NJ Pilots, what would you do?

[CL300Pilot]

Are you seriously serious by answering the "bickering" question NO? NetJet pilots are notorious for bickering, belly aching, or being crybabies whatever you want to call it.

It appears to me that just about all pilots will complain and whine about anything. It is unfortunately a part of the type A personality.

 

[CL300Pilot]

Fly High...........

Wow! I never figured that a few simple questions from me while I was looking for some guidance/opinions would evolve/mutate into such a conversation. Is there a lot of this bickering at NJ?

Welcome to the wonderful world of thread highjacking.

 

[FLYLOW22]

CitationShares didn't have to answer the NetJet pay raise by giving us even more money that NetJets got, but they did...that's what makes CS a premire player player in this fractional thing. Why didn't Flex or Options do the same? They are both good companies with great people but the NetJet TA did not affect them.

Why didn't CS raise the bar for their boys in blue prior to the NJA TA then? You know, if they are such the major player.

Me thinks you are more of a widget than you are led to believe.

What kind of non economics did you get besides the money? You know, non economics... then things that feel good but people don't really talk about all that much. Scheduling, vacation, grievance, seniority rights, merger protections, scope and recognition, management rights, furlough and recall, training, moving expenses, sick leave with pay, life insurance, short term disability, long term disability (that measn you are paid when hurt), leave of absence, representation when in the office, etc.

Yeah sure. You guys got money. Are you really "one step ahead" of the NJA pilots though? You know... looking at the total package. I invite your group to truly raise the bar. It takes effort and "belly aching", time and sacrifice.

Not trying to knock what you guys have over there. You seem to have good a labor/management relationship from my perspective. Management commands and you do.

FLEX and FLO are absolutely affected by labor costs in the industry. FLO is financially on the ropes and taking life support payiments from it's parent to keep the lights on so a payraise is out. FLEX is just too damned stubborn if anything and if they don't watch it, will end up with a Union in house before you know it.

CS saw the writing on the wall. They needed to make the employees as CS happy with the minimum of expense and trouble. How is that done? MONEY. Cold, hard, ditry stinking money. It's easy to satisfy short term with lots of money but money ain't everything.

Sometimes you just need cuddle time too.

 

[RNObased]

Netjetwife:

Do you lead the Union radical fundamentalist movement? You all are almost like terrorists, pushing your beliefs, your radical pro-union viewpoints.

Ease off.

Well Rocky you are almost like an steet person..... Spewing crazy statements left and right to passers by... Yelling that the end is near, while under the influance of a bottle of Nighttrain.....

 

[Humphreybogart]

I know the NetJet TA had alot to do with why we got our raise. What I am saying is that CS did not HAVE to give us the raise, we didn't vote on anything, we were just handed a raise without anyone asking. Call it what you want, but I call it management appreciating what the pilots are doing, and giving them what management feels they deserve.

Am I wrong in assuming that the lump sum you NetJet guys got was NOT a bonus, however back pay from the time you guys/gals were in negiotiations?

 

[Diesel]

humphry how can you say you know that nj pilots got you your raise and then in the next sentance say that the company did it because they were good guys.

Which is it?

Oh yeah it was to keep the union off the property. Enjoy your schedule shift with no way to stop it from happening.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Does CS pay overtime and if so, how does it work? And does CS pay per diem, provide crew food or a combination of the two? Lastly, does CS do 401K matching?

Not trying to start a flame war, just curious how those things work at CS. I've heard rumors but I'd like to hear the info from the CS guys here.

 

[Humphreybogart]

humphry how can you say you know that nj pilots got you your raise and then in the next sentance say that the company did it because they were good guys.

Which is it?

Oh yeah it was to keep the union off the property. Enjoy your schedule shift with no way to stop it from happening.

The NetJet pilots did NOT get us a raise, unless some of your rank and file went to Greenwich and demanded one for the CS guys. We recieved our raise "inlight" of yours. Maybe I'm taking your statement too literal.

Guitar Guy, the answer is yes to all of your questions.

 

[Diesel]

So you don't think that NJ guys had anything to do with you getting a raise. CS did the smart thing and matched the pay right away to avoid all the crap that's going on at Flex and Flops. They knew the pilots would start rumbling.

While the answer may be yes to guitar's questions how about actually answering the question.

How much is OT on an hourly basis?
Do you get OT if you start work before 8am and how much?
Do you get OT if you start work before 8am and go past 9hrs of duty if so how much
do you get OT after 12 hours of duty? How much?
Crew food do you have to pay for it?
When is crew food provided or is it anytime the crew is hungry?
Does the crew have to pay for that food in any way or is it taken from perdiem in any way?
What is the Pay if you do not arrive home by 2400lcl on your last day?
Do then then take a day off of your next tour?
Did you ever get that schedule shift figured out where you lost a day or two of off time?

Those are the questions that really matter. We all know what NJ's rules are on the subject but CS tends not to have the same information out there. It would help a lot.

 

[Humphreybogart]

So you don't think that NJ guys had anything to do with you getting a raise.

