NJA or Frontier

[USMC319]

RS T9,
I've flown both as well as military and can tell you that for me Frontier provides a far superior choice in both lifestyle and pay. However, having said that, I would recommend that you choose Netjets unless you are 100% sure that you want to come join the Frontier team and help build this airline. There are way too many excellent pilots out there that would give anything for your slot.....don't waste it.

Frontier is not like most other airlines in that it is more of a family environment and an we don't put up with malcontents like batsky2000, whom was fired for a poor attitude. Be careful in who you heed career advice from because there are many with a hidden agenda s like L'il J.Seinfeld who is a Frontier hater. You can tell who they are. Good luck to you sir, and may you find what it is you are looking for.

 

[AA717driver]

bus driver for the dregs of humanity flying LCC's these days.

"Dregs"? I'm on Frontier a lot.

Soon as I finish my smoke, I'm gonna strip off my Carharts and 'wife-beater-T' and kick yer a$$!

TC

 

[crashpad]

Why do the Corporate Guys feel it's necessarry to defend their profession on this side of The Board? The General Aviation community is a great place to serve and they have nothing to be ashamed of. Whether or not RS-T9 becomes an Airline Pilot will ultimately be in the hands of those who decide if he has what it takes to be responsible for millions of travelers each year. If he doesn't get this opportunity, there will always be the alternative. Let's not get into comparisons.






Space Shuttle/Airport Shuttle
FBI Agent/TSA Agent
Doctor/Orderly
Priest/Alter Boy
Jedi/Wookie

 

[WNFO]

Look Dude, Go with whoever has the best options for you personally. I have friends still flying at F9 who love it, some left to go other places a couple are still there. Two of them actually flew at NJA. I have friends still at NJA who love it and don't want to leave as well as at just about every other major. Hopefully we will all have jobs in 10 years anyway!

 

[Frequency]

Has nobody learned anything?!?!?!

Just because your company is doing great/poorly now, does not mean that in 5 years it will still be so. Look at the legacies! All were top of the game a few years ago but now its quite the opposite.

When I got hired at my regional, Air Wisconsin and Comair were the best regionals out there with the best QOL. 5 short years later its not so anymore. Last year, NetJets sucked, but now its the place to be. Same with the LCC's. Who would of thought of taking a job at Airtran 5 years ago? People would have been on theis very message board telling you that you are f$%$#ing crazy but if you had, you would be a captain on a 717 or 737 right now pulling in $140k. People are fighting to get in there now, I know I am. Dont let the current state of the industry dictate where you go. Because it will not always be that way, thats the only guarantee. If Buffet sells NJA, the QOL could go downhill really fast at NJA and if Herb Kelleher leaves SWA, life might go down hill really fast for them too. What if United buys CAL or vice versa? CAL sounds like a great place to work but a lot of people will soon be furloughed if that happens.

I guess in summary its a gamble. There are no sure things even though something looks like a sure thing right now. My vote is to go with the job that will keep you close to home. i.e. no commute. If you live in Denver go with F9 if not go with NJA. That will be the thing that matters most in the end.

Freq

 

[Apus]

I was at NJ for many years - left not too long ago - will miss some of the flying - not the company and it's operations or management. From my years there, if you want to live the life of unpredictability, filing grievances, never knowing when you're getting home on your last day, etc consider it. For career term quality of life, take the opportunity at F9 as someone else stated. I question what new hires are walking into NJ long term. Their interview presentation is great, makes you want it. But it's not what you'll get day to day.

A319 vs. 400XP: You will be assigned into the smallest corporate jet in the world (close to it)and spend several years there as an FO, then only to move on to a slightly larger very small jet as Captain. It will take you 5-7 yearst get into an even mid sized business jet. You'll be bored shitless by then with 5-7 legs a day - tired and jerked around by schedulers and operations. The pilots are as good as any, but some are pretty scared by the last contract and you'll hear much about it. If you can handle, then more power to you.

At F9 it will be (in comparison) more structured and straight forward in contrast to fractional flying and fractional management (reserve sucks, but it's a fact at F9, then you're done). At NJ, in a few years there is a reasonable chance you'd be looking elsewhere.

