NJA orders 50 Phenom 300s

[gutshotdraw]

Ergo, Stag = The Fischman

 

[fischman]

You know what's better than Stag? :beer:



nuthin'...

 

[fischman]

So, would this be correct?

That new Phenom 300 Platinum is Awesome®!

Awesome is a registered trademark of THE FISCHMAN and may not be used, abused, or rebroadcast in whole or in part without the express written consent of THE FISCHMAN. All rights reserved. MMX

Approved!

 

[fischman]

Now THAT is outstanding.......DAS get a Fischman award of Awesomeness, which can be redeemed for a cold case of Stag.

Which can be redeemed at The LuBar and Bistro in Carlyle, IL. Tell them THE Fischman sent you.

 

[HiSpeedFlyer]

Which can be redeemed at The LuBar and Bistro in Carlyle, IL. Tell them THE Fischman sent you.

Someday I will taste the golden goodness at the world renowned Palace of pleasure known as the LuBar.....oh Dare to dream!

 

[rajflyboy]

Phenom is simply Phenominal Platinum Style

these planes will have chrome rims and low profile tires (they might even have spinners on the chrome rims)

lol

 

[jtf]

spinners will be awesome! I wonder if we can MEL them when they break.

 

[rajflyboy]

spinners will be awesome! I wonder if we can MEL them when they break.

Na Na Na

That would be an NEF

 

[gret]

Are you guys done playing in each others underwear?

The deal will never get done. Watch what will happen in the next 60 days. Big problem with what Embraer is trying to do..it is probably not legal!

While Embraer has cornered approximately 14 percent of the bizjet market despite having delivered its first Legacy only in 2002, some are publicly questioning how the company has achieved this level of success without improper government subsidies. “This is an almost unbelievable feat for a company that has been manufacturing business aviation aircraft for a little more than seven years,” wrote Sen. Sam Brownback (R-Kan.), who called for a U.S. International Trade Commission review of industry competition in the U.S., China, Brazil, Canada and Europe.

It is called dumping product in the US. The deal is being paid for with trading in a/c (old Citations & Hawkers) and the company is being subsidized by the Brazilian government. Double whammy to Hawker and Cessna..they didn't get the order and once Embraer gets the trade ins..they will dump them on the market. What will that do for Cessna and Hawker? Thanks NetJets.

O my gosh!

 

[CA1900]

What will that do for Cessna and Hawker? Thanks NetJets.

Yes, it's totally NetJets' fault that Cessna and Hawker don't have a light jet that meets our needs. Cessna's gave us the CJ4, which uses the Williams engines we don't want. Hawker's light jet is still the warmed-over Beechjet, which has been a total disappointment for us.

But yeah, I totally see how it's our fault that we don't want what they're selling, and they won't make what we want.

 

[gret]

Not my point.

If they can't provide the product, they don't deserve the business.

The point is that NetJets is dumping their a/c (they never had a plan on dealing with old a/c) with the help of one manufacturer (who is subsidize by a foreign government) who is trying to gain market share and destroy the competition.

NetJets is being shrewd (and desperate), but may have crossed the line on this one as their supplier is already on the radar for their practices.

And before it starts...I'm not a NetJets hater...they just keep messing up and lack management that has any vision. They were never as good as they thought they were, but they had a great opportunity to take the industry to the next level, but the arrogance let it slip away.

 

[gret]

BTW thanks for posting soemthing that made sense and was a good counter...the rest of the crap on this board appears to be from individuals who barely made it out of the 6th grade.

 

[CA1900]

NetJets is being shrewd (and desperate), but may have crossed the line on this one as their supplier is already on the radar for their practices.

Ah, I see your point; I clamped onto the wrong one. If this is an ethical issue, I'd more put the blame on Embraer rather than Netjets, but I'm a little biased. :laugh:

And I hear you on the 6th grade comments -- I think this is where I'm supposed to call someone a "looser" or something.

 

[DAS at 10/250]

BTW thanks for posting soemthing that made sense and was a good counter...the rest of the crap on this board appears to be from individuals who barely made it out of the 6th grade.

NOT Awesome.

Misspelling "something" while insulting other folks intelligence. Priceless.:laugh:

Hint: The red dashed lines under words usually means soemthing (sic) is amiss.

 

[gunfyter]

Cessna and Hawker didn't get the order ... but no double whammy. The aircraft being turned in were already on the market ... no change there.

And did someone already post that much of the work on these airplanes will be US based? While Hawker Beech threatens the union with moving out of Wichita?

 

[BoilerUP]

Cessna's gave us the CJ4, which uses the Williams engines we don't want.

Why not? Williams makes a great engine...

As to "dumping product"...NJA has a good number of used airframes currently on the market and has for some time now but has been VERY good to not "dump" every airframe they want to dispose of at once because they know it would destroy already low values.

I'm pretty sure Embraer recognizes that fact, too...besides, I'm not sure the same potential buyers who would be looking at a 6000-11000hr used Ultra or Encore valued in the $1.5-4M ballpark are the same potential buyers who would be looking at a new $7-9M Phenom 300 or CJ4.

 

[gret]

NOT Awesome.

Misspelling "something" while insulting other folks intelligence. Priceless.:laugh:

Hint: The red dashed lines under words usually means soemthing (sic) is amiss.

two shay

 

[DAS at 10/250]

two shay

:beer:

 

[gret]

Cessna and Hawker didn't get the order ... but no double whammy. The aircraft being turned in were already on the market ... no change there.

