NJA Captains do your F'ing job and take care of your FO's

[Diesel]

Look its pretty simple are there captains that don't take care of their crews? Yup. Are their FO's who don't do crap in the cabin because its below them? Yup. In every group you have people that aren't doing their job 100 percent.

Now blaming the captains for their own shortcomings of not knowing the contract is just sillly. If anything at least read the blue book. Should the captains be blamed for an FO not collecting all that overtime pay on FRDA or before 8am? Or do the FO's know about the overtime pay sections just didn't read the rest of the contract?

Common I'm all for acting like a crew but at some point you actually have to read the contract.

As far as fatigue calls go. Yup i've called in fatigue a bunch. I hope they are tracking every call because my body can only do so many 14/10's. The companies position is, we schedule it, you decide if you're safe. Fine with me if the schedule is unrealistic on the body clock, or how hard its humping on a 7 day tour.

 

[Seat 0A]

Now blaming the captains for their own shortcomings of not knowing the contract is just sillly.

My contention here is not that the Captains don't know the contract but rather why they choose to act like an A-teamer and not look out for the best interests of themselves and their FO. As I said in the original post, many of these probationary FO's really are looking to the left seat for guidance. They are in a "make no waves" mindset while in that first year and will fly tired if asked to.

 

[HiSpeedFlyer]

I have been at NJA for 7 years. I definately agree that there are many captains who are afraid to do the right thing. I get pissed when an FO on probation complains to me because his Cpt won't call in fatigued even though the FO told him that he was tired. I always tell the FO that HE can call in fatigued as well. He doesn't have to rely on the Capt. Of course, I realize that being on probation, it's probably tougher to undermine the Captain. Those that have been here a while know that an FO won't get fired for calling in fatigued. But you must understand their trepidation
That being said, if you are an FO who is OFF probation, then don't cry to me, "my Captain won't call in fatigued for us." As an FO, "YOU CAN CALL IN FATIGUED" for yourself.
If you are a Capt, don't be a wimp. Use your authority to look out for your crew, whether it's about crewfood, fatigue, illness or whatever.
I never hesitate to call in fatigued. I am an IOE-IP and know that newbies will get tired much quicker than normal crews because they have the added pressures of learning everything and performing to par. I always tell them that if they are fatigued, I will call in fatigued for the both of us.
Take control of your situation and do the right thing.

AMEN BROTHA!!
When this F/O is tired, thats where the ball stops rollin'.
It takes a crew to fly an airplane, kids, and without me, the plane aint going.
Its too bad people are too afraid to do what is right, whether if they are hungry, fatigued, or just not feeling up to par, because our owners are owed that.. they pay good money to be safe..period.

 

[Hogprint]

Flylow22 posted:

...Your dues money pays for that message board. Anyone who doesn't check that board regularly is both throwing away their dues money AND missing out on information that WILL cost them money on the road.

All NJAer's (especially new hires) reread Flylow's quote again.

We WOULD NOT be enjoying the fruits of our labors had that message board not been up and running at worst and at best it would have set the cause back many years IMO.

Remember also; it's more than the money. The scratch is nice, but the info can be priceless.

Become familiar with the CBA. Especially parts 19 & 28 if nothing else.

 

[FLYLOW22]

I've been flying fractional for 5 years. Never called in fatigue, and trust me, I've had my share of 14 hour days and 16 hour days. What you are really saying is that,with all your experiences at netjets ,no one goes that long without calling in fatigued. I mean, you actually say that no one goes 11 months without doing it. To me, that's pathetic. I thought you guys had it easy at netjets? That's all you talk about is how good it is over there; are you now saying that they work everyone so hard that fatigue is a problem across the board? Cry me a river.

No one ever said it was easy. No one ever said that we HAVE to make it harder than it needs to be either.

We DID say that we have the tools to opt out of further duty in the interests of safety.

Can you say the same? I hope that you can say yes!

 

[doylehargraves]

All I'm saying is I've never felt fatigued and, the 16 hour days I refer to were travel home days on airlines. I have no problem calling in fatigue; however, I've just never felt that way. The point here is that you guys feel like you should do it a couple of times a year because you can. To me, that's nothing to brag about, that's just being an incompetent lazy employee abusing company policy under the protection of a union. You netjet guys are just as miserable now as you were pre-contract; admit it.