The pilots at the Fracs with good senority and hindsight - and having gotten in when they did, are in a pretty good position. But for newhires, with the choice you're talking about, I'd take the experience and resume builder (if ever needed) of F9.

Be flattered by the chance to choose - that's all.

L'il J. Seinfeld, all the respect... Just a different take on it.

I would rather be a "James" for a celeb like Mariah instead of being a bus driver for the dregs of humanity flying LCC's these days. To each his own. For me, I am averse to risk and want to make life uncomplicated. I hope F9 makes it. The pax industry is being pulled down by the legacies. There needs to be a liquidation. Maybe the Delta guys will step up and vote the latest TA down.

Can you imagine the regret those guys who left cargo in th elate 90s feel now?

 

[gutshotdraw]

RS T9

I suppose it's nice to have the choice. That said, as I have posted elsewhere on this board, do yourself a favor and go to law school or med school or go to Wall Street. Earn buckets of cash and then fly airplanes as a goof.

Flying airplanes may be (used to be?) a fun way to make a living but aviation is a STUPID business.

If you insist on flying for a paycheck, remember one thing: Never work for a company that makes (loses?) its money flying airplanes.

Northwest, DAL, UAL, et al FLY AIRPLANES to make money.

NJA SELLS AIRPLANES to make money.

FEDEX and UPS MOVE PACKAGES to make money.

See a trend here? Go with your gut feeling and best of luck to you.

 

[AA717driver]

Why do the Corporate Guys feel it's necessarry to defend their profession on this side of The Board? The General Aviation community is a great place to serve and they have nothing to be ashamed of. Whether or not RS-T9 becomes an Airline Pilot will ultimately be in the hands of those who decide if he has what it takes to be responsible for millions of travelers each year. If he doesn't get this opportunity, there will always be the alternative. Let's not get into comparisons.

RS-T9 actually asked for comparisons to be made. Thanks for making one of the most condescinding posts I've ever read.

I case you missed it, the airlines are a disaster as far as pay and working conditions these days (not to mention job security). I don't know at which airline you achieved the exhalted status of "airline pilot" but you really should stop believing your own press.TC

 

[F9 Driver]

I KNOW I'm going to regret this, but....

For the sake of the original question:

Take NJA,

-100% better hotels - WE STAY AT SOME OF THE SAME, BUT NO DOUBT NJ STAYS AT BETTER HOTELS 9/10 TIMES.
-Crew meals of your choice unlike NONE at Frontier or the crap that they use to give - THE FIRST THOUSAND TIMES I ATE YARD BIRD SANDWITCHES FROM RUDIE'S AT 410 I THOUGHT IT WAS GREAT. NOW I LIKE BEING ABLE TO TAKE MY WIFE TO MORTON'S ON MY DAYS OFF.
- they airline you to work on day 1 and airline you home on day 7, NO commuting on your days off like at F9 or elsewhere - LIKE I SAID I DON'T / NEVER HAVE COMMUTE(ED)
-7&7 schedule does not suck, it beats being on reserve for 6 days then only having 2 days off, if you get lucky you get 3 days off, at least you will get 7 hard days off in a row - I THOUGHT THE SAME. NOW FOUR DAYS AWAY FROM HOME FEELS LIKE ALOT. TO EACH THEIR OWN.
-you get to keep all of your airline miles and hotel points - THAT WAS COOL. I'D RATHER HAVE JUMPSEAT PRIVS, NONREV FOR MY FAMILY, AND RECIP. AGREEMENTS WITH OTHER AIRLINES + MORE TIME TO USE THEM.
- NJA pays for your uniforms - AND THEY ARE BETTER LOOKING. NO HAT!!! AWSOME.
-NJA gives you free benefits(Medical,Dental,etc.), at F9 it will cost you close to $2000 per year if not more with a family - TRUE. BUT I GOT MORE THAN A 2000 PAY DIFERENTIAL TO MAKE UP FOR IT.
- Pay at NJA right now is very good, Pay at F9 is good also, but they are looking at a pay cut, the company was asking for a 50% cut and the union laughed, last message that I saw was about cutting pay for newhires, so who knows - HERE'S WHERE BAT$HIT2000 GOES FISHING. NEVER HAS THE COMPANY ASKED FOR A %50 PAY CUT NOR ARE WE IN A POSITION TO GIVE UP ANYTHING. WE HAVE A CONTRACT THAT IS IN FORCE PER THE RLA UNTIL WE NEGOTIATE ANOTHER. THIS TWIT IS A %10er THAT WE'RE GLAD TO BE RID OF. I JUST WISH HE/SHE WOULD GO FLY HIS/HER G-WIZZ AND BE HAPPY!

