NJA KASE apporach question...

[RTRHD]

My last boss had a house in ASE. We were there once or twice a week the older I got the farther towards DBL my minimums got. I am with the guys that go around at DBL. I wonder what it would be like if an airplane pulled out on the runway and you had to make a low altitude go around. (What if there was a 2500 foot ceiling?) The missed approach criteria start at 2500 feet right? Just food for thought.

 

[Bandit60]

My last boss had a house in ASE. We were there once or twice a week the older I got the farther towards DBL my minimums got. I am with the guys that go around at DBL. I wonder what it would be like if an airplane pulled out on the runway and you had to make a low altitude go around. (What if there was a 2500 foot ceiling?) The missed approach criteria start at 2500 feet right? Just food for thought.

Could not agree more. VMC is the only way into Aspen...

I hear that the Avros or BAC146 that goin to Aspen are now going to be CRJ's. That will be scary.

 

[satpak77]

Guys, the Cat D or C or whatever is based on GROUNDSPEED.

uh, sorry, WRONG. Or maybe I am wrong, I need to start watching my ground speed as my DME ticks down to the runway and divert attention from flying....funny over the years at FlightSafety type rides and recurrent I never did this....better start now

(not)

at your next airline interview, please don't tell them you use groundspeed to determine approach category!

Lets re-quote AIM 5-4-7 (again)

5-4-7. Instrument Approach Procedures

a. Aircraft approach category means a grouping of aircraft based on a speed of VREF, if specified, or if VREF not specified, 1.3 VSO at the maximum certificated landing weight. VREF, VSO, and the maximum certificated landing weight are those values as established for the aircraft by the certification authority of the country of registry. Helicopters are Category A aircraft. An aircraft must fit in only one category. Pilots are responsible for determining and briefing which category minimums will be used for each instrument approach. If a higher approach speed is used on final that places the aircraft in a higher approach category, the minimums for the higher category must be used. Approaches made with inoperative flaps, circling approaches at higher-than normal straight-in approach speeds, and approaches made in icing conditions for some types of airplanes are all examples of situations that can necessitate the use of a higher approach category. See the following category limits:
1. Category A: Speed less than 91 knots.
2. Category B: Speed 91 knots or more but less than 121 knots.
3. Category C: Speed 121 knots or more but less than 141 knots.
4. Category D: Speed 141 knots or more but less than 166 knots.
5. Category E: Speed 166 knots or more.

NOTE-
V[SIZE=-1]REF[/SIZE] is the reference landing approach speed, usually about 1.3 times V[SIZE=-1]SO[/SIZE] plus 50 percent of the wind gust speed in excess of the mean wind speed (See 14 CFR Section 23.73). V[SIZE=-1]SO[/SIZE] is the stalling speed or the minimum steady flight speed in the landing configuration at maximum weight (See 14 CFR Section 23.49).​

Since Approach Category is derived from VREF (or) 1.3 VSO, lets take a look at how VREF and VSO are defined per the FAR Part 23, which certifies the airworthiness of aircraft:

http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part23-49-FAR.shtml

http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part23-73-FAR.shtml

Since VSO (and its derivative, VREF), are defined per the FAR's using CALIBRATED AIRSPEED, the "best-est" answer is that Approach Category is based on CAS, which according to FAR Part 1, means

Calibrated airspeed means the indicated airspeed of an aircraft, corrected for position and instrument error. Calibrated airspeed is equal to true airspeed in standard atmosphere at sea level.

So best-est answer is its based on CAS, real-world answer is to use IAS (unless someone has a CAS indicator, my King Air 350 does not...)

 

[GVFlyer]

Sorry guys, this straight from the AIM (PCG):

AIRCRAFT APPROACH CATEGORY- A grouping of aircraft based on a speed of 1.3 times the stall speed in the landing configuration at maximum gross landing weight. An aircraft must fit in only one category. If it is necessary to maneuver at speeds in excess of the upper limit of a speed range for a category, the minimums for the category for that speed must be used. For example, an aircraft which falls in Category A, but is circling to land at a speed in excess of 91 knots, must use the approach Category B minimums when circling to land. The categories are as follows:
a. Category A- Speed less than 91 knots.
b. Category B- Speed 91 knots or more but less than 121 knots.
c. Category C- Speed 121 knots or more but less than 141 knots.
d. Category D- Speed 141 knots or more but less than 166 knots.
e. Category E- Speed 166 knots or more.

