NJA or Frontier

[RS_T9]

I am in the fortunate position of having two offers from NJA and Frontier Airlines. I have been banging my head against the wall trying to decide which job to take.

Any and all opinions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[WNFO]

Frontier is small with only around 50 airplanes. I don't see that place being a player for too much longer in the industry regardless of what some other people might think. Just look at the facts of how the operate their business. Not much room to cut costs any more unless it comes from the pilot's wallets.

 

[Diesel]

where do you live? No commuting with NJA. It's their problem to get you to the plan not yours.

What are your pros and cons for both companies?

 

[F9 Driver]

Who knows?

imp: Having come from EJA I like F9 better.

Better QOL. More pay – even with your new contract. More time at home.

I don’t commute so I won’t speak to that, but if you’ve worked 121 before NJA will be a much DIFFERENT experience for you.

As far as taking one job over another for security sake I’d say to polish up your crystal ball for the answer.

BH could decide to sell off NJA changing the picture completely. F9 could merge, be bought, or go out of business. (So could B6 my new hire kool aid drinking friend – FlyB6, and like the old saying goes “It aint the size of the ship, but its motion in the ocean!)

You pay your money, and you take your chances! If you want a sure thing go back to school for mortuary science. Good luck!
:beer:

 

[CAL EWR B737]

imp: Having come from EJA I like F9 better.

As far as taking one job over another for security sake I’d say to polish up your crystal ball for the answer.

You pay your money, and you take your chances! If you want a sure thing go back to school for mortuary science. Good luck!
:beer:

One of the most succinct statements I have read on this forum to date!

 

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

NJA is a much better run company and is profitable, Frontier is neither. It's a business decision and an easy one. NJA.

 

[FLYLOW22]

imp: Having come from EJA I like F9 better.

Better QOL. More pay – even with your new contract. More time at home.

:beer:

I dunno... I've been waiting IOE and haven't turned a wheel since October. Seems like plenty of time off to me.

Hahaha. No seriously, it's good to have choices. It's all about the pros and cons. Enjoy your choice.

I just think it funny that this thread has popped up now twice since the new contract...

NJA or Brand X??

 

[StaySeated]

I am biased, not as biased as FlyB6, but still biased. Something to consider, if you have an offer from F9 then you will be in ground school asap and with the projected hiring for the rest of this year you will not be sitting reserve very long. Netjets is kind of like perpetual reserve, some people like that "variety", some don't. The most junior line next month has 15 days off and 80 hours of credit. F9 has an above average scheduling section with a very good add/drop/trade system that basically lets line holders build their entire schedule online. We could go out of business tomorrow for all I know, but the leadership team at F9 is very strong and everyone from the ramp to the gate to the crew is on the same page which is very refreshing. Congrats on the offer and good luck whichever direction you choose.

 

[TooLow]

Stay seated - I must correct you because the most junior lines have only 12 days off/75hrs credit. Nonetheless I'm quite happy at F9 having flown for a sister company of EJA.

I'm not going to list all the pros/cons of the 2 companies because that's a personal choice. While I miss the free medical insurance & uniforms and great 401K at exec jet, these are not career-changing issues for me. The hotels at F9 are not as good and we can't accrue points or order fancy catering, but I can adjust my schedule and control my work/social life alot more. That means alot to me.

As for the crystal ball, F9 is a coin toss while Netjets is probably a safer bet. All I know is that the rich keep getting richer and they like their shiny private jets while its a real dogfight in the airline industry. Good luck!

 

[Chuck Yogourt]

Go to Frontier. Great Airline. It will be here and survive. Lots of friends there.

 

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

Open your eyes. The pax carriers are not a viable option anymore. Just wait until SWA spins up in Den and Virgin starts flying. It is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. The mgt team may be the best in the world and it won't matter. It's flawed business model that will never work. They are losing money now.

 

[Shrek]

Go to NJA so I can get your F9 slot

It is GREAT to have choices during this time in the industry.......it doesn't happen much. Talk to your family and work out what is more important to you. Good luck in either choice my friend.....

 

[F9 Driver]

Thanks for the insight Jerry

Open your eyes. The pax carriers are not a viable option anymore.

Cause nobody has ever THOUGHT of starting up a LCC freight operation, and Pan Am errr I mean UPS/FedEx are well beyond the reach of any competition.

Sorry I digress.

RS_T9, Make the best choice you can for you with the information you've got at the time, and keep your fingers crossed. FWIW I don't plan on looking for a new job anytime soon.

 

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

If you want to ship a pair of shoes from Thailand to Charleston, WV you have 3 choices. FedEx, UPS, and DHL are the only games in town and they are splitting the market share. There will never be another startup package delivery company. The barriers to entry are way to high.