NJA is the way to go- FOR BATSKY - THANKS!

In the end I find myself agreeing with USMC319. If you aren't sure this is the place for you it probably isn't.

Best of luck!

 

[jetalc]

FWIW, my stress level has gone down tremendously since going to F9. Good people, good airplanes, good routes. I have several friends at NJA that have been there for some years, and love that lifestyle - for me, I like to know where I'm going to be the next month, and having to take off for a week, or in some cases, a month, doesn't really float my boat for the QOL issues.

For those Barstool Quarterbacks who say "the F9 business model doesn't work" need to do a little more research. This isn't meant to further aggravate those on this board who are obviously easily aggravated, it is simply a fact. How many airlines have lost money this past year? And longer? That doesn't mean their business model doesn't necessarily work, and anyone with a couple of brain cells and a TV can put together the facts regarding the rising costs and consistently low yields the industry has been subject to. Too many "experts" who really don't necessarily know what is going on over at the F9 General Offices, and would like you to believe that they're somehow "in the know." I would ask them directly how they can substantiate their "facts," but quite frankly, I don't really care why they're makin' this stuff up.

All I can say is that I'm very happy at F9 - I work to live instead of living to work, and I do this typically about 2-3 days at a time instead of seven or more in a row. Pay is very good at F9, but I'm not a terribly greedy person, so $140K+ per year (after a couple of years) is not too bad for a slouch like myself.

Good luck with your decision - others have already mentioned what a personal decision it is, and there is no right answer except within you. We'd love to see you on line at F9, especially since you got through a tough interview process, but there will be no hard feelings if you simply choose what's right for you. Take care.

 

[jetalc]

Take NJA,

-100% better hotels
-Crew meals of your choice unlike NONE at Frontier or the crap that they use to give
- they airline you to work on day 1 and airline you home on day 7, NO commuting on your days off like at F9 or elsewhere
-7&7 schedule does not suck, it beats being on reserve for 6 days then only having 2 days off, if you get lucky you get 3 days off, at least you will get 7 hard days off in a row
-you get to keep all of your airline miles and hotel points
- NJA pays for your uniforms
-NJA gives you free benefits(Medical,Dental,etc.), at F9 it will cost you close to $2000 per year if not more with a family
- Pay at NJA right now is very good, Pay at F9 is good also, but they are looking at a pay cut, the company was asking for a 50% cut and the union laughed, last message that I saw was about cutting pay for newhires, so who knows

NJA is the way to go

Blah, Blah, Blah - please see my previous post under "Barstool Quarterbacks." Especially the last sentence has the rancid stench of a bitter terminated employee. How sad.

 

[AnimalTale]

RS T9, I would recommend that you choose Netjets unless you are 100% sure that you want to come join the Frontier team and help build this airline.

I would say go to Netjets. By now if the F9 interview process has not answered your ???s, and you are still batting your head on the wall------> go to Netjets.

We want people to love it here. I dont want you to come on board and COMPLAIN or wish you had gone somewhere else.

Come here with 100% effort and stay or else go to NJets-----> If u are hesitent, u will not fit in.