 

[tk855]

All I'm saying is I've never felt fatigued and, the 16 hour days I refer to were travel home days on airlines. I have no problem calling in fatigue; however, I've just never felt that way. The point here is that you guys feel like you should do it a couple of times a year because you can. To me, that's nothing to brag about, that's just being an incompetent lazy employee abusing company policy under the protection of a union. You netjet guys are just as miserable now as you were pre-contract; admit it.

I think you are reading way too far into this "tool" we have at our disposal to assist us in being proffesional aviators. I apologize if you do not understand the concept, especially after claiming five years experience in the fractional industry! I also fear the danger you expose yourself, your crew, and your owners to by not being a proffesional and knowing when to say when. Perhaps you might want to re-evaluate your thought process and approach to this career you have chosen?

 

[acaTerry]

My contention here is not that the Captains don't know the contract but rather why they choose to act like an A-teamer and not look out for the best interests of themselves and their FO.

EXACTLY. I have rarely called fatigued, and when I am sick I call in sick. In these cases I have never, ever gotten any grief by the company over it. I do however, get the occasional ration (maybe teasing but it seethed of disdain) by the Captains who just happen to be east-coast based guys. Sorry, but a 0440 airline from PHX to EWR followed by a cab to TEB, then a string of "zero dark-thirty" shows makes me tired. Especially after having 3 off after the 6 day tour. I don't care if it's done all the time in the X. That's why I stayed out of the X. I know my contract, I fly the contract. I consider myself one of NJA's best FO's and have even gotten letters from the company regarding passengers who wrote in (I'd rather a tip! ). But man, don't screw with my rest or my health. I've said it on the 1108 boards and I'll say it here...A-teamers, knock it off. If you want to run yourself into the ground, volunteer to extend. Don't give your SIC krap over being sick or tired. If the company has no problem with it, neither should you. Keep in mind, that 14 hour limit, fatigue / sick policy may be harder to keep next time we negotiate if you keep making it a tough call for your FO to make and they never use it.
Drink school and stay in milk.

 

[realityman]

I have been at NJA for 7 years. I definately agree that there are many captains who are afraid to do the right thing. I get pissed when an FO on probation complains to me because his Cpt won't call in fatigued even though the FO told him that he was tired. I always tell the FO that HE can call in fatigued as well. He doesn't have to rely on the Capt. Of course, I realize that being on probation, it's probably tougher to undermine the Captain. Those that have been here a while know that an FO won't get fired for calling in fatigued. But you must understand their trepidation
That being said, if you are an FO who is OFF probation, then don't cry to me, "my Captain won't call in fatigued for us." As an FO, "YOU CAN CALL IN FATIGUED" for yourself.
If you are a Capt, don't be a wimp. Use your authority to look out for your crew, whether it's about crewfood, fatigue, illness or whatever.
I never hesitate to call in fatigued. I am an IOE-IP and know that newbies will get tired much quicker than normal crews because they have the added pressures of learning everything and performing to par. I always tell them that if they are fatigued, I will call in fatigued for the both of us.
Take control of your situation and do the right thing.

I agree with everything except the sentence in bold. This is exactly the attitude we have to teach the F/O's to ignore. Calling in fatigued IS NOT undermining the captain. It's ENHANCING safety, for the captain too. A fatigue call should not be looked at as harming anyone. I try very hard to teach my IOE's about this.

I also tend to agree with SEAT that the captains here at NJA have a responsibility to provide necessary guidance to the new guys, whether they're IOE-IP's or not. Actually, these days there's so much to cover in IOE that it's near impossible for the IOE-IP's to cover everything that would be helpful to the newhire. That's where the rest of our captains must step up.

