NJA/NJI Question

[Spyguy]

Having read the previous couple of months' worth of threads, can someone (not the bitter ones) explain to an outsider why is it so important to the NJA pilots/union for NJA and NJI to merge? I understand why the union would love it, but why the pilots, who constantly claim that they do not want to "fly the lord god plane?" It seems that NJI guys want nothing to do with NJA and their union, so why is it so important for NJA guys and their union to try to force themselves on the guys over at NJI?

I am sure that this has been covered before indepth. Sorry to continue the Netjets "drama."

 

[miles otoole]

but why the pilots, who constantly claim that they do not want to "fly the lord god plane?"

Son, you had best capitalize the g in God when speaking of the beloved plane.

 

[Spyguy]

lol, I am not trying to make fun of anyone or their situation. I realize that this topic has been brought up before, but no one really answered the question. If it is about the plane or the choice, why not apply there or another corp. that flies them? Why try to bring together two groups, where it seems obvious that one side does not want to play?

 

[old*art]

If NJI flew skateboards the pressure for the merger would be there. Some of the older timers correct me - but scope - only one company essentially - became important when Lorenzo was looting one airline and selling the parts to another he owned - almost destroying both while lining his pockets. A good scope clause tries to prevent that. NJA pilots were also promised NJI would go away - so it has to do with holding someone to their word also.

 

[Spyguy]

Thanks for the background. I am still more of a non-union person myself, but to each their own. One thing I learned long ago in life, and it applies to military and civilian life, if its not in writing then don't believe it because there is a reason that its not written down.

 

[Grizz]

It's in writing now just waiting for a vote count on the 21st.

 

[Spyguy]

Grizz,
Where is it in writing? I only see this in the TA and to my non legal mind says that NJA/NJI question can be decided by a board. Doesn't exactly seem like a done deal.

Copied from LOA

2. Other than the aircraft described in paragraph 1 above, the Gulfstream aircraft operated and/or managed and to be operated and managed by NetJets International, Inc. are excepted from the Basic Agreement.
3. The scope exception contained in this Letter of Agreement is without
prejudice to the positions of the parties in any future legal proceeding, in which the question whether NetJets International, Inc. and NetJets Aviation, Inc. constitute a “single carrier” for labor relations purposes is to be determined.
4. This Letter of Agreement shall be inadmissible, and shall not be referred to, in any legal, administrative or contractual proceeding in which a “single carrier” determination involving NetJets International, Inc. and the Company is requested. Neither party shall make any evidentiary submission or argument inconsistent with this Letter of Agreement.​

 

[Grizz]

Who casts not up his eye to the sun when it rises? But who takes off his eye from a comet when that breaks out? Who bends not his ear to any bell which upon any occasion rings? But who can remove it from that bell which is passing a piece of himself out of this world? No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

John Donne

 

[gutshotdraw]

Wow Grizz,

Thought I was hearing Doc Bayless in my AP High School English class again. As Hans Gruber would say "the benefits of a classical education." Very nice.

Nevertheless,

It seems as though, since TA ratification seems certain, the focus has shifted almost entirely to the single carrier issue. Let's review:

1. The scope exception requiring the Gulfstreams to be operated by NJI will be removed from the new CBA. Score 1 point for IBT 1108.

2. The TA calls for a three year moratorium by IBT 1108 on the filing of any single carrier action. Score 1 point for RTS.

3. NJA pilots will be allowed to bid an agreed upon percentage of open NJI Gulfstream positions while retaining their NJA IBT 1108 seniority. Score 1 1/2 points for IBT 1108.

4. By side agreement, operations by NJI vis-a-vis NJA prior to date of signing may not be introduced into evidence in any single-carrier proceeding. Score 1 points for RTS.

5. IBT 1108 is 2300 dues paying members strong with the backing of a national labor union and the financial, legal, and logistical support that implies. Score 1 point for IBT 1108.

6. NJI has 275 non-union pilots, the majority of whom wish to remain so. Score 1/2 point for RTS.

Score: IBT 3 1/2 RTS 2 1/2 But wait, it's only the end of the first half!

Single carrier actions by previous airline unions (American Eagle being the only successful example) are filed primarily to prevent management from "whipsawing" of one labor group against the other. Threatening to give another group more flying and equipment if one group does not give in to management demands on pay, benefits, etc. If RTS had been whipsawing, the G-200's would have gone to NJI.

Three years may be a millisecond in geologic time but it is an eternity in economics and labor relations (See UAL, DAL, NWA, etc. for further review).

Having IBT's foot in the door with pilots on the property at NJI and all that implies may prove to be the critical component of the entire saga.

RTS obviously has some really smart lawyers working for him to get a clause in the agreement limiting the legal discovery on any single carrier petition to only those events post CBA signing. That would indicate he has a legal plan to prevent single carrier and will use it when the time comes.

IBT 1108 will have three years to bank member dues to finance any legal action (which will run in the millions) and the ability to exert the same kind of pressure on management that helped bring about the current TA. The National Teamsters union probably won't be much help. They clearly don't understand aviation and the smartest thing NJA ever did was establish their own local.

The pilots of NJI largely wish to keep things status quo but will find they can have very little impact on the entire process aside from showing up for work, doing the job, and hoping for the best.

Remember also that there are many factors besides the ones listed above that would impact a single carrier hearing. The political leanings of the board members. The economic and political climate at the time of filing. The departure or death of one or more of the primary players in the next three years.

People on both sides of the argument must realize that proclamations of "It's iron-clad" or "It will NEVER happen" are equally ignorant of legal and political reality. Once again, here is the bottom line:

Is single carrier a possibility? Absolutely. Is it likely? Perhaps. Is it a slam dunk? Not even close.

 

[Cavpilot]

Gunshotdraw,
I think you analysis of the situation is right on the money, with 2 exceptions:

4. By side agreement, operations by NJI vis-a-vis NJA prior to date of signing may not be introduced into evidence in any single-carrier proceeding. Score 1 points for RTS.

I think this one is actually pretty much a wash, probably even leaning toward IBT 1108. The reason is that the Gulfstream exclusion is now contained in LOU which is inadmissible for either side.

The pilots of NJI largely wish to keep things status quo but will find they can have very little impact on the entire process aside from showing up for work, doing the job, and hoping for the best.

I believe the exact opposite is true. The NJI pilot group plays a huge role in how this thing turns out. If it appears that the writing is on the wall that an integration will happen, the pilots at NJI can either play ball or fight it. Either way it is their choice.

Let me talk a little bit about our union.

I understand why many NJI pilots don't like unions. Working in my family's business for 10 years made me not understand their use either. Take care of your people, treat them with dignity and respect, your employees will in turn take care of the company. After my first week at Comair, I understood clearly why there are unions.
When I first came to Executive Jet and was introduced to IBT 284, I was reminded of why I originally did not like unions. The local leadership were a bunch of idiots. They truly did us more harm than good. A real waste of dues (yea, I'm still bitter). When we had the opportunity to elect the Strong Union slate about a year ago, I was dubious. More Teamsters nonsense. I just wanted to rid myself of all of lies, dishonesty and incompetence that I had come to loath about the IBT.
Boy was I wrong. This union is no longer an embarrassment. On this board, all that you really see and hear about is contract negotiations. There is so much more going on besides that. We have an remarkable cadre of volunteers running the various committees. Here is one example; do NJI guys and gals like the hotels you stay in? Do you like the free breakfasts and other bennies? Be sure to thank the IBT 1108 Travel committee.

So anti-IBT guys, next time you see an NJA pilot at an FBO, ask them what they think of the union. I'm pretty sure you will get a positive response.