Cya

 

[batsky2000]

F9 $hit Driver,

Quote:
Originally Posted by batsky2000
Take NJA,

-100% better hotels - WE STAY AT SOME OF THE SAME, BUT NO DOUBT NJ STAYS AT BETTER HOTELS 9/10 TIMES. OK, still 9/10 and no po dunk place and we can switch places if we don't like were they put us, not an option for you, plus 9/10 times, we get a free full breakfast, and free computer access
-Crew meals of your choice unlike NONE at Frontier or the crap that they use to give - THE FIRST THOUSAND TIMES I ATE YARD BIRD SANDWITCHES FROM RUDIE'S AT 410 I THOUGHT IT WAS GREAT. NOW I LIKE BEING ABLE TO TAKE MY WIFE TO MORTON'S ON MY DAYS OFF. I guess those yard bird sandwitches suck compared to the great snaks you get now? I get to choose my meals pretty much anything and its nice when the FA makes me my meal for me if need be not an option for you
- they airline you to work on day 1 and airline you home on day 7, NO commuting on your days off like at F9 or elsewhere - LIKE I SAID I DON'T / NEVER HAVE COMMUTE(ED) good for you, it is nice to be homebased for me, I drive 10 min. to my airport and fly on day 1 to where my aircraft is based and go to the hotel, thats day 1
-7&7 schedule does not suck, it beats being on reserve for 6 days then only having 2 days off, if you get lucky you get 3 days off, at least you will get 7 hard days off in a row - I THOUGHT THE SAME. NOW FOUR DAYS AWAY FROM HOME FEELS LIKE ALOT. TO EACH THEIR OWN. As you stated, to each his own
-you get to keep all of your airline miles and hotel points - THAT WAS COOL. I'D RATHER HAVE JUMPSEAT PRIVS, NONREV FOR MY FAMILY, AND RECIP. AGREEMENTS WITH OTHER AIRLINES + MORE TIME TO USE THEM. Here is where you are Full of it, most people can't stand to jumpseat, or non rev, you are at the bottom of the pack, at least with my hotel points,(up to 1 mil. Hilton points) and over 1 mil. AA miles, I can travel plenty if I want to, plus I can use my miles to get anyone a ticket, not just family, plus with all of the airline alliances, I can use my miles on many other airlines as well, and as stated, when I use my miles, I have a ticket, when you non-rev, you are standby, that sucks, hard to go to mexico when you don't know if you will make it back or not
- NJA pays for your uniforms - AND THEY ARE BETTER LOOKING. NO HAT!!! AWSOME. oh yea
-NJA gives you free benefits(Medical,Dental,etc.), at F9 it will cost you close to $2000 per year if not more with a family - TRUE. BUT I GOT MORE THAN A 2000 PAY DIFERENTIAL TO MAKE UP FOR IT. I will keep my $2000, just think if you could have invested that $2000 insted of waisting it on benefits, but you can think what you want, call it a $2000 dif if that makes you feel better
- Pay at NJA right now is very good, Pay at F9 is good also, but they are looking at a pay cut, the company was asking for a 50% cut and the union laughed, last message that I saw was about cutting pay for newhires, so who knows - HERE'S WHERE BAT$HIT2000 GOES FISHING. NEVER HAS THE COMPANY ASKED FOR A %50 PAY CUT NOR ARE WE IN A POSITION TO GIVE UP ANYTHING. WE HAVE A CONTRACT THAT IS IN FORCE PER THE RLA UNTIL WE NEGOTIATE ANOTHER. THIS TWIT IS A %10er THAT WE'RE GLAD TO BE RID OF. I JUST WISH HE/SHE WOULD GO FLY HIS/HER G-WIZZ AND BE HAPPY! well, this is what I heard from one of your Captains, and I won't mention a name

NJA is the way to go- FOR BATSKY - THANKS!

Good Luck

 

[Jetsi]

Just thought I would put my thoughts in, since you are asking. I didn't work for NJA, but for RTA/FLOPS. But I feel it is close enough to compare.