However, if the newhires aren't even going to make an effort to read their conatracts, well, there's only so much any of us can to do to help that person. I had a recent IOE be scheduled to do something illegal (per the CBA) by the company. I told him he had the makings of a great grievance. He had no clue about it. I told him what section of the contract was being violated. Then I asked to see his contract so I could show him. And he told me he doesn't carry it with him! So the guy doesn't know his contractual rights, but doesn't want to be bothered to have it with him (or the Bluebook) so he can look things up. Being fairly new, I nicely advised him that it would be in his best interest to have it with him on subsequent tours, and maybe even open it once in a while. Will he do it? If not, I don't believe our captains are responsible for his ignorance. Especially 11 months into the new job.

 

[Guitar rocker]

All I'm saying is I've never felt fatigued and, the 16 hour days I refer to were travel home days on airlines. I have no problem calling in fatigue; however, I've just never felt that way. The point here is that you guys feel like you should do it a couple of times a year because you can. To me, that's nothing to brag about, that's just being an incompetent lazy employee abusing company policy under the protection of a union. You netjet guys are just as miserable now as you were pre-contract; admit it.

Oh, so NOW your 16 hour duty day all of a sudden involves travel. I see. You must be a supreme super being to have NEVER felt fatigued. Man, how do YOU do it? So you can wake up at 2 in the morning for a 3am show and pull a 14 hour duty day and feel great??? And then do it all over again and again and let me guess, feel great with not an ounce of being a little bit fatigued? Whats the secret there? Must be those flinstone vitamins! AMAZING!

 

[old*art]

I am not going to say it does not happen, but I instruct and get the "noone told me" all the time. "Well what about where you initialed you had received this training ?" "Oh, well , maybe someone did tell me and I just forgot or maybe I need to stay in the books more." In all due fairness, NJA is like a fire hose for the first six to twelve months, depending on your learning curve - and please SPARE ME any more retired airline pilots - as a group, not individually !!

 

[Diesel]

To me, that's nothing to brag about, that's just being an incompetent lazy employee abusing company policy under the protection of a union. You netjet guys are just as miserable now as you were pre-contract; admit it.

admit it you're an a teamer who will continue to fly long after you were exhausted. Or you just don't have the experience to know when you're past the point of no return.

 

[IronManNDFW]

What are you talking about. He works for FLOPS! We love 16 hour days!

And can't wait for our contract!

 

[RNObased]

How about posting this in our crew room lounge where actual pilots that work for NJ can answer?

Of course most of what your upset at is easily looked up in the contract and on the union website.

I'm not going to answer and start any speculation on something I don't know the other side of the story to.

The answer to this is that he would have to post his name on the union site. It is easy to scream foul when you can do it without someone knowing who you are.

As for the rest of the questions, the FO's need to take some responsiblity for their worlds. Read the contract, do some homework, ask some questions, don't post BS on a public website where idiots like doylehargraves post and expect good answers.

 

[RNObased]

I've been flying fractional for 5 years. Never called in fatigue, and trust me, I've had my share of 14 hour days and 16 hour days. What you are really saying is that,with all your experiences at netjets ,no one goes that long without calling in fatigued. I mean, you actually say that no one goes 11 months without doing it. To me, that's pathetic. I thought you guys had it easy at netjets? That's all you talk about is how good it is over there; are you now saying that they work everyone so hard that fatigue is a problem across the board? Cry me a river.

So you are proud of this doyle??? Never called in fatigued? And you have had many a 16 hrs duty day. God, what a putz. I feel sorry for your pax, because you obviously don't know your own limitations and could overshoot them without even knowing you did it.

You took one person's post and threw the whole NJA pilot group under the bus.

 

[rettofly]

....there was the amateur porn star tryout next to your room the night before, and you werent sleeping regardless of the pillows over your head or earplugs in your ears.

I'll bet the porn stars were pros on the TV.

 

[HiSpeedFlyer]

....there was the amateur porn star tryout next to your room the night before, and you werent sleeping regardless of the pillows over your head or earplugs in your ears.

I'll bet the porn stars were pros on the TV.

I'm tellin' ya, no way I could make it up..... It is absolutlely a wild story to hear over a coupla beers :beer: if I meet you,They were definitely live, It wasnt on the TV, the walls were that thin! :blush:

 

[HiSpeedFlyer]

Once again, Doyle, I pose the question: Is that Jealousy, Ignorance, or just plain stupidity I read in your post, Doyle?

