start into being unionized and providing necessary protections. As someone who has been here for the entire process I can attest to the truth of the fact that we simply outgrew them. We reached a size and scope where we could be more nimble on our own. Yes, okay, IBT wasn't happy with our decision to leave. So what. That doesn't mean that everything they did for us previously was suddenly tainted.

You guys are too small for an effective in-house union right now. ALPA will take MORE of your dues and provide almost nothing in return. You wouldn't be a pimple on a gnat's ass to them. There aren't any other unions you can join. It's IBT or non-union. Good luck with non-union under KR. I already KNOW how that will work out for you.

As for we at NJA wanting you to go union so we can see your company decline and maybe fail, that's absolutely ridiculous! How, exactly, would that help us in the future? Look at the airlines. When they negotiate they all say "We want what XYZ Airline has!". It drives the bar UP! No, your first contract won't be as good as ours. However, if you even have ONE provision in there that is better than we have, we will have something to strive for to improve our own CBA. Additionally, if your company declines and fails how could we argue to make more? Your company would then be the example our management needs to claim that increasing our compensation would kill our company. Why would we wish for that? We very badly want to see you be successful! I think it'd be awesome if you could get a CBA BETTER than what we have! None of us are hoping you unionize so that it hurts your company. You're being shrill and ridiculous.

As others have said, IBT is a means to an end. Your LOCAL representatives (the ones you elect) and the pilot group, NOT the head muckity-mucks at IBT, will be who determines how effective your union is. When we were IBT it was US who chose the direction and tone of things. We only went to the IBT for support in initiatives WE decided on. Your portrayal of it being otherwise is completely inaccurate.

Good luck FO/Flex pilots! If you vote in the IBT you'll have a hell of a fight ahead of you, but at least you'll be fighting to move in the right direction with some protections!

I could not have said it better.

Fence sitters, if it isn't clear to you how badly management wants you to vote no, take a look at warlord's last post. It reaks of desperation. The correct choice is clear.

Vote yes.

 

[Semore Butts]

As s former Flex guy I can say

Having a union contract is head and shoulders over not having one.

To all my buddies at Flex, vote yes for the union.

I don't need to do all this back and forth jazz, I was there. A union is not without it's faults, but in my opinion, there is a reason that most all successful airlines have unions.

Good luck!

Semore

 

[warlord19]

For ANY non-voters out there:

Today is it. If you don?t cast your vote today, you can?t complain about the outcome.

Use your head when you do vote. HELP yourselves and your family (if you are FO) by raising all your pay and benefits to our (Flex) level and help begin to re-establish a culture of mutual respect and cooperation that the UNCIVIL IBT and its lackeys have destroyed.

VOTE NO!!!!
WL