True. However, NetJets would have an objective to sell the a/c for the highest possible price, while Embraer would benefit, long term, by dumping the Cessna and Hawker products at the lowest price.

"In business and economics, predatory pricing is the practice of selling a product or service at a very low price, intending to drive competitors out of the market, or create barriers to entry for potential new competitors."
​

The end result is that Cessna and Hawker will see their product resale values plummet, which will in turn drive down the prices of their new equipment to a level that is not sustainable. Meanwhile Embraer will have gained market share and won't have a resale blemish.

The fractional company can deflect criticism for "product dumping" and market disruption, by claiming they didn't sell the a/c, Embraer did.

It is a smart move by Embraer to gain market share and crush their competition. NetJets receives a bunch of new a/c paid for by a bloated inventory of a/c that nobody wants. In addition, they won't have to take the income statement hit, or the heat from existing owners for damaging resale values.

Brilliant, simply brilliant!

 

[fly4funcrj]

Unfortunately it's like gm. Gm built crap for so long no one wanted their POS cars. They were going to go the way of the $1.99 hooker. Our gov stepped in and saved them Cessna and HBC have built crap for a long time as well. Why should they be saved? Hell, cessna, as mentioned before, started a company to compete against us! F 'em..

 

[gunfyter]

"In business and economics, predatory pricing is the practice of selling a product or service at a very low price, intending to drive competitors out of the market, or create barriers to entry for potential new competitors."
​

Sounds like free market capitalism 101. You don't want competitors ... so you kill them. If you can.

 

[DAS at 10/250]

Unfortunately it's like gm. Gm built crap for so long no one wanted their POS cars. They were going to go the way of the $1.99 hooker. Our gov stepped in and saved them Cessna and HBC have built crap for a long time as well. Why should they be saved? Hell, cessna, as mentioned before, started a company to compete against us! F 'em..

Yup.





..

 

[rajflyboy]

Lets see

Embraer wants to sell a product.

Netjets wants to buy the product.

I don't see an issue with it. If Embraer wants to give them away and make no cash thats on them.

Netjets hopes the Phenom is as good as advertised.

Nothing illegal going on here.

 

[jtf]

There has been a lot of mud slinging by the Kansas politicians about this. Do they have any proof that Embraer is getting unfair government subsidies? Embraer has flatly denied all accusations. I have no idea if they are lying or not. I do know it is election season and politicians are trying to raise a stink when their state will probably lose more jobs now that Cessna is getting kicked to the curb due to not providing a good enough product and/ or a good enough deal. Honestly, even if they could do the same deal, they still don't make a durable enough product for what the fractionals do. Embraer came in and specifically asked the fractionals what they wanted and then went out and did it. I wish Cessna would have paid attention to what happened in Detroit, but so far they haven't and now Embraer has their foot in the door. Hopefully this big order will wake Cessna up and bring about some better made aircraft before it is too late for them. When I was at the regionals I made fun of the Embraers I flew since they appeared to break a lot. Then I started flying Cessna jets and realized the Embraers were practically tanks in comparison. I guess it is nice to get a break from flying when your airplane breaks just about every tour, but it sure isn't good for business.

Even if Embraer is proven to be getting the government subsidies, will it effect anything? Both Airbus and Boeing have been shown to take illegal money/ loans from their respective governments and there haven't been any cancelled orders for that that I have seen. It also took many years of forensic accounting to prove the respective cases against Airbus and Boeing. I highly doubt there is time to prove it before the orders are being filled. Is there any proof that Embraer is going to dump all the airplanes on the market at once? I guess if they can get away with it, it is good business for them (not saying I agree that they should do it). I just find it hard to believe this deal will be killed. Maybe it will be changed if the sabers are rattled, but unless Cessna can roll out a better product before 2013, I hope it stands.

 

[jonjuan]

"In business and economics, predatory pricing is the practice of selling a product or service at a very low price, intending to drive competitors out of the market, or create barriers to entry for potential new competitors."
​

Sounds like free market capitalism 101. You don't want competitors ... so you kill them. If you can.

Isn't this what the rest of the competitors in the industry have been doing for years, selling the same product/service for cheaper?

 

[Pervis]

Why not? Williams makes a great engine...

The engine maintenance requirements are the problem. I heard it has to do with all mx has to be done at the factory, or something like that. Who would foot the bill for spare engines all over the place?

 

[BoilerUP]

The engine maintenance requirements are the problem. I heard it has to do with all mx has to be done at the factory, or something like that. Who would foot the bill for spare engines all over the place?

Yes, Williams International is the only service provider for FJ44 engines.

That said, the engines are NOT maintenance intensive and Williams is the #1 rated engine manufacturer for support despite that fact and Williams can get a spare engine to any airplane in the domestic US in less than 24 hours (I know that from first-hand experience).

Besides, its not like NJA wouldn't enroll every aircraft in the TAP engine program (just like Pratt ESP/Honeywell MSP/Rolls Corporate Care/JSSI/etc.) where there are no additional costs for scheduled or unscheduled engine service to include rental engines besides the hourly engine program rate.

 

[Crash Pad]

What company did Cessna start to compete against you?

 

[BoilerUP]

CitationShares was started in 2000 as a 50/50 joint venture between Cessna and TAG Aviation USA; in 2004 Cessna bought half of TAG's stake giving it 75/25 ownership and just last year at NBAA Cessna announced they were buying TAG's last remaining stake to make CitationAir wholly-owned.

 

[Crash Pad]

So how do we know that Cessna created CS to directly compete with NJ?