You're being absurd calling us out on this, man, especially when you freely admit you fly under a direct violation of FAR 91.13, careless and reckless operation of an aircraft.

If you are tired, you are worse than if you were drunk. Read the statistics.
The proof is there in bold print.

You can't call fatigued? You must be jealous. I would be too. I would also not work there, but thats MHO. You won't call fatigued? You must be Ignorant, to jeapordize not only yourself, but your teammate and the folks behind you, or below you. You say we all abuse the "F" word at NetJets? Well, thats just plain ol' stupidity, Doyle.

Take your pick, man, either way you discredited yourself in this pilot group.....NEXT!!

 

[HiSpeedFlyer]

How can it be that in the last 2 months I have flown with 4 FO's that have all been here around 10-11 months and I am hearing the following from them all:

1. I have never once been through the fatigue process. We have had some long days but my captains (intentionally not capitalized) say that the company is keeping track of grievance calls.

2. I did not know that you could order more than 3 meals in a day.

3. I have had to stay in plenty of smoking rooms. My captains said that if we moved to another hotel we would not get our rest adjusted.

4. I never heard of getting the 10 hours rest adjusted upon arrival at the hotel.

5. No idea what FRDA or RAATS stand for.

6. My other captains have never told me what is MEL'd on the plane, I don't even know where to look.

There are others. I know, I know, they should know their contract, etc. But they are still looking up to the Captain in many cases for guidance as they try to adjust to the NJA way.

Number 1 simply blows me away. How the hell can someone be here for nearly a year and not have had their captain call in fatigued for the crew? This is nuts as we all know what an average tour is like. A note from GH comes out nearly every month telling you to use your fatigue policy the way it was intended to be used and you still can't muster up the courage? Should I assume that I am just working that much harder and that is why I have legitimately fatigued nearly once per tour?

And don't attempt to justify it by saying you are saving the FO's job because he/she is on probation. If you are fatigued and you don't get some rest the outcome could be much worse. This company isn't going to terminate a probationary pilot for a legitimate fatigue call or moving from unsat/unsafe accommodations.

Ok. Your turn to be CAPTAIN.

Very curious, Seat 0A, couple of quick questions for you ( and please, sir, I am not calling you out at all)

Number one: Did these FO's read the union board at all?? A lot of good info, sorted from the daily whininig and BS that is on there, is disseminated in those pages, hence why this FO is on there keeping up with current events, even if I am a thickheaded opinionated SOB.

Number two, what fleet is this on, 'cause to be honest I don't see too many captains like described in 1,3, and 6. In a matter of fact, most of em made sure we were exactly on the same page.... I hope this isn't a new trend at NJA.

Number three, what type of person were these FO'S? Were they proactive types, borderline zero pulse fellas forced from another end of the industry?

Number four, did any of them carry their blue book or contract with them, or at least have the number to the union steward?

I vote that you pose this very question on the union board because at the least this is a disturbing trend that can be reversed quickly with a little proactivity from the pilot group.

Carry on, folks, I'm off to go hit some baseballs.
Sincerely,
HiSpeedFlyer
Pissing the whole world off 8 at a time.

 

[fischman]

All I'm saying is I've never felt fatigued and, the 16 hour days I refer to were travel home days on airlines. I have no problem calling in fatigue; however, I've just never felt that way. The point here is that you guys feel like you should do it a couple of times a year because you can. To me, that's nothing to brag about, that's just being an incompetent lazy employee abusing company policy under the protection of a union. You netjet guys are just as miserable now as you were pre-contract; admit it.

I stand in awe of your awesomeness.uke:

What makes you believe that we "should do it a couple of times a year because we can"? It is a provision in our contract which protects us.

Also, our CEO, Richard Santulli has personally told ME that he does NOT want us flying tired. Our IBT1108 E-board president Bill Olsen, has personally told me he does not want us flying tired. BOTH have told ME that they will stand beside me in support when I tell them I an too tired to fly.

You tell me who is miserable. I see more fingers pointing in your direction than mine.

I will support any pilot who says he is too tired to safely complete a mission. Even you.