(Refer to 14 CFR Part 97.)​

VVJM265 is rigtht...and I'm one of those guys that's going somewhere else if I'm not VMC at Red Table.

GV

 

[Bandit60]

Hey GVflyer...Im just wondering. What is your ref speed at max gross weight in landing config. for the G500 or G400?

I know very little about the Gulfstream but thought it could fly pretty slow on approach.

 

[VVJM265]

Good discussion folks. Fly safe everyone!

Cheers,
265
:beer:

 

[IP076]

Here's the answer to the original question.

If you are going into ASE on the IFR approach, and you are Cat D, then you can fly all the way to the final approach fix (Allix or Doype). At that point, if you see the airport, you can land. If you don't see the airport, you go miss. You can't legally go beyond the FAF without the airport in sight. Why? Because there are no minimums for you.

There's your answer.

Got a reference there chief? I'd like to know where you got this information, just curious because I've never heard it anywhere before.

 

[GravityHater]

You (cat D) say you go to the FAF but no further if you are not in vmc.

How do you handle communicating this to atc, just request the visual and then fly towards the map if you can't see anything? I would hate to surprise atc with this; is there some way to tell them what you are planning?

 

[satpak77]

Here's the answer to the original question.

If you are going into ASE on the IFR approach, and you are Cat D, then you can fly all the way to the final approach fix (Allix or Doype). At that point, if you see the airport, you can land. If you don't see the airport, you go miss. You can't legally go beyond the FAF without the airport in sight. Why? Because there are no minimums for you.

There's your answer.

You are wrong and will get killed someday. CAT D is NOT AUTHORIZED, at ALL, to fly this approach in IFR conditions. IAP's whole idea is to land, and since this is a circling approach, and you are CAT D, you cannot shoot it.

Its not "I can try it to Point XXX, then go somewhere else." Remember, Approaches start at the IAF, then IF, then FAF, then Missed Approach Point, then the Missed Approach Procedure.

If on your "missed segment" you category is in a Category not authorized (you are already D, so its not), you cannot fly the approach, since the MISSED APPROACH PROCEDURE is PART OF the overall INSTRUMENT APPROACH PROCEDURE.

Ie, terrain clearance based on speed, etc.

Lets RE-QOUTE THE AIM again

AIRCRAFT APPROACH CATEGORY- A grouping of aircraft based on a speed of 1.3 times the stall speed in the landing configuration at maximum gross landing weight. An aircraft must fit in only one category. If it is necessary to maneuver at speeds in excess of the upper limit of a speed range for a category, the minimums for the category for that speed must be used. For example, an aircraft which falls in Category A, but is circling to land at a speed in excess of 91 knots, must use the approach Category B minimums when circling to land. The categories are as follows:
a. Category A- Speed less than 91 knots.
b. Category B- Speed 91 knots or more but less than 121 knots.
c. Category C- Speed 121 knots or more but less than 141 knots.
d. Category D- Speed 141 knots or more but less than 166 knots.
e. Category E- Speed 166 knots or more.

So if you are CAT C but on the missed you are CAT D, you cannot shoot this approach.

lets look at the actual chart

http://myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/05889VDGC.PDF

see the missed approach path depicted? See the terrain? The TERPS people have decided that "hey planes at XXX speed just safely cannot do this approach" and thus CAT-D is not approved. This includes the "Missed Approach" portion, which must be flown should landing not be possible.

 

[CL60]

My buddy got asked a varitey of questions on the following below I was curious what would be correct.

Here is a link to the approach plates in KASE:

http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0603/05889VDGC.PDF
http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0603/05889LDE.PDF

OK here is the scenario: You are flying into KASE on the LOC or VOR approaches. We are a category D aircraft. The approach minimums for both approaches are clearly depicted as N/A for a Category D aircraft. Can you even shoot these approaches in IFR conditions? What about VFR? If so what would the approach minimums be? These are the only 2 approaches in KASE that are IFR approaches. I know alot of corporate airplanes that are cat D aircraft fly into KASE, how do they legally get in during IFR conditions? I know it is not a VFR only airport. If you can get in VFR do you start the approach IFR even though it is illegal because CAT D is NA?

I need some help.

Thanks.