1. Schedule: It was said earlier about the lines at F9. Only one person below me had a hard line. I have 16 days off in January, with the opportunity to pick up flying and not decrease my days off. Working for a frac is like perpetual reserve. You get more days off in a row (7&7), but after you have spent a year of your life living out of a roller bag for 7 days, you quickly tire of it. You also spend 2 of your days recovering from being worked like a dog the previous 7. Not to mention the fact that in the winter you need to pack for both FL overnights and NY overnights, which makes for a really full bag. Personally, I prefer the 4/3 schedule that my line is offering, along with knowing my destinations up to 6 weeks in advance.

2. Hotel Points and Airline Miles: Boy, did I rack up some points and miles while working for the fracs. It isn't free, but if you go to the hotels we stay at, you get our rate for staying. There are also some websites which put out really discounted rates for everything from all-inclusive hotels to cruises, etc. If hotel miles and airline points are your thing, you will want NJA.

3. Compensation: Tough call. F9 pay is outstanding for a LCC, especially in the "early" years. Upgrade times were discussed for NJA earlier, and I don't have the pay scales in front of me. For my situation, I was a 5th year captain on the 400. I took an approximately $20,000 pay cut to go to Frontier, and I will be making more when I go to a 3rd year FO. So I lost a little in the long run, but I was never going to see a 6 figure salary at Options. Even if an upgrade takes 10 years (hopefully it won't), I still come out ahead in the long run.

4. Benefits: They aren't the greatest right now, but I don't see them getting any worse, and IMHO I think that they will improve with the next contract.

As you figured out, I would choose Frontier over any frac any day of the week, for the following reasons.

1. Before getting on with F9, I was depressed, tired, and on the verge of divorce due to the schedule and its mental and physical demands.

2. I have been on reserve 21 months, and I still wouldn't ever consider going back to the fracs.

3. I don't commute to work, which was a painful experience while working for RTA/FLOPS (yeah you got a ticket, but you are still commuting).

4. My pay will easily total a higher amount at F9 than it would at FLOPS. With the contract at NJA, I don't know how the numbers will compare. But I think you would make more money in the long run at F9.

Bottom line. I am happy here, and enjoy going to work. I work with an outstanding group of professsionals who are easy to get along with. There are a few who think F9 is a terrible place, or there are those that believe we will be having a closeout sale in 6 months, and that is their opinion. But if you asked current pilots at either establishment if they are satisfied with their job, I bet the majority of those that are would be at F9.

Best of luck in your decision.

Jetsi

 

[Lake Alice]

NJA is a much better run company and is profitable, Frontier is neither.

Quite the contrary. NJA is one of the most poorly run aviation companies. Can't speak for F9

I would rather be a "James" for a celeb like Mariah instead of being a bus driver for the dregs of humanity flying LCC's these days.

Spoken like someone who has never flown Mariah or those like her.

 

[jetalc]

...Not to mention the fact that in the winter you need to pack for both FL overnights and NY overnights, which makes for a really full bag...

And don't forget that you still need room for that curling iron and the manicure kit.

 

[sluggo]

What?

I read these hate posts and don't understand why there is so much hate. Why do some of you have this pent up angst against one another or other airlines? Were all pilots, were all human. Any of us could be in any airline seat we wish...So, Why all of the ill will on this board? When you go ask for a jumpseat at an airline you hate, do you change face or do you act like you really are? Get real...

 

[AnimalTale]

I read these hate posts and don't understand why there is so much hate. Why do some of you have this pent up angst against one another or other airlines? Were all pilots, were all human. Any of us could be in any airline seat we wish...So, Why all of the ill will on this board? When you go ask for a jumpseat at an airline you hate, do you change face or do you act like you really are? Get real...

Sluggo,

One word, "EGO"
Another word, "Arrogance"

Ego+Arrogance=downward spiral of our industry

CYA

 

[Chuck Yogourt]

In the words of the great Rodney King: "Why can't we all just get along"?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

What are the reserve schedules like at F9? Airport Ready Reserve? How long is home reserve callout.... do they have 24 hour callout?

Also- Duty Rigs, Trip Rigs? International override?

CASS?


I love the route structure, the airbus, and Denver. I've heard almost all good things about the airline but have not been able to find answers to these... until now, hopefully. Thanks!