I don't mean to insult you F9 Driver. You've chosen your path and have to live with it. This guy would be making a huge mistake to go to Frontier. Your company has lost money in the last 12 months and it is about to get a lot worse. Who cares if you keep hiring if the jobs suck and pay low and then go bankrupt.

 

[AnimalTale]

If you want to be an airlinepilot go to F9.
If you want to be a Frac pilot go to NJets.

Things are cyclical. Not too long ago (3 mos) Netjet pilots where hating their contract struggles.

Back in the mid to late 90s people where leaving SWA, UPS and Fed Ex for places like NWA, AA, and UAL. Can you believe that?

I can tell you this. Never regret your choice and always know that if you lose your job you can get another job, that's if you want to.

Believe me, F9 is a great place and I would not worry about SWA. If AWA has competed with SWA all these years, you can bet F9 will too. Also F9 has been competing with UAL, UNDER BANCRUPTCY. That is something to behold.

I would go to NJets for the food, and hotel points. I dont think I can handle the long duty days,7 on 7 off, snobbish celebs (Mariah Carrey) and the feel of being someones "DRIVER or JAMES". I would be too envious. For now I am happy being a humble "bus driver".\

CYA

 

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

I would rather be a "James" for a celeb like Mariah instead of being a bus driver for the dregs of humanity flying LCC's these days. To each his own. For me, I am averse to risk and want to make life uncomplicated. I hope F9 makes it. The pax industry is being pulled down by the legacies. There needs to be a liquidation. Maybe the Delta guys will step up and vote the latest TA down.

Can you imagine the regret those guys who left cargo in th elate 90s feel now?

 

[RS_T9]

These are exactly the discussions, opinions, and arguments I need to hear in this thread. I have been going back and forth in my own mind similar things you guys are discussing. I come from a 121 background and know nothing about the fractionals, but it seems to me:

-the odds are with NJA as far as stability (even though Warren Buffet is around 80 years old, and nobody can really access their financials)
-the 401k and health beneifts at NJA are far superior
-being gone for 7 days sucks

-better QOL at Frontier
-the pay at Frontier is slightly better in the long run
-an easier and familiar transiton to Frontier cuz im already an airline guy

You guys are awesome...a very pro-active group

Still undecided

 

[arthompson]

F9 is like the old Frontier, no company that has ever tried to merge with/aquire them has survived beyond the agreement.

 

[F9 Driver]

I don't mean to insult you F9 Driver. You've chosen your path and have to live with it.

OK.

Good luck to us all!:bawling:

 

[batsky2000]

Take NJA,

-100% better hotels
-Crew meals of your choice unlike NONE at Frontier or the crap that they use to give
- they airline you to work on day 1 and airline you home on day 7, NO commuting on your days off like at F9 or elsewhere
-7&7 schedule does not suck, it beats being on reserve for 6 days then only having 2 days off, if you get lucky you get 3 days off, at least you will get 7 hard days off in a row
-you get to keep all of your airline miles and hotel points
- NJA pays for your uniforms
-NJA gives you free benefits(Medical,Dental,etc.), at F9 it will cost you close to $2000 per year if not more with a family
- Pay at NJA right now is very good, Pay at F9 is good also, but they are looking at a pay cut, the company was asking for a 50% cut and the union laughed, last message that I saw was about cutting pay for newhires, so who knows

NJA is the way to go

 

[USMC319]

RS T9,
I've flown both as well as military and can tell you that for me Frontier provides a far superior choice in both lifestyle and pay. However, having said that, I would recommend that you choose Netjets unless you are 100% sure that you want to come join the Frontier team and help build this airline. There are way too many excellent pilots out there that would give anything for your slot.....don't waste it.

Frontier is not like most other airlines in that it is more of a family environment and an we don't put up with malcontents like batsky2000, whom was fired for a poor attitude. Be careful in who you heed career advice from because there are many with a hidden agenda s like L'il J.Seinfeld who is a Frontier hater. You can tell who they are. Good luck to you sir, and may you find what it is you are looking for.

 

[AA717driver]

bus driver for the dregs of humanity flying LCC's these days.

"Dregs"? I'm on Frontier a lot.

Soon as I finish my smoke, I'm gonna strip off my Carharts and 'wife-beater-T' and kick yer a$$!

TC

 

[crashpad]

Why do the Corporate Guys feel it's necessarry to defend their profession on this side of The Board? The General Aviation community is a great place to serve and they have nothing to be ashamed of. Whether or not RS-T9 becomes an Airline Pilot will ultimately be in the hands of those who decide if he has what it takes to be responsible for millions of travelers each year. If he doesn't get this opportunity, there will always be the alternative. Let's not get into comparisons.