Example: In a G450, (normally a CAT D bird), for example there is a Gulfstream ASC, (Additional Source of Cash), that allows you to dispatch as a CAT C aircraft. Just flip the placard over before you go.

There are several factors to consider; Make sure the release paperwork reflects CAT C. You must ensure a landing weight of less than 51,000 pounds, (going off of memory here), and double-check to ensure your approach climb numbers among others.

Boca Raton has the same problem as it relates to category.

 

[satpak77]

Example: In a G450, (normally a CAT D bird), for example there is a Gulfstream ASC, (Additional Source of Cash), that allows you to dispatch as a CAT C aircraft. Just flip the placard over before you go.

There are several factors to consider; Make sure the release paperwork reflects CAT C. You must ensure a landing weight of less than 51,000 pounds, (going off of memory here), and double-check to ensure your approach climb numbers among others.

Boca Raton has the same problem as it relates to category.

just curious how this is possible, especially the point about "ensure a landing weight of less than XXX" since App Cat is based on Max Gross Weigth VREF

 

[RTRHD]

just curious how this is possible, especially the point about "ensure a landing weight of less than XXX" since App Cat is based on Max Gross Weigth VREF

He is right ASC 320(opps) on a IV anyway. And 58,500 Lnd wt. normal on a IV is 66,000. (SP anyway)

 

[gutshotdraw]

No wonder people continue to crash airplanes.

1) On the approach plate, if the minima box states the speed in knots, your current ref speed for your approach configuration applies.

2) On the approach plate, if the minima box states a Category letter, your aircraft is limited to the lowest category under which it was certified regardless of your airspeed for the approach (and as Satpak points out, your airpseed may not exceed the max speed for that lower category at any time).

3) In the case of the G-IV, it is ASC 320 that allows approaches under Category C provided the aircraft is dispatched with a stated max landing weight under 58,500 pounds instead of the normal 66,000 pounds and the ASC 320 card in the cockpit is flipped over to MLW of 58,500.

4) Minimums are based on groundspeed???!!??? I hope that clown never flies my family.

In the specific case of the Aspen G-III crash, the aircraft was ILLEGAL to even attempt the approach in IMC because a G-III is Category D ONLY (full flap circle was never approved by FAA during G-III certification and full flaps is the only way you can get a G-III ref under 140 knots) and the Aspen approach minima indicate Category, not speed.

The 51,000 pound number CL60 references is an Approach Climb weight which will actually fluctuate based on current conditions. Most people only worry about landing weight but if you follow the Regulations and TERPS, you are supposed to reference the aircraft performance data and assure approach climb capability based on the given conditions.

As with any airport, if the aircraft can descend from MEA or MVA in visual conditions using normal manuevers, you can land regardless of your approach category.

And as with all operations, there is a difference between legal and safe. Just because the regulations and the performance books say I can legally circle a G-IV with ASC 320 at Aspen, I don't believe it can be done safely in anything other than perfect visibility below a cloud deck. Consequently, my policy has always been to fly to Allix and if I can't see the airport and land straight in by then, go missed. If you see the airport past Allix, a BAC-146 may be able to land straight in but a G-IV sure can't.

On a side note, there is a proprietary GPS approach for ASE awaiting FAA approval that provides a segmented arrival path roughly over the Roaring Fork river and Baro VNAV guidance to a DA. Minimums are around 600 AGL and 2 1/2 miles for G-IV and about 500 AGL and 2 miles for G-V and require special air crew training. I have flown it many times in the sim and is very slick, if not a bit scary. NJI spent years and thousands working on it but there has been resistance from ASE airport management and FAA is unwilling to approve it without the go-ahead from ASE officials. A precision departure procedure that would allow much higher weight takeoffs in IMC is also in a similar limbo. Unfortunately, even if approved, these procedures are the property of NJI and won't be available to other operators.

Bottom line, I hate Aspen airport and I'm sure most of you do too. If I can keep ASE trips every year in the single digits, I consider it a victory.

 

[GravityHater]

So your only option for ase in a cat D a/c are to ask for vectors at the MIA over the airport, and hope you see it?

 

[VVJM265]

satpak77, CL60 & gutshotdraw,
Really good input. I think this has turned into one of the better threads in a long while.

GV,
Thanks.

CL60,
Check PMs.

Back to trying to fix the dead laptop...
265