The GUYS didn't, the UNION of the guys did. Did you or any of your buds go to Greenwich yourself for a face to face? I am glad your UNION got you the raise. Yes, it was a long time comming, but I am still glad to be at CS. Remember, money isn't everything, it's QOL and how you're treated by the powers above, and I think our "powers above" treat us very good. So good that we DON't have to pay union dues, but still get to reap your benefits. I am home every other weekend, no schedule swap during the weekends, big deal about shifting our schedule, at CS we're more team players and not complainers. I bet you pay alot more in union dues during the year than what we make for 1 day. Guitar Guy, overtime is 1.5 times our daily rate.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Guitar Guy, overtime is 1.5 times our daily rate.

When do you folks get overtime? After 12 hours of duty? How about on the first day of a tour - any difference for that?

And what about crew food? I asked if you got per diem, crew food or a combination of the two. Your answer was "yes" which was a bit confusing.

What does CS do for 401K matching? Again you mentioned that all answers to my questions were "yes" but that doesn't really explain the 401K matching.

And I'd be curious to know about the answers to Diesel's questions about compensation (either money or time off) for an after-midnight return on your last day of work.

Thanks for answering my questions. I'll look forward to reading your answers.

 

[Diesel]

Okay we all know you're happy. What about answering the questions posted above. What about crew food, OT and medical. QOL? How about having 3 weeks off for vacation and not training on my days off. Yeah yeah yeah i know it's changing but until it happens you're at their will. They can also change it right back.

You're also wrong about the guys at nj getting you a raise. Who do you think the union is? It's every man/woman out there with a gold tie that was making sure the bar was going to be raised. Our EB is built by FO's and junior captains. The comittees are all staffed by volunteers that make sure the company lives up to it has in writing.

You don't think it's a big deal to shift schedules? What about the two days pay off that you lost. Is that just a gift back to the company for having a job? Why don't they do the right thing and give you some pay for that shift?

 

[FLYLOW22]

Call it what you want, but I call it management appreciating what the pilots are doing, and giving them what management feels they deserve.

Am I wrong in assuming that the lump sum you NetJet guys got was NOT a bonus, however back pay from the time you guys/gals were in negiotiations?

The timing of said raise coincidentally occured right after NJA contract rafification. Un huh... Put down the koolaid dude. CS management gave you guys a raise because they were worried about talent retention and recruitment of the future. They realized that it's not hard to find pilots... it is difficult to find the best though when paying scratch. They took the logical and cheap way out of a nowin scenario. FLO and FLEX is either in that bad of shape or has management that stupid to ignore giving their pilots raises.

The bonus was a bonus. It was not retro techincally or it would have been taxed a bit differently and it would have been payable to all of the NJAers out there who moved on to other things regardless of reason (for the time they were here). Bonus pay goes to those on property at time of signing.

 

[FLYLOW22]

The NetJet pilots did NOT get us a raise, unless some of your rank and file went to Greenwich and demanded one for the CS guys. We recieved our raise "inlight" of yours. Maybe I'm taking your statement too literal.

Guitar Guy, the answer is yes to all of your questions.

You were a former career airforce weren't you? Not knocking them but some of them seem to ake things a little (HUUUUGELY) tad bit literal.

Management cares not of deserving(except when it comes to bonuses for them). They are all about the dollars involved. They will treat you well only if it comes down toyou performing your job to the level it takes to get their numbers.

2 QUESTIONS: Did the CS pilots deserve a pay raise prior to the actual raise they recieved and if so why did they not get it until after contract ratification at NetJets?

If CS pilots deserved it (and they do and did), why did it take a watershed industy changing event to pay CS dudes and dudesses what they should have been making years ago? Ok, that's another question too but it's a follow-up question.

If you can't see the writing on the wall "sweetheart", we can help you... but then again, you seek no saving. You are happy in what you percieve as Xanadu thanking the master that threw you table scraps "in light" of the industry changing events that threatened their business model. I salute you. Not many Type A pilots enjoy being "handled" the way you seem to like.

You found your niche.

 

[netjetwife]

NJWife,

I am not barking up your tree, nor am I barking up the tree of anyone else. I am just trying to get a grasp on the conversation. I do not know if all who are "bickering" on this thread are from NJ or not. I am learning as I go.

FlyHigh, you will soon discover that the anti-union faction are quick to jump into threads where the NJ group is discussing the issues with interested pilots, such as yourself. As one of our pilots--Guitar Guy, whom I know personally--had offered to help you out with specific info in a PM, I felt that the original purpose of the thread had been dealt with and saw no harm in broadening the discussion to include the advantages of a union. When a pilot is looking at the fractional industry, it is a difference that should be considered. My pro-union comments were made in direct response to a post that NJ is now an attractive option because of their new contract. It was still relevant to the thread's intent of looking at NJ as a career move.

Who "high-jacked" the thread? An anti-union poster. Were we "bickering"? It may well sound that way to outsiders, but to the NJ group it was just another effort to defend their right to have a union and to point out the advantages of doing so. I totally agree with Diesel that you don't hear those conversations among the NJ pilots and their spouses. Certainly, the contract issues were debated, but the need for the union is obvious to all of us. Suffice it to say, that anti-union posters are NOT NJ pilots.

Those who stand up for themselves are never popular with people who think the pilots should just be happy to have the job. What surprises me is that other pilots will label that legitimate right as "whining" and call fellow pilots "crybabies" for working to improve their situation and pay.