Space Shuttle/Airport Shuttle
FBI Agent/TSA Agent
Doctor/Orderly
Priest/Alter Boy
Jedi/Wookie

 

[WNFO]

Look Dude, Go with whoever has the best options for you personally. I have friends still flying at F9 who love it, some left to go other places a couple are still there. Two of them actually flew at NJA. I have friends still at NJA who love it and don't want to leave as well as at just about every other major. Hopefully we will all have jobs in 10 years anyway!

 

[Frequency]

Has nobody learned anything?!?!?!

Just because your company is doing great/poorly now, does not mean that in 5 years it will still be so. Look at the legacies! All were top of the game a few years ago but now its quite the opposite.

When I got hired at my regional, Air Wisconsin and Comair were the best regionals out there with the best QOL. 5 short years later its not so anymore. Last year, NetJets sucked, but now its the place to be. Same with the LCC's. Who would of thought of taking a job at Airtran 5 years ago? People would have been on theis very message board telling you that you are f$%$#ing crazy but if you had, you would be a captain on a 717 or 737 right now pulling in $140k. People are fighting to get in there now, I know I am. Dont let the current state of the industry dictate where you go. Because it will not always be that way, thats the only guarantee. If Buffet sells NJA, the QOL could go downhill really fast at NJA and if Herb Kelleher leaves SWA, life might go down hill really fast for them too. What if United buys CAL or vice versa? CAL sounds like a great place to work but a lot of people will soon be furloughed if that happens.

I guess in summary its a gamble. There are no sure things even though something looks like a sure thing right now. My vote is to go with the job that will keep you close to home. i.e. no commute. If you live in Denver go with F9 if not go with NJA. That will be the thing that matters most in the end.

Freq

 

[Apus]

I was at NJ for many years - left not too long ago - will miss some of the flying - not the company and it's operations or management. From my years there, if you want to live the life of unpredictability, filing grievances, never knowing when you're getting home on your last day, etc consider it. For career term quality of life, take the opportunity at F9 as someone else stated. I question what new hires are walking into NJ long term. Their interview presentation is great, makes you want it. But it's not what you'll get day to day.

A319 vs. 400XP: You will be assigned into the smallest corporate jet in the world (close to it)and spend several years there as an FO, then only to move on to a slightly larger very small jet as Captain. It will take you 5-7 yearst get into an even mid sized business jet. You'll be bored shitless by then with 5-7 legs a day - tired and jerked around by schedulers and operations. The pilots are as good as any, but some are pretty scared by the last contract and you'll hear much about it. If you can handle, then more power to you.

At F9 it will be (in comparison) more structured and straight forward in contrast to fractional flying and fractional management (reserve sucks, but it's a fact at F9, then you're done). At NJ, in a few years there is a reasonable chance you'd be looking elsewhere.

The pilots at the Fracs with good senority and hindsight - and having gotten in when they did, are in a pretty good position. But for newhires, with the choice you're talking about, I'd take the experience and resume builder (if ever needed) of F9.

Be flattered by the chance to choose - that's all.

L'il J. Seinfeld, all the respect... Just a different take on it.

I would rather be a "James" for a celeb like Mariah instead of being a bus driver for the dregs of humanity flying LCC's these days. To each his own. For me, I am averse to risk and want to make life uncomplicated. I hope F9 makes it. The pax industry is being pulled down by the legacies. There needs to be a liquidation. Maybe the Delta guys will step up and vote the latest TA down.

Can you imagine the regret those guys who left cargo in th elate 90s feel now?

 

[gutshotdraw]

RS T9

I suppose it's nice to have the choice. That said, as I have posted elsewhere on this board, do yourself a favor and go to law school or med school or go to Wall Street. Earn buckets of cash and then fly airplanes as a goof.

Flying airplanes may be (used to be?) a fun way to make a living but aviation is a STUPID business.

If you insist on flying for a paycheck, remember one thing: Never work for a company that makes (loses?) its money flying airplanes.

Northwest, DAL, UAL, et al FLY AIRPLANES to make money.

NJA SELLS AIRPLANES to make money.

FEDEX and UPS MOVE PACKAGES to make money.

See a trend here? Go with your gut feeling and best of luck to you.

 

[AA717driver]

Why do the Corporate Guys feel it's necessarry to defend their profession on this side of The Board? The General Aviation community is a great place to serve and they have nothing to be ashamed of. Whether or not RS-T9 becomes an Airline Pilot will ultimately be in the hands of those who decide if he has what it takes to be responsible for millions of travelers each year. If he doesn't get this opportunity, there will always be the alternative. Let's not get into comparisons.

RS-T9 actually asked for comparisons to be made. Thanks for making one of the most condescinding posts I've ever read.

I case you missed it, the airlines are a disaster as far as pay and working conditions these days (not to mention job security). I don't know at which airline you achieved the exhalted status of "airline pilot" but you really should stop believing your own press.TC

 

[F9 Driver]

I KNOW I'm going to regret this, but....

For the sake of the original question:

Take NJA,

-100% better hotels - WE STAY AT SOME OF THE SAME, BUT NO DOUBT NJ STAYS AT BETTER HOTELS 9/10 TIMES.
-Crew meals of your choice unlike NONE at Frontier or the crap that they use to give - THE FIRST THOUSAND TIMES I ATE YARD BIRD SANDWITCHES FROM RUDIE'S AT 410 I THOUGHT IT WAS GREAT. NOW I LIKE BEING ABLE TO TAKE MY WIFE TO MORTON'S ON MY DAYS OFF.
- they airline you to work on day 1 and airline you home on day 7, NO commuting on your days off like at F9 or elsewhere - LIKE I SAID I DON'T / NEVER HAVE COMMUTE(ED)
-7&7 schedule does not suck, it beats being on reserve for 6 days then only having 2 days off, if you get lucky you get 3 days off, at least you will get 7 hard days off in a row - I THOUGHT THE SAME. NOW FOUR DAYS AWAY FROM HOME FEELS LIKE ALOT. TO EACH THEIR OWN.
-you get to keep all of your airline miles and hotel points - THAT WAS COOL. I'D RATHER HAVE JUMPSEAT PRIVS, NONREV FOR MY FAMILY, AND RECIP. AGREEMENTS WITH OTHER AIRLINES + MORE TIME TO USE THEM.
- NJA pays for your uniforms - AND THEY ARE BETTER LOOKING. NO HAT!!! AWSOME.
-NJA gives you free benefits(Medical,Dental,etc.), at F9 it will cost you close to $2000 per year if not more with a family - TRUE. BUT I GOT MORE THAN A 2000 PAY DIFERENTIAL TO MAKE UP FOR IT.
- Pay at NJA right now is very good, Pay at F9 is good also, but they are looking at a pay cut, the company was asking for a 50% cut and the union laughed, last message that I saw was about cutting pay for newhires, so who knows - HERE'S WHERE BAT$HIT2000 GOES FISHING. NEVER HAS THE COMPANY ASKED FOR A %50 PAY CUT NOR ARE WE IN A POSITION TO GIVE UP ANYTHING. WE HAVE A CONTRACT THAT IS IN FORCE PER THE RLA UNTIL WE NEGOTIATE ANOTHER. THIS TWIT IS A %10er THAT WE'RE GLAD TO BE RID OF. I JUST WISH HE/SHE WOULD GO FLY HIS/HER G-WIZZ AND BE HAPPY!

NJA is the way to go- FOR BATSKY - THANKS!

In the end I find myself agreeing with USMC319. If you aren't sure this is the place for you it probably isn't.

Best of luck!

 

[jetalc]

FWIW, my stress level has gone down tremendously since going to F9. Good people, good airplanes, good routes. I have several friends at NJA that have been there for some years, and love that lifestyle - for me, I like to know where I'm going to be the next month, and having to take off for a week, or in some cases, a month, doesn't really float my boat for the QOL issues.

For those Barstool Quarterbacks who say "the F9 business model doesn't work" need to do a little more research. This isn't meant to further aggravate those on this board who are obviously easily aggravated, it is simply a fact. How many airlines have lost money this past year? And longer? That doesn't mean their business model doesn't necessarily work, and anyone with a couple of brain cells and a TV can put together the facts regarding the rising costs and consistently low yields the industry has been subject to. Too many "experts" who really don't necessarily know what is going on over at the F9 General Offices, and would like you to believe that they're somehow "in the know." I would ask them directly how they can substantiate their "facts," but quite frankly, I don't really care why they're makin' this stuff up.

All I can say is that I'm very happy at F9 - I work to live instead of living to work, and I do this typically about 2-3 days at a time instead of seven or more in a row. Pay is very good at F9, but I'm not a terribly greedy person, so $140K+ per year (after a couple of years) is not too bad for a slouch like myself.

Good luck with your decision - others have already mentioned what a personal decision it is, and there is no right answer except within you. We'd love to see you on line at F9, especially since you got through a tough interview process, but there will be no hard feelings if you simply choose what's right